Sharpshooter Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 With modesty? The first thing I actually noticed from the picture you posted is that each of the women are smiling and look happy! So whut da big dilly? One can argue the opposing perspective as well, by putting up pictures of scantily clad women to portray how they have been subjected and the objectified in today's society like pieces of meat and skin to be conquered and devoured...as if they are wild game. In my opinion, it is a sad testament of where our society is today when there is a 'problem' with women covering up yet images portraying naked or abused women are deemed acceptable and utilized to impress and attract consumers, on top of shows and concepts like 'Toddlers and Tiaras' being considered as forms of compelling entertainment. The problem today seems to be with any women who does not wish to show her skin. Speaking solely for the religion I adhere to (Islam), there are many who convert to Islam (even here locally) and most of the converts are actually women who choose to cover themselves up and by their own accounts they feel liberated. Many of them say that while covered it forces people to deal with their minds as opposed to their bodies and/or attributes. And if women are going to be mentioned then why not include men as well since many religious men wear full-covering robes and many also cover their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefCon1 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 this man, i think this thinking is ingrained in us. heck, even women themselves think the same! many muslim men think they are justified in doing this to their wives, and some women think that this is their place too. pretty crazy really, i lay the blame on culture though and not in my case at least - islam. there's nothing wrong if a woman want;s to cover herself up though, ignorant if you think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I just don't see how this has anything to do with religion. Men can repress women's sexuality without religion too. I guess you haven't seen jealous boyfriends who try to cover up their woman so creeps don't gawk at them. Religion magnifies the problem but you have to think that it is beyond that. I know many fathers who want to sexually repress their daughters because they don't want them flaunting their stuff and getting date raped in a nightclub. In a way there is a positive and negative in all of this. Repress women's sexuality might mean less freedom for them but maybe less incidents of "rape"?? Or not repressing women's sexuality so the female population can express their sexuality freely but maybe more incidents of "rape" and stalking creeps? I just see a positive and negative to all of this and blame the mentality of mankind. Religion might reinforce someone's belief but that belief has to come from somewhere. We only live by the choices we make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefCon1 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 You don't think they could be smiling because they're having their picture taken do you? If I put up pictures of scantily clad women, do you think they're just as equally as happy if they're also smiling?? If you perceive them as pieces of meat, then who do you think has more of a problem? The women you're looking at, or you? Or perhaps Islam has taught you to view a woman's body as being good for only one thing, and therefore only consider it sexually when you happen to see one? Maybe not. Maybe it's just you and you are offended by skin. I wonder where you picked up that puritanical streak? Does Islam actually give women a choice in covering up? I'm sorry, but I think it's a stretch to associate women's liberation with Islam, regardless of how rosy a picture you paint. Tell me, why aren't women allowed to be mullahs? Why aren't women in any position of authority in Islam? But, I agree with your last point very much. I think it's an astute and very fair way of looking at things. If women are required or have the option of wearing full bee-keeper suits with the full facial shields then the men should as well. If it's good enough for women, then it's good enough for men..... because we believe in the equality of both men and women, don't we? Anyways, this is completely off-topic, but perhaps in another setting this would be a good topic to discuss at some length. Apologies for veering off course in pursuit of this tangent. I await further info of this bomber and hopefully some further evidence to his motivations and connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 the first university in the world was established by a female muslim. muslim women have gone up to some pretty prominent and high positions in islam. the mother being one of them - heaven lies under her feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefCon1 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Oh, I totally agree....it certainly isn't limited to just being religious, of any stripe. However, it doesn't negate the fact that religions actively have and continue to repress a women's sexuality as well as keep them at an unequal footing within their structures. So instead of teaching men from the begining to not treat women like objects to rape, we pin the onus on the women to not tempt us into raping them, eh? Makes sense. Hey, i know, let's cover all the women from head to toe in cloth, so you can't even see their eyes, and then let's cut off their clitoris so they don't get too much enjoyment from sex and heaven forbid go out and commit adultery on us guys because you know they can't be trusted...hmm what else can we do to 'protect' them from other guys?? Oh, we should tell them that they're not allowed to leave the house unless they're with a male relative....oh and for our daughters, I was thinking, maybe we go with the whole chopped clitoris thing and marry them off when they're young. That should protect them, appease our gods, keep the family honour, respect them as equals and their right to freedom and self determination, and make the world a better place for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Same thing I could ask you about our society. Why isn't there a female president yet? Why are almost all CEOs male? Obviously the females here have more freedom, more so than the 1950's but there is still that barrier that exists between female and male. While you are also focusing on one issue (expression of female sexuality), I could list dozens of issues that are parallel in both religious and non-religious settings. The only difference between both settings it the degree of separation but that barrier still exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Now I agree with you that religion represses sexuality (there is no question about that) but you just make it sound like religion invented sexual repression of women when it has always existed. Males will always be seduced by a woman's figure whether you like it or not but some men have more control over their desires than other men. The onus is not only on the men but also on the women too, to dress appropriately and not draw a lot of attention from their male counterparts. If women wanted to express their sexuality freely, then they would just go outside half naked without any top on a hot summer day. Why don't women do that? (I know some do in wreck beach but why not in public?) There are varying degrees of sexual repression when it comes to females, the difference is that religion has a higher degree of repression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 the first university in the world was established by a female muslim. muslim women have gone up to some pretty prominent and high positions in islam. the mother being one of them - heaven lies under her feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Now I agree with you that religion represses sexuality (there is no question about that) but you just make it sound like religion invented sexual repression of women when it has always existed. Males will always be seduced by a woman's figure whether you like it or not but some men have more control over their desires than other men. The onus is not only on the men but also on the women too, to dress appropriately and not draw a lot of attention from their male counterparts. If women wanted to express their sexuality freely, then they would just go outside half naked without any top on a hot summer day. Why don't women do that? (I know some do in wreck beach but why not in public?) There are varying degrees of sexual repression when it comes to females, the difference is that religion has a higher degree of repression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Oh, no doubt, muslim women are remarkable people and have done some remarkable things...no question about it. They're as smart and capable as any other man or woman on Earth, of that I have no doubts......but I suspects it's because of their hard work and dedication to the pursuits, rather than their religious affiliation. And, which level of prominence has a muslim woman reached in Islam? Which position was it? And who was this woman? Has any other woman reached it? Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 and not to mention, islamically, muslim woman have had the right to vote for over 1400 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 1st convert to Islam = Khadija (ra) a woman 1st martyr in Islam = Summayah ra a woman most quoted hadith = Aisha (ra) a woman A Muslim mother's status is so high that heaven is under her feet. the fact of the matter is, women are to be treated with respect. And a muslim man is not a better believer than a muslim woman, they are equals in that sense. men and women have rights over each other in Islam. with all that said, muslim women are being oppressed and it;s because of ignorance, but women are being oppressed in secular countries as well. they are both wrong, but islam doesn't say oppress women. "Women came directly to the prophet s.a.w to enquire (question) as well as give their opinions On diverse subjects; religion, economy and social." "-The Muslim women has right to accept or reject any marriage proposals Or not marry at all. She also has right to keep her surname (father's name) after marriage. " "-The testimony of a woman is valid in political (legal) battles. -The prophet s.a.w said: "Seeking knowledge is a duty for every Muslim male and female." muslim women also have the right to work and the list goes on Sharpshooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefCon1 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Uh, there have been plenty of female Presidents, Prime Ministers and other Heads of State among numerous societies around the world. And yes, while the number in comparison is low, there are still 19 Female CEO's of fortune 500 companies. But tell me, how many female mullahs are there? Or how many female Pope's? Or Ayatollahs? Still think you can point the finger at rest of secular society and say "See, they're no better" You could list dozens of things in society that separates men from women?? Great, please do.....other than the bathroom, go for it. I can't wait to see this list of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 So why aren't there any female mullahs then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefCon1 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 If i've given the impression that women are 'only' oppressed and repressed by religions, or religious people, allow me to just state clearly, that I don't believe that to be the case....I infact agree very much and am suggesting the very thing you've written in your very last sentence. The bolded part that I highlighted in some real cave man mentality that you should probably work on. Seriously, it's pretty dumb. The onus is not on women to dress 'appropriately', but it is on men to not sexually assault women. You know what works really well? Education. Healthy relationships. Sex. If you promoted those things, and worked on teaching people about those things, i bet there'd be a bit less sexually frustrated people in this world. I find that religions are obsessed with sex. Who you can have it with, who you can't have it with, which hole you can have it in,, which you can't. I bet if more muslims, christians, hindus, jews, sikhs, etc were getting laid freely and regularly.....there'd be a crap load less violence and problems emanating from them....just a working hypothesis though. Anyways, just realised i'm terribly off topic once again, so i'll stop here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Was I talking to you? Nope.. How about that - sticking your nose where it doesn't belong eh? How hypocritical of you.... Yes, I agree somewhat - religion isn't the issue - it's man - and how the few use it to force power and take power from others... BTW - stick to the topic please - this thread has nothing to do with religion nor your hatred of it. Your rules - remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Am talking about a female president in United States. You just seem so hostile and in disbelief that there is still this notion of separation between male and female in our society. Am not religious, so you don't need to put your guards up, am just pointing out my observations and what I see everyday. Of course there are varying degrees as I've stated but the separation still exists even though women have freedom to become anything they want in our society. Don't forget that 50 years ago, it wasn't like what it is today. I just get sick and tired of people that keep bringing up religion as an excuse in these threads when the issues at hand is not even about religion. It doesn't even make sense. For example, the conflict between Iran and Israel goes beyond religion. If religion was that big of deal, then why is Iran great partners with China (mainly atheists) and India (mainly hindu)? Am just wondering why some people are naive into believing this has anything to do with religion while there are bigger goals and agendas. Expansion of Israel, obtaining nuclear power and invasion of other countries for oil has nothing to do with religion or spreading that freedom BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I just don't see how this has anything to do with religion. Men can repress women's sexuality without religion too. I guess you haven't seen jealous boyfriends who try to cover up their woman so creeps don't gawk at them. Religion magnifies the problem but you have to think that it is beyond that. I know many fathers who want to sexually repress their daughters because they don't want them flaunting their stuff and getting date raped in a nightclub. In a way there is a positive and negative in all of this. Repress women's sexuality might mean less freedom for them but maybe less incidents of "rape"?? Or not repressing women's sexuality so the female population can express their sexuality freely but maybe more incidents of "rape" and stalking creeps? I just see a positive and negative to all of this and blame the mentality of mankind. Religion might reinforce someone's belief but that belief has to come from somewhere. We only live by the choices we make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 in islam, there's nothing stopping muslimahs from being educated... and why should women be compared and standardized to men? in islam her value is in relation to God, not man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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