smurf47 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Did you watch the second half of the season? The team was definitely not the reason why he was an elite goalie. Luu and Cory carried the team after the all star break. We all know what happened in the playoffs. The goalies are the only ones you can't put the blame on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vapourstreak Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Only because these are repeat posts...how many times can you offer a rebuttal to these long tirades of his.. and nowhere have I indicated that I won the argument...thats your take on it and incorrect. I have never stated Luongo has not been a very good goalie or is washed up now. Based on my experience with goaltenders and my stance echoed by others (including management),, Schneider is NOW better and is the guy going forward. Otherwise, they would keep the better goalie. Its about winning, the Canuck owners make tons of money but are in it to win !! Downunda never recognizes Schneiders stats and superiority, he just quotes 05. 07 ....5-7 years ago...its all about...what have you done for me lately !! You can;t argue against passion...its a numbers game , through in some chemistry and you can succeedin closing.....its really hard convincing 17 yr olds !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf47 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I apologize for my assumption that you've think you won, but I stand by the fact that a post should have an opinion backed by facts and evidence, as one liners don't move the discussion forward. I agree that Schneider is probably going to do well with the Canucks, but I disagree that he is better than Luongo. Management made the decision to go with the younger guy, not necessarily because of straight up raw talent. I don't appreciate you bringing up age though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckFan1981 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Its my age and experience (read 43 years) of goaltending involvement that gives me the opions that I share here. How can a 17 or 20 yr old even have had the time or resources to gain that much experience? Without that experience , all thats left is supposition and personal belief, based on what? Fans watch hockey games but can't analyze what they are seeing. They see results but often don;t understand the cause. Lou is an NHL goalie, so, he must be good enough. I just don;t see him as an elite goalie because I see the consistant fundamental flaws in his game. Its what I look at ! Schneider is technically far better than Lou, has no glaring flaws to be exploited(other than puck handling) and its the reason he is having more success. Its not rocket scince but it is a science. Its mathematics..its angles, percentages, options.. more proactive than reactive, .and so misunderstood that teams hire goalies to teach goalies. Most bench coaches have no idea how to analyze or fix a broken goalie. Most people here don;t understand what I'm talking about, its a foreign language to anyone but a goalie.I look at it like a mechanic. As much as I fear Lous style, I was was elated in 2010-11 season when Melanson reinvented Lou and he had a great season which was verified by his stats. In the playoffs, he did not adopt the style which had been so successful during the season. He had some magical games followed up by some very poor games. He showed inconsistancy and poor fundamentals. People think its pressure and thats anyones guess, certainly a possibility.. Lou reverted to his pre Melanson style last season and his GAA rose to 2.42 vs 2.11 the season before. Again, the stats verify his poorer play . Why he would revert back to his old style is anyones guess, but definitely not a smart move. In doing so, he opened the door for Schneider to skate through. IMO, had he played like the season before, the choice of which goalie to keep would have been much more difficult. Only Lou knows what prompted that strategy ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf47 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Good post! I am not a goalie nor a goalie coach, analyst or whatever you are. However, in my observations, I was of the opinion that Luongo was letting more softy shots in under Melansson, because he had him playing farther back in his crease to gaurd the back door pass. It is my opinion that Luongo should stop the shots and his defense should handle the back door. When Luu is out challenging the shooter he is probably the most difficult or one of the most difficult to get the puck by. It was voted by the in 07 or 08 that he was the most "intimidating" goalie, or something to that effect. The thing I noticed was the Blackhawks exploited our defense more than Luongo and were able to get everything across to the backdoor. Luongo then started watching the back door and pucks starting going through him. IMO he was most effective pre- Melansson era. But i don't have stats to back it up, hehe. Just my observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferlands_Head Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Jimmy has been alright, but he's easily the worst starting goalie to wear the jersey since Manny Legace. I don't know if Detroit feels 'secure' about him long term. Question marks with both of these guys, one is still learning, the other is running out of runway. Key problem: Both of these guys are behind questionable defense, so if they don't stand out, they will get lit up. Both of these guys were horrible in the playoffs, and Bryz couldn't even stay consistent in the regular season. Fleury has had his share of inconsistent goaltending also in recent years, Brent Johnson has bailed him out a few times. While it's easier to forgive Fleury as he helped deliver a Stanley Cup, Bryz will have a lot to prove come next season. Winning a Cup as a rookie does wonders for your reputation. Unfortunately it doesn't mean you actually made a difference, especially the way Chicago embarrassed Nashville, Vancouver, the Sharks and Philly on the scoreboard. Niemi is an accomplished goalie, but I don't think he's really anything special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 There is no "everyone" to which you refer. There once was a younger goalie who had a good season and then was average - therefore if the Canucks trade Luongo they will go downhill. Your negative expectations are no more intelligent than anyone else's positive ones - if anything they are less informed becaues you are ignoring what Schneider's actual performance and consistency indicate. Of course, with any player, their is a chance their career doesn't proceed as expected - but that is unpredictable. What people see, people like, and there is no reason to believe that isn't the real Cory Schneider. Stop telling people to stop jumping the gun. What you are doing is no different - you are jumping the gun with your doom and gloom expectations. That's fine - that's your opinion. I don't find it convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera82 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Exactly my point. What I am trying to reiterate here is that there is a gamble with Schneider in net, much more so than with Luongo, and the Canucks want to win a Cup within the next 2 or 3 seasons. Basically, winning the Cup will come down to a lot of things, some of which aren't in anyone's control, but for the things that are controllable MG will have to roll a few dice and go with the team that gives him the best possibility to win a Cup. With Schneider, we have a possibility that he will not cope with the added pressure of a full-time position, and a possibility that he will struggle in the big games and playoffs because we have not seen him in this situation before. Basically, this possibility is much higher than Luongo failing during the season and playoffs, which is much lower because we have seen year after year what Luongo can do as a starter. He has churned out multiple 30-win seasons with consistency throughout his career despite the team in front of him and has come up big time and time again in the important games during the playoffs. This is all I ask CDC fans - realise the difference in probabilities between Luongo playing poorly and letting us down in the playoffs and Schneider not being able to handle the extra work load. Sure, Schneider could become an NHL legend and many people talk about him being a future Vezina winner but again, the realistic probability of him becoming one of the league's greatest net minders is so slim you can't get carried away with it. The best thing for crazy fans to do is keep some perspective and think realistically. The problem is most fans remember the blowouts of Luongo and the stellar performances by Schneider, but at the end of the day when it's all said and done Luongo as a starter gives us a much higher probability and chance of having regular season success and playoff success as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keslerian one Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Every goalie was unproven at some point. Rinne, Quick, Price on and on. It's time to give Schneids a shot at proving himself. We owe it to the guy - we drafted him first round, developed him slowly and he played the back up role quite impressively on and off the ice. Luongo was the best goalie this franchise ever had. But his contract no longer makes sense with the Canucks with the emergence of a young goalie. Lu had pretty decent chance for the cup for a couple of years and a really good chance for a few years. Nothing came of it. I think both management and Luongo feel it's time for a new start. I think the readiness of Schneider is no longer an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nino Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Exactly my point. What I am trying to reiterate here is that there is a gamble with Schneider in net, much more so than with Luongo, and the Canucks want to win a Cup within the next 2 or 3 seasons. Basically, winning the Cup will come down to a lot of things, some of which aren't in anyone's control, but for the things that are controllable MG will have to roll a few dice and go with the team that gives him the best possibility to win a Cup. With Schneider, we have a possibility that he will not cope with the added pressure of a full-time position, and a possibility that he will struggle in the big games and playoffs because we have not seen him in this situation before. Basically, this possibility is much higher than Luongo failing during the season and playoffs, which is much lower because we have seen year after year what Luongo can do as a starter. He has churned out multiple 30-win seasons with consistency throughout his career despite the team in front of him and has come up big time and time again in the important games during the playoffs. This is all I ask CDC fans - realise the difference in probabilities between Luongo playing poorly and letting us down in the playoffs and Schneider not being able to handle the extra work load. Sure, Schneider could become an NHL legend and many people talk about him being a future Vezina winner but again, the realistic probability of him becoming one of the league's greatest net minders is so slim you can't get carried away with it. The best thing for crazy fans to do is keep some perspective and think realistically. The problem is most fans remember the blowouts of Luongo and the stellar performances by Schneider, but at the end of the day when it's all said and done Luongo as a starter gives us a much higher probability and chance of having regular season success and playoff success as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf47 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Exactly my point. What I am trying to reiterate here is that there is a gamble with Schneider in net, much more so than with Luongo, and the Canucks want to win a Cup within the next 2 or 3 seasons. Basically, winning the Cup will come down to a lot of things, some of which aren't in anyone's control, but for the things that are controllable MG will have to roll a few dice and go with the team that gives him the best possibility to win a Cup. With Schneider, we have a possibility that he will not cope with the added pressure of a full-time position, and a possibility that he will struggle in the big games and playoffs because we have not seen him in this situation before. Basically, this possibility is much higher than Luongo failing during the season and playoffs, which is much lower because we have seen year after year what Luongo can do as a starter. He has churned out multiple 30-win seasons with consistency throughout his career despite the team in front of him and has come up big time and time again in the important games during the playoffs. This is all I ask CDC fans - realise the difference in probabilities between Luongo playing poorly and letting us down in the playoffs and Schneider not being able to handle the extra work load. Sure, Schneider could become an NHL legend and many people talk about him being a future Vezina winner but again, the realistic probability of him becoming one of the league's greatest net minders is so slim you can't get carried away with it. The best thing for crazy fans to do is keep some perspective and think realistically. The problem is most fans remember the blowouts of Luongo and the stellar performances by Schneider, but at the end of the day when it's all said and done Luongo as a starter gives us a much higher probability and chance of having regular season success and playoff success as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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