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#991 oldnews

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:46 AM

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the salary cap is going to start going up much, much more slowly when the players' percentage of revenue goes down significantly in the new cba, and as the league's ability to find new revenue streams starts to reach a point of diminishing returns.

i'd expect we'll see a 20-25% salary rollback and a salary cap of $50-57 million when the new cba comes into effect, and it will rise much more slowly than it has over the last 8 years.


I don't buy this idea that the league could turn around and drop the salary cap by 13-20 million - it makes absolutely no sense, and would force a restructuring of half the teams in the NHL, a wave of salary dumping, and a complete disruption to the most powerful teams in the NHL - Boston, New York, LA, Vancouver, etc would all be seriously undermined, and their talent thinned out - not to mention that the behaviour of teams on the UFA market have clearly indicated that no one anticipates this happening - if I were betting, I'd put my money on not going to happen.
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#992 Millerdraft

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:18 AM

ok WHL this is starting to deteriorate.
You asked for an example of a guy who could still play physical hockey late into his 30s so I gave you the most obvious one, to which you respond that it's a desperate argument.


20g 22a 127 hits in 69gp at age 40:

http://www.nhl.com/i...avid=nhl-search

People are okay with Jason Arnott at age 38 on a 1-year deal. That would be the same as Doan on a three year deal today.
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#993 Millerdraft

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:27 AM

Seriously I believe what Miller says usually and he is right all the time.

I'd like to say this is absolutely, categorically false. Just recently I suggested Gillis wouldn't sign Schneider for more than $3.25m when Jimmy Howard signed a two-year/$4.5m deal. Gillis went out and gave him $4m.

I may be right more often than not but that's about it. I'm just making educated guesses for the most part.
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#994 SunnyHours

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:05 PM

I don't buy this idea that the league could turn around and drop the salary cap by 13-20 million - it makes absolutely no sense, and would force a restructuring of half the teams in the NHL, a wave of salary dumping, and a complete disruption to the most powerful teams in the NHL - Boston, New York, LA, Vancouver, etc would all be seriously undermined, and their talent thinned out - not to mention that the behaviour of teams on the UFA market have clearly indicated that no one anticipates this happening - if I were betting, I'd put my money on not going to happen.


The league won't reduce the salary cap without rolling back player's salaries.
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#995 Drybone

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:06 PM

I'd like to say this is absolutely, categorically false. Just recently I suggested Gillis wouldn't sign Schneider for more than $3.25m when Jimmy Howard signed a two-year/$4.5m deal. Gillis went out and gave him $4m.

I may be right more often than not but that's about it. I'm just making educated guesses for the most part.


My respect for you just went way up. B)
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#996 tas

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:12 PM

I don't buy this idea that the league could turn around and drop the salary cap by 13-20 million - it makes absolutely no sense, and would force a restructuring of half the teams in the NHL, a wave of salary dumping, and a complete disruption to the most powerful teams in the NHL - Boston, New York, LA, Vancouver, etc would all be seriously undermined, and their talent thinned out - not to mention that the behaviour of teams on the UFA market have clearly indicated that no one anticipates this happening - if I were betting, I'd put my money on not going to happen.


did you miss the part about the 20-25% salary rollback, which is exactly what happened last time? what that means is that every single existing nhl contract has its value (and therefore cap hit) reduced by that percentage. in other words, the sedins would be making ~$4.5 million per year instead of $6.1 million and so on.
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#997 Boudrias

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:24 PM

did you miss the part about the 20-25% salary rollback, which is exactly what happened last time? what that means is that every single existing nhl contract has its value (and therefore cap hit) reduced by that percentage. in other words, the sedins would be making ~$4.5 million per year instead of $6.1 million and so on.

That sounds good but how do you get that past the courts? Teams sign player contracts with all sorts of clauses. The idea that a signed contract could arbitrarily have the payment reduced seems like a lawsuit a comin. If the CAP was reduced team payrolls would have to be reduced by moving players off the roster. There could be some high priced help playing their contracts out in the AHL. That could be possible if the NHL allowed teams to do so.
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#998 tas

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:27 PM

That sounds good but how do you get that past the courts? Teams sign player contracts with all sorts of clauses. The idea that a signed contract could arbitrarily have the payment reduced seems like a lawsuit a comin. If the CAP was reduced team payrolls would have to be reduced by moving players off the roster. There could be some high priced help playing their contracts out in the AHL. That could be possible if the NHL allowed teams to do so.


the nhlpa agrees to it during collective bargaining. do you people not remember last time? the nhl proposed a hard cap, the nhlpa counter offered a 24% salary rollback, and when all was said and done the nhl got both. the players agreed to it then and if they want to play hockey in the near future they'll likely have to agree to it again.
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#999 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:31 PM

A source is saying the San Jose Sharks are among the favorites to sign Shane Doan. The Sharks have flown “under the radar.”

http://www.csnbayare...43&feedID=10290
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#1000 Jester13

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:40 PM

A source is saying the San Jose Sharks are among the favorites to sign Shane Doan. The Sharks have flown “under the radar.”

http://www.csnbayare...43&feedID=10290


Meh, I don't buy it. When Doan's family would ostensibly see Doan end his career in BC, along with the whole Gilman side of things, I assume this article is the SJ guy just trying to get some readers. I guess any news is still better than no news :)
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#1001 Franz Liszt

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:45 PM

Meh, I don't buy it. When Doan's family would ostensibly see Doan end his career in BC, along with the whole Gilman side of things, I assume this article is the SJ guy just trying to get some readers. I guess any news is still better than no news :)


And a lot of the Sharks fans are commenting on how they will probably not get Doan, and that Doug Wilson is only a tire kicker and stuff like that.

So yeah, seems highly unlikely.
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#1002 MikeBossy

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:49 PM

the nhlpa agrees to it during collective bargaining. do you people not remember last time? the nhl proposed a hard cap, the nhlpa counter offered a 24% salary rollback, and when all was said and done the nhl got both. the players agreed to it then and if they want to play hockey in the near future they'll likely have to agree to it again.

Not exactly sure why we are debating this ina thread about Doan - back on topic I have to admire Shane for remaining loyal to the Coyotes. As I have said before he must realize that the Coyotes are a sinking ship - I mean seriously if the potential new owner can't find the extra 20 million as has been reported how the hell will he manage when they post losses over the next few years. What I truly can't believe is that other owners allow this team to remain in Phoenix run by the NHL. And as has been shown the fans in Phoenix don't want the team. Time for ol Gary to suck it up, bury his Brian Burke sized ego and move the team somewhere profitable.
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#1003 Millerdraft

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:08 PM

the salary cap is going to start going up much, much more slowly when the players' percentage of revenue goes down significantly in the new cba, and as the league's ability to find new revenue streams starts to reach a point of diminishing returns.

i'd expect we'll see a 20-25% salary rollback and a salary cap of $50-57 million when the new cba comes into effect, and it will rise much more slowly than it has over the last 8 years.

did you miss the part about the 20-25% salary rollback, which is exactly what happened last time? what that means is that every single existing nhl contract has its value (and therefore cap hit) reduced by that percentage. in other words, the sedins would be making ~$4.5 million per year instead of $6.1 million and so on.

The league won't reduce the salary cap without rolling back player's salaries.


So basically if Gillis signed Doan to a 4-year/$24m contract it would end up being anywhere from a $4.5m-$4.8m cap hit under a $53m-$56m cap ceiling** and I think it's pretty safe to say that the cap would probably be back to $70.m in the fourth year of that contract.

Does that notion change anyone else's perspective on Doan's value in year #4 of that deal?

Edit: **There is no way the reduction in the cap is not an identical percentage to that of the rollback in salary considering the fact that Bettman told the BoG to "go about their business as usual" on July 1st.

Edited by Millerdraft, 04 August 2012 - 01:12 PM.

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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#1004 WHL rocks

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:09 PM

if you are asking this, you didnt watch the game


Wrong, its a rhetorical question.
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#1005 Sharpshooter

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:11 PM

A source is saying the San Jose Sharks are among the favorites to sign Shane Doan. The Sharks have flown “under the radar.”

http://www.csnbayare...43&feedID=10290



I thought winning a Stanley Cup was of most importance to him??
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#1006 Canuck919191

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:14 PM

I thought winning a Stanley Cup was of most importance to him??


Yeah, it's a no-brainer to come to Vancouver. We have a long history of winning, especially compared to the Sharks... he'd be stupid not to come here :)
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#1007 Sharpshooter

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:19 PM

Yeah, it's a no-brainer to come to Vancouver. We have a long history of winning, especially compared to the Sharks... he'd be stupid not to come here :)



Better chance to win it here than there.
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#1008 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:23 PM

I thought winning a Stanley Cup was of most importance to him??


You never know, he might of changed his mind at the last minute. If I was Doan I would pick Vancouver though.

According to Jesse Spector of the Sporting News, he does have the option to sign a 1 year deal:

Shane Doan became a free agent on July 1. He determined that he would not make a decision on whether to leave the Phoenix Coyotes until July 9. When that came and went, Doan's new deadline for a decision was July 16. Then it was July 27, with Doan saying he wanted to make a decision quickly so that he could get his family settled for his kids to start the school year.


Here it is, August, and Doan still is a man without a contract. If he really wanted to leave the Coyotes, he would have done so by now. It is clear that the 35-year-old winger wants to stay in Phoenix, where he has played ever since the Coyotes moved from Winnipeg. So, why doesn't he?


Doan wants a multiyear deal, reportedly in the range of four years and $30 million. There's little doubt that he would be able to get it. But if he does not want to leave Phoenix, he has an option, even with the future of the Coyotes in doubt: sign a one-year contract.


Even if the sale of the Coyotes to Greg Jamison falls through, there is no way that the NHL would be able to relocate the franchise on such short notice, especially with everything else on the league's plate. If Doan wants to stay in Phoenix, and his continued extension of deadlines is a clear indication of his desires, then he should do what he wants. Nobody is stopping him. Give it another go with Mike Smith, Keith Yandle and Oliver Ekman-Larsson. If Doan wants to play for a contender, a team that just went to the Western Conference finals isn't a bad choice.


Would it be a gamble for Doan to leave money on the table now? He'd run the risk of injury, but it isn't as if he'd be hurt by CBA changes—at 36 next summer, Doan would qualify for unrestricted free agency even by the league's proposed 10-year standard, and it's not as if he would be looking for a decade-long deal.


There also is the chance that Doan could make more money by signing a one-year deal now, then going for a three or four-year deal next summer, with the Coyotes or otherwise. If Alex Semin can get $7 million from the Hurricanes on a one-year deal, why can't Doan get $8 million from Phoenix, especially considering that the Coyotes need to spend about that much to reach the (current CBA's) salary floor?


Doan made $22.75 million over the past five years with the Coyotes. Shouldn't that give him the security to make a decision that will make him happy?


http://aol.sportingn...urgh-penguins-1
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#1009 Drive-By Body Pierce

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:31 PM

You never know, he might of changed his mind at the last minute. If I was Doan I would pick Vancouver though.

According to Jesse Spector of the Sporting News, he does have the option to sign a 1 year deal:

Shane Doan became a free agent on July 1. He determined that he would not make a decision on whether to leave the Phoenix Coyotes until July 9. When that came and went, Doan's new deadline for a decision was July 16. Then it was July 27, with Doan saying he wanted to make a decision quickly so that he could get his family settled for his kids to start the school year.


Here it is, August, and Doan still is a man without a contract. If he really wanted to leave the Coyotes, he would have done so by now. It is clear that the 35-year-old winger wants to stay in Phoenix, where he has played ever since the Coyotes moved from Winnipeg. So, why doesn't he?


Doan wants a multiyear deal, reportedly in the range of four years and $30 million. There's little doubt that he would be able to get it. But if he does not want to leave Phoenix, he has an option, even with the future of the Coyotes in doubt: sign a one-year contract.


Even if the sale of the Coyotes to Greg Jamison falls through, there is no way that the NHL would be able to relocate the franchise on such short notice, especially with everything else on the league's plate. If Doan wants to stay in Phoenix, and his continued extension of deadlines is a clear indication of his desires, then he should do what he wants. Nobody is stopping him. Give it another go with Mike Smith, Keith Yandle and Oliver Ekman-Larsson. If Doan wants to play for a contender, a team that just went to the Western Conference finals isn't a bad choice.


Would it be a gamble for Doan to leave money on the table now? He'd run the risk of injury, but it isn't as if he'd be hurt by CBA changes—at 36 next summer, Doan would qualify for unrestricted free agency even by the league's proposed 10-year standard, and it's not as if he would be looking for a decade-long deal.


There also is the chance that Doan could make more money by signing a one-year deal now, then going for a three or four-year deal next summer, with the Coyotes or otherwise. If Alex Semin can get $7 million from the Hurricanes on a one-year deal, why can't Doan get $8 million from Phoenix, especially considering that the Coyotes need to spend about that much to reach the (current CBA's) salary floor?


Doan made $22.75 million over the past five years with the Coyotes. Shouldn't that give him the security to make a decision that will make him happy?


http://aol.sportingn...urgh-penguins-1



The possibility of him signing in Phoenix is still very much an option. But a similar argument could be made in contrast. If the league isn't in a position to move the Coyotes before the start of next season and they are destined to stay in Glendale for at least another year, then why hasn't he signed the 1-year deal to stay there already and maintain that stability for his family?

In my opinion, either way you look at it, its a pretty flimsy argument. And, alas, we are all going to have to wait to find out what happens.

Edited by STiBlammo, 04 August 2012 - 01:33 PM.

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#1010 mclean_is_#1

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:38 PM

First, in 8 years its gone up 180%... how does 750% in the following 12 make any sense...

Now you're just assuming, In 2005 did we really think that the cap would have gone to 70+ million this fast? You have no idea what kind of cap were looking at in the following years. History dictates... it rises, quickly; and right now history is all we have as a way of making any sort of educated guess what so ever.

Also, those examples you gave were PRE salary cap... so those dont make any relevant case to your argument what so ever. Salarys like those are the reason why there's a salary cap to begin with.

St. Louis was 29, he had just come off a season winning the Art Ross. You seriously believe that had someone like that, in those circumstances been a UFA this off season, he would have yielded 5.25 mil per year the exact same as David Krejci? If you think so, then we cant even have this discussion because you aren't using logic or any basic fundamentals of economics.

With regards to the 750%, I used a 1 mill cap hit as an acceptable hit for an aging, sub 30 point player and not 7.5 like Parise MIGHT be by the end of his contract. But you, for some reason, think that figure will be peanuts and irrelevant by that time becaue the cap hit will be at 115 million (according to your 180%). Even with these numbers, tying 15% of your cap space to an aging, low producing player just handicaps a team in the long run.

The NHL cap, being 7 years old, is just too new of a system to base any projections right now. Yes it has gone up significantly, but this is due to the unexpected jump in revenue the NHL has experienced. In 2005, the NHL knew it had to anticipate low revenue incomes due to the diminished fan base in the US after a full season lost. It has, thankfully, recovered and continued to make profits, allowing for the cap to increase. But it's not going to go up forever, certainly not at the rate you're talking about.

Let's look at the NFL, who's cap system has been in place 12 years longer than the NHL's, and makes significantly more money. In 94, it started off with a ceiling of 34 million, which grew to 85.5 by 2005. In it's first 11 years, the cap grew 250%, faster than the NHL's current rate. From 2006 (102) till 2012 at (120.6), it has only increased about 18% including a DECREASE from 2009 to 2011 (2010 was uncapped) from 123 to 120. The increase from 2011 to 2012 was only 0.6 mill. So, based on these projections, we can expect the NHL to hit that same ceiling in about 4 years time.

I'm not even going to continue the St. Louis argument except to say that he re-signed in 2011-2012 after a 99 point season, 5 more points than his Art Ross year. You can't compare bad, over priced contracts to good GMing and hometown discounts. And those salaries I gave 12 years ago show that the money they were giving out then to star players, is the same money they are giving out now. Pre-cap, post- cap, it's still the same money. 7.5 million was a lot then, it's a lot now, it will still be a lot 12 years from now...not "peanuts"...

Edited by mclean_is_#1, 04 August 2012 - 01:53 PM.

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"...but there is going to be that seventh game, we'll hope they can patch Linden up and get him in that one. He will play, you know he'll play. He'll play on crutches. He will play! And he'll play at Madison Square Garden on Tuesday night! The game is over!!!"
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Thanks for the memories Trev!!!

#1011 WiDeN

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:44 PM

You never know, he might of changed his mind at the last minute. If I was Doan I would pick Vancouver though.

According to Jesse Spector of the Sporting News, he does have the option to sign a 1 year deal:

Shane Doan became a free agent on July 1. He determined that he would not make a decision on whether to leave the Phoenix Coyotes until July 9. When that came and went, Doan's new deadline for a decision was July 16. Then it was July 27, with Doan saying he wanted to make a decision quickly so that he could get his family settled for his kids to start the school year.


Here it is, August, and Doan still is a man without a contract. If he really wanted to leave the Coyotes, he would have done so by now. It is clear that the 35-year-old winger wants to stay in Phoenix, where he has played ever since the Coyotes moved from Winnipeg. So, why doesn't he?


Doan wants a multiyear deal, reportedly in the range of four years and $30 million. There's little doubt that he would be able to get it. But if he does not want to leave Phoenix, he has an option, even with the future of the Coyotes in doubt: sign a one-year contract.


Even if the sale of the Coyotes to Greg Jamison falls through, there is no way that the NHL would be able to relocate the franchise on such short notice, especially with everything else on the league's plate. If Doan wants to stay in Phoenix, and his continued extension of deadlines is a clear indication of his desires, then he should do what he wants. Nobody is stopping him. Give it another go with Mike Smith, Keith Yandle and Oliver Ekman-Larsson. If Doan wants to play for a contender, a team that just went to the Western Conference finals isn't a bad choice.


Would it be a gamble for Doan to leave money on the table now? He'd run the risk of injury, but it isn't as if he'd be hurt by CBA changes—at 36 next summer, Doan would qualify for unrestricted free agency even by the league's proposed 10-year standard, and it's not as if he would be looking for a decade-long deal.


There also is the chance that Doan could make more money by signing a one-year deal now, then going for a three or four-year deal next summer, with the Coyotes or otherwise. If Alex Semin can get $7 million from the Hurricanes on a one-year deal, why can't Doan get $8 million from Phoenix, especially considering that the Coyotes need to spend about that much to reach the (current CBA's) salary floor?


Doan made $22.75 million over the past five years with the Coyotes. Shouldn't that give him the security to make a decision that will make him happy?


http://aol.sportingn...urgh-penguins-1


The highlighted part is crap speculation by Spector on a report that was denied by Doan's agent.
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#1012 TheDave

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:49 PM

Have you actually watched Doana play much? .. he is going to "protect" the Sedins? .. that is a funny one .. he is like the cowardly lion .. won't even defend himself unless he is cornered or the other player is like one of the Sedins .. :picard:

You couldn't be more wrong on that one.
You should (re)watch the PHX vs NSH series.. Doan sticks up for his teammates with every ounce of his being. He plays a physical style without going over the edge and taking bad penalties or risking injury in fights best left for "tough guys" to take care of.
IMO hes a perfect fit for the sedins and has the leader ship to mentor our younger guys into being responsible with their aggression and so forth.
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#1013 Rypien37

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:05 PM

By the way things are going, I honestly see this dragging out till September.
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#1014 cripplereh

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:36 PM

If we get Doan I do not see him the way AV coaches put Doan on the top line which is Burrows spot.I want Doan to sign faster then later and also the Luo deal to be done so we all can relax and know whom we have on the team.Saying that I think the third and fourth lines will still need a tweek as we'd have to many nhlers on the team!
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#1015 Everybody Hates Raymond

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:37 PM

By the way things are going, I honestly see this dragging out till September.

I still think he's using other teams as leverage to help himself get the contract he wants from the Yotes
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#1016 djsandwiches

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:41 PM

My hunch is something will get announced on BC Day, signing and trade perhaps on the same day ;)
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Cheers!


#1017 WHL rocks

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:42 PM

The difference between that incident in the CF vs our incident in round 1 is that the play was blown dead in the Phoenix/LA game whereas in ours play continued on for several seconds. Lest it be unknown, here is Doan filling in Brown before:


Now, your point about getting at Brown in the WCF after the Roszival incident:


Penner's goal was an OT series GWG. Doan had exactly 12 seconds of clock time to climb into LA's bench and pummel the resting Kings' captain.


Yeah, 4 fights in 3 seasons as a result of brutal cheapshots. He doesn't just drop the gloves for no reason. If you go to his fight cards on hockeyfights.com you'll see descriptions of what led up to his fights for the past 16 seasons and the vast majority were as a result of retaliation for a questionable hit or for answering the bell after his own questionable hit. That's when he drops the gloves, not just randomly thinking: "I guess I gotta fire up the boys tonight."

He had 20 fights from '95-'00 and he managed to balance that with solid stats so that's the guy Kassian needs to show him the ropes. As for Bieksa detering the Sedins' cheapshot artists, unfortunately for us, Bieksa happens to be a key PKer and shutdown pairing defenceman for this team. So if he takes the instigator that leaves 5 defenceman killing a penalty (only 3 of whom are very good at it).


No, it's why I asked you why exactly are Gillis & Gillman trying their damndest to sign Doan.

Could it be that he's basically Samuelsson, Torres, and Morrow wrapped up in one player? Could it be because he's literally the best example of off-ice work ethic and demeanor that we could possibly expose Kassian/Mallet/etc to? Could he possibly have a word or two of wisdom regarding failing to live up to expectations at a young age in the NHL and how to overcome that hurdle? Is he not a perfect fit for our roster right now?

Just answer the question: Why do you think Gillis & Gillman are pursuing him so hard?



Okay, so you agree that you'd love to have him on this team for two years @ a maximum cap hit of $6m/year or am I misunderstanding you? Let's just see what he ends up signing for and how it all plays out. I do understand the concern over the four year term. I don't think he'll be nearly the same player in year #4 as he is today but I'm just as uncomfortable throwing Kassian to the wolves when you take into consideration exactly how much pressure he has to overcome after Gillis traded the "Golden Boy" for him.


You posted a video of the Doan vs brown fight from Feb 16 2012. I've seen that fight and it was hardly a fillng in, True it was because of a cheap shot. But I wouldn't call it "filling in Brown". A couple of punches and then to the ice.

Your stat of Doan having 20 fights from 95 to 00 proves my point doesn't it? Why the huge drop off in fights? I say because he's getting older and its showing already.

He averages about a fight a season for the past 3 years. I can't understand how/why he would be a deterrent for opposing players.

Like I said earlier, IMO its a mistake to overpay and give a 4 year term to Doan just so he can mentor Kassian . I agree he would help Kassian but at that price?

I like to drink wine, its good for the heart, puts me in a good mood, helps me enjoy my evening +++ but I don't spend an entire month's salary on one bottle of wine.

I don't expect him to be able to keep up for 4 more years. I don't think he's worth $6 or $7 million per year. Like I said, 2 years max, preferably at Kesler money. But that's not what happens on UFA. Everyone gets over paid.

Why do I think MG wants Doan so bad? I don't know he does. How do you know he wants him that bad? Has he offered him 4 years @ $6 or $7 mill? I'm not privy to what MG thinks and how long he's willing to sign Doan for.

For all I know MG has only offered a 2 year contract at Ryan Kesler money. I'm having a discussion about Doan with other hockey fans on hockey forums who think its a great idea to sign an ageing player to 4 years. I'm saying Doan will be almost 40 years old in 4 years. I'm saying he will not be worth that type of salary or cap hit in years 3 and 4. I'm not attempting to read MG's mind.

I can however take into account MG's previous statements on giving a 35+ player a long term contract. MG is smart enough to know Doan won't be the same player in 3 years from now when he's 38 years old. MG himself has gone on record to say these are risky contracts.

Who knows how this will play out. If it is a 4 year contract maybe they will structure the contract where Doan gets most of his money in the first 2 years and pay him close to league min for the last 2 years. When he is no longer worth the cap hit, his rights could be traded to a cap floor team and he could retire. The cap floor team could count his salary against the cap but not have to pay him the $1 million or so he would be owed. Everyone wins.
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#1018 HiFiclub

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:47 PM

First, I understand you are a huge fan of Miller's but I am not currently in discussion with Miller re: Messier. I have never discussed Messier's time in Vancouver with Miller, ever. Miller may be right all the time but I have to give you some bad news. Miller can't be right this time. Sorry.

It's all good though, I think Miller is a pretty cool guy too. I'm sure he loves all his fans equally.

Second, Why are you yelling? Calm down and remember, "We are all Canucks".


I am mad not because of you. I am mad coz I hate that no heart lion who screwed over our team before and even now...Call me an extremist! Say what you want. His negative effects outweighted any benefits during his time w/ the Canucks.


People called Messier a cro-magnon headhunter; See videos and you will know why
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yxLlZkknv0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BJ12dpgRIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbuYFx4dPnw

I have no respect to Messier and shame to have a Canucks player like that. I am going to stick to my pov and will never change.

Point #1

As you mentioned earlier: "gave you example of Mess being one of the most physical and meanest players of his generation who's age caught up to him like it has caught up to every living being to have ever lived."

Did he use his physicality while he was in Vancouver?? Well... I didn't see Jack $hit and I am sure a lot of season ticketholders want their $$$ back during Messier's time in here.

Point #2

"You claim Messier didn't have the drive to win later on in his career. But Doan does. You fail to recognise it was Messier's age not his drive that was the problem when he was with the Canucks."


If you read the Messier's stats that I provided earlier...Explain to me why he got more points after he left Canucks??? Your argument doesn't make sense.

Edited by HiFiclub, 04 August 2012 - 03:26 PM.

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#1019 WHL rocks

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:56 PM

ok WHL this is starting to deteriorate.
You asked for an example of a guy who could still play physical hockey late into his 30s so I gave you the most obvious one, to which you respond that it's a desperate argument.
Messier's game changed fundamentally around the age of 32/33 - he could still score, but he no longer was the intimidating force he was - you can argue it was age only - I disagree - I think there were more factors involved.. He's one player - I gave you the opposite example that you asked for. There are lots of other guys who have performed well in their late 30s and Doan has shown plenty of signs that he is one of them.

You can speak for Doan all you want, and claim that he doesn't want to win because he stayed in Phoenix for the hot weather and lifestyle - that's just an assumption on your part - imo that preference to stay in Phoenix would more likely come down to loyalty, believing in his team (which just went to the WCF) and not wanting to uproot his family.

Finally - the idea that he is fixed on a 4 year deal at an insane cap hit was an unsubstantiated rumour refuted by his agent. I have never advocated signing Doan to an "albatross" contract - that would be some other straw man.

If you are not advocating signing Doan to a 4 year contract then there is no disagreement between us. I made a post saying this might be a mistake, you responded and we continued to have a discussion. I think if you agree that 4 years at $6 or $7 mill is an albatross contract then we have no difference of opinion.
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#1020 Jester13

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:59 PM

And a lot of the Sharks fans are commenting on how they will probably not get Doan, and that Doug Wilson is only a tire kicker and stuff like that.

So yeah, seems highly unlikely.


just had to let you know that chopin is my fav:)
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