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(ARTICLE) Beware of the Unproven Goalie


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#31 Thunder Bunnies

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:10 PM

We already know it's a big risk. But Schneider has been tested over, and over, and over again and he has come through each time. If Schneider plays like he has been, he will be one of the best goalies in the league. Even if his numbers drop off a bit he will still be one of the best in the NHL. He's been developed properly and he has a good head on him. All the signs point to him being the real deal. It's a risk the Canucks have to take.


Agreed, it may be a risk but I'd take the risk on Schneider any day, he's proven he can compete at the NHL level and he has been developed very nicely. He's always positive, well-spoken, and he has a great personality. He's also shown he can remain calm in all situations and that's what really stands out to me. I agree with you, if he can continue to do what he's been doing, he will be one of the best goalies around the league.

#32 bluesman60

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:19 PM

How funny would it be if we missed the playoffs cause Schneider sucks?

I'd love to watch all the Luongo lovers beg for his return.


Yes that would be such an outstanding display of superiority on your part.
Just what everyone needs is another 'negative attitude'.

#33 Lychees

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:19 PM

I reserve judgment till I see Corey handle a 60+ game season

#34 bluesman60

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:23 PM

Agreed, it may be a risk but I'd take the risk on Schneider any day, he's proven he can compete at the NHL level and he has been developed very nicely. He's always positive, well-spoken, and he has a great personality. He's also shown he can remain calm in all situations and that's what really stands out to me. I agree with you, if he can continue to do what he's been doing, he will be one of the best goalies around the league.


What worries me more about Schneider is that he is involved in bargaining for the new NHL agreement. That could be a drain on him stress wise just like it did for Trevor Linden when he was involved.

#35 6of1_halfdozenofother

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:26 PM

or The team is the reason Lou was an elite goalie !!! Lou was middle of the pack on a winning team last year....a disturbing fact !!


Where was that "winning team" in the playoffs last year? Or were you expecting Luongo to score goals for the team as well?
People who label others as bandwagoners, people who tell other people "how" to cheer for their team, "how" they should act or what they should wear to "support" their team, people who only want to hear positive thoughts and don't want to read about how the team can do better - these are people who are insecure and uncomfortable within their own skin.

I'll support my team the way I choose, thank you very much. You can choose to support your team the way you want to, and I won't judge you on it as long as you don't try to force your beliefs on me. I'll also be quick to point out where I think the team can do better, because identifying that there is a problem is the first step to fixing it; denying or ignoring a problem won't solve anything.

Go Canucks Go.

#36 Tragoedia

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:28 PM

Cory isn't all that unproven though. He had a great College career that he topped off with a National Championship, then went on to play in the AHL for three years where he was the best goalie in the league and took a okay moose team to the championship, and has played well that last two years as Lou's back up. The only way for Cory to become more "proven" as an NHL caliber goalie would be to be a teams number 1 net minder....hmmm what should we do? This isn't like Montreal starting a 20 year old Carey Price, Cory has gone through the grinding processes that is the mental preparation as well as the games played at this level (with multiple games in the playoffs) I'm ready to see what Cory can do with a full season

I agree that the only way for Schneider to become more proven is for him to start, but Luongo is proven. That being said, it appears Luongo's time is up here, and it is time to move on for both parties. I think what is most important is that we get the best value for Luongo. If we don't get a worthwhile reward, it could be one of the biggest mistakes the Canucks franchise have made of the MG era. But, it also has the potential to bring pieces that could make our team that much better.

#37 playboi19

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:28 PM

Cam Ward and Braden Holtby are recent examples of young goaltenders with zero conscience.

Luongo has a lot of mental demons to battle through, where a nothing fazes Cory Schneider. He handles the Media well, has a great personality(Impressions), smart, athletic, younger, no major injuries.

Schneider took Luongo's job at the end of the season, now Luongo has to find a team where he is the better goaltender. Snap!

#38 NuxFan09

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:35 PM

That's the special thing about Schneider, he's excelled at EVERY level.

In college, for the Boston College Eagles, he posted these stats;

2004/2005 18 GP, 13-1-4, 1.90 GAA, .916 Save %

2005/2006 39 GP, 24-13-2, 2.11 GAA, .929 Save %

2006/2007 42 GP, 29-12-1, 2.15 GAA, .925 Save %

In the AHL, for the Manitoba Moose, he posted these stats:

2007/2008 36 GP, 21-12-2, 2.28 GAA, .916 Save %

2008/2009 40 GP, 28-10-1, 2.04 GAA, .928 Save % (Won Aldege "Baz" Bastien trophy as AHL goalie of the year)

2009/2010 60 GP, 35-23-2, 2.51 GAA, .919 Save %

In the NHL, as Luongo's backup, he posted these stats:

2010/2011 25 GP, 16-4-2, 2.23 GAA, .929 Save % (Shared Jennings trophy with Luongo as tandem with least goals allowed)

2011/2012 33 GP. 20-8-1, 1.96 GAA, .937 Save %


The only team in his career when he posted sub-par numbers was when he got spot starts in the NHL while he was still a regular in the AHL. But as a regular player at every level, the guy has been unreal. Does it all mean he's guaranteed to be elite as an NHL starter? No, I suppose not, but a player like this is as much a shoe-in as there is.

The Canucks management, as well all know, is a safe and cautious group. They wouldn't be going this direction if they weren't certain about Schneider being the absolute real deal.

#39 MoneypuckOverlord

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:40 PM

every goalie at one point in their career are "unproven" unless the oppurtunity is given to the. Maybe Montreal should have never used Patrik Roy since he was "unproven" or Martin Broduer, or even Luongo, at a given time, he was unproven. Dumb stupid article.

Players Nikolaj Ehlers have been compared too by the fan base of the Vancouver Canucks.

 

1 Pavel Bure

2 Markus Naslund

3 Nathan Mackkinon

4 Jonathan Drouin.

5 Jonathan Tavares

 

http://bleacherrepor...d-top-prospects

combine results.  Ehlers 5'11 162 lbs of solid rock.  


#40 Canuckaidian

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:42 PM

Cory will excell as our starter,. Do not worry.. Lou isn't exactly proven either in the NHL. At least when it comes to the playoffs. And really that's all that matters. I'm confident in cory when it comes to high pressure games,, not so much Lou.


So being top 20 all time in wins and shutouts. Luongo's playoff career save percentage 0.916, Brodeur 0.919, Roy 0.918 those are two of the greatest goalies ever Luongo saves a similar amount of shots. Roy has won the most playoff MVPs then anyone. Brodeur basically has every significant goalie record.

#41 sirwilliam

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

I think Hiller - Giguere is a better comparison. When Hiller began to take over, it was clear that, while Giguere was still very good, Hiller was the future goaltender of the organization.
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#42 higgyfan

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:47 PM

why do the canucks have to trade one of the best goalies in the NHL????
oh yea thats right are dumb fans listen too the even dumber media

Luongo will be the best goalie the canucks ever had

:picard: i hope we dont go back to the goalie graveyard days

I'm not hating on schneider, he has potential but Luuu is proven... He is the reason why we are an elite team


The fans and media are not trading Luo...Gillis is. It is looking like the Canucks management and coaching staff have decided to go with Schneids. Gillis made a big error in signing Luo to a rediculous contract, which is showing in the lack of interest in a fair trade. It may end with Schneids being traded, which may result in even more pressure on Luo and negativity if he doesn't succeed. I really don't like where this is heading.

#43 pleasingLeeJK

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:51 PM

What about Bryzgalov? Remember he was backing up Giguere in Anaheim a fews years back. What about Rinne? Remember when he was backing up Vokoun in Nashville? There's a lot more but a goalie can't prove that he's a starter if not given the chance. We'll see how this works out for Van.


Rinne and Vokoun never played together in Nashville

#44 CowtownCanuck

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

I'll take an average goalie that can have a few good games over a superstar goalie that has a few meltdowns. Overall, the numbers look better, but the end result is the same.



#45 pleasingLeeJK

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:57 PM

That's the special thing about Schneider, he's excelled at EVERY level.

In college, for the Boston College Eagles, he posted these stats;

2004/2005 18 GP, 13-1-4, 1.90 GAA, .916 Save %

2005/2006 39 GP, 24-13-2, 2.11 GAA, .929 Save %

2006/2007 42 GP, 29-12-1, 2.15 GAA, .925 Save %

In the AHL, for the Manitoba Moose, he posted these stats:

2007/2008 36 GP, 21-12-2, 2.28 GAA, .916 Save %

2008/2009 40 GP, 28-10-1, 2.04 GAA, .928 Save % (Won Aldege "Baz" Bastien trophy as AHL goalie of the year)

2009/2010 60 GP, 35-23-2, 2.51 GAA, .919 Save %

In the NHL, as Luongo's backup, he posted these stats:

2010/2011 25 GP, 16-4-2, 2.23 GAA, .929 Save % (Shared Jennings trophy with Luongo as tandem with least goals allowed)

2011/2012 33 GP. 20-8-1, 1.96 GAA, .937 Save %


The only team in his career when he posted sub-par numbers was when he got spot starts in the NHL while he was still a regular in the AHL. But as a regular player at every level, the guy has been unreal. Does it all mean he's guaranteed to be elite as an NHL starter? No, I suppose not, but a player like this is as much a shoe-in as there is.

The Canucks management, as well all know, is a safe and cautious group. They wouldn't be going this direction if they weren't certain about Schneider being the absolute real deal.


What I am worried about is that when Schneider got 20 more starts in his third year in the AHL his GAA went up half a goal. I am not saying that he is not capable of being an elite goalie in this league, it's just that I think we should let Luongo and Schneider duke it out for the starting position for the upcoming season. And if either one struggles start the back up.

#46 ThaBestPlaceOnEarth

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:01 PM

It's certainly possible that Schneider flubs it, but very unlikely in my opinion. More likely is that his currently glittering stats get eroded after a couple years of starting as players and coaches from other teams get more video and can analyze his game more closely (I expect the same will happen to Quick, now that he's had so much exposure).

My concern is that an early and/or major injury leaves us incredibly exposed at the most important position. There's too much invested in the roster and in contending every season right now for us to place that much weight on one guy staying healthy.

Ceterum censeo Chicaginem delendam esse


#47 King_Canuckian

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:02 PM

The article talks about risk. "Risk" is not necessarily bad. It works in some cases because of a lack of scouting. Teams sometimes aren't prepared for the likes of Ward, Roy, Holtby, Brodeur when they first emerged as quality starters. But then there's the other end of the spectrum with the likes of Mason, and Raycroft who started out well, but fell apart, either physically or mentally, and are merely supporting stats for the cautious side.

All GMs take risks. They take calculated risks, where some pan out (Iginla for Nieuwendyk), some don't (Bertuzzi to Florida). They have to rely on information from their scouting and development staff. If I'm MG, I look at that 8 game stretch where Luongo sat. I look at the consistency in the AHL. I look at Schneider's age vs. Mason's and Raycroft's. I acknowledge that there may be issues where Schneider shows fatigue, but that's why you get a quality backup to give Schneider appropriate rest.

10055118.jpg

 

You don't understand anything, man. Leave your stupid comments in your pocket


#48 Garrison

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:03 PM

he won't be Steve Mason

#49 NuxFan09

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:37 PM

See, I look at Steve Mason and Andrew Raycroft and I notice a glaring factor: Neither went through the slow, methodical development process that Schneider went through. Actually, Raycroft was pretty close to Schneider in terms of the development process but there was still one key difference. As Schneider spent three years in college, Raycroft spent three years in the OHL. And again, as Schneider spent another 3 years in the AHL, so did Raycroft. After those total six years of development for each player is where the key difference lies. Raycroft was thrust into the starters role for the Bruins right off the hop, whereas Schneider spent two years as Luongo's backup and slowly gaining NHL experience. Now, Raycroft actually excelled at first but it seems that sudden NHL responsibility caught up to him, as he was never the same after the lockout

As for Steve Mason, we all know he was just plain rushed. He spent a whole 2 seasons in the OHL as a starter during the 06/07 and 07/08 seasons and then played 61 games in the NHL for the Blue Jackets during the 08/09 season.

All this to say, I think Schneider has been prepared as much as he can be to be a starter in the NHL. What more can he or the organization realistically do? All that's left is for him to be given the chance to be the starter. Period.

#50 Onions

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:43 PM

why do the canucks have to trade one of the best goalies in the NHL????
oh yea thats right are dumb fans listen too the even dumber media

Luongo will be the best goalie the canucks ever had

:picard: i hope we dont go back to the goalie graveyard days

I'm not hating on schneider, he has potential but Luuu is proven... He is the reason why we are an elite team


If that statement is true, I have two things to say.
1. you can look into the future?
2. goalie graveyard is what we will be if Lou is the best goalie we will have. -.-'
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#51 Kes_4_Pres

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:52 PM

What a sick hashtag. @Jetzky18 rocks!

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

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-Bieksa on Ryan Kesler's clothing line.


#52 GHL

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

dont even have to look around the league for examples, the canucks in 1994 with whitmore and mclean whole city was calling for quinn's head when he put mclean in game1 of the playoffs because whitmore(the young goalie) had better stats.

we then proceeded to run mclean through the coals in 1995 (sound familiar?)

how quickly we forget!


Thats what I've been saying all along. It is time to get out of the comfort zone of killing goalies at the stake and keep Luongo. Do something different for once.

How many Cup would New Jersey NOT have had had they traded Brodeur because he didn't win the Cup initially?

That 40 year old Brodeur... What a loser really. He has played 19 seasons and only won 3 cups. That's only a 15.7% winning percentage.

Won the Cup in '95 with a stacked team but with a 2.45 and a .902. Loser.

Won't he Cup again in 2000. FIVE years went by without winning a Cup. I personally cannot believe New Jersey didn't trade him in '96 after "not showing up". A 2.24 and a .910 is pathetic. Loser.

Then he goes on winning another Cup in '03 posting a 2.02 ad a .903.

This year, with his 2.12, .917, I have no clue how he ended up in the finals.

Let's face it. Brodeur is no Schneider. Schneider posted a 1.31, .960. Brodeur is a loser he has a 2.02, .921 in 205 games.

Vancouver is one 1D away from winning the Cup and they would with Luongo. He NEEDS our positive support. You cannot possibly treat a goaltender like a politician.

Keep Luongo. He is proven.

Edited by GHL, 18 July 2012 - 03:14 PM.

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#53 Dogbyte

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

What I am worried about is that when Schneider got 20 more starts in his third year in the AHL his GAA went up half a goal. I am not saying that he is not capable of being an elite goalie in this league, it's just that I think we should let Luongo and Schneider duke it out for the starting position for the upcoming season. And if either one struggles start the back up.

And everyone should get ice cream whenever they want it.

"What players need is the right kind of strength and power. That includes learning to understand that leverage and positioning can be just as important as raw strength when it comes to winning battles in the game. It's more about timing and athleticism --and avoiding injury--than it is about how much you can bench press. I don't know how many times I've seen a guy with the physique of a defensive end line up a guy half his size, only to bounce off when he connects. Sure, there is room in the game for big guys who can throw their weight around. But for the most part, players are smart enough to see them coming--and strong enough to protect the puck when they arrive. There are trainers out there who know how to devlop hockey-specific strength--though a trainer can help only if a player follows the program. All too often, I've seen players sign up with the best trainer, but not show up for their workouts and never to reap the benefits."

 

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#54 dura_mater

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:14 PM

Yes that would be such an outstanding display of superiority on your part.
Just what everyone needs is another 'negative attitude'.


Actually, I'd find that pretty funny as well.
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#55 NuxFan09

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:19 PM

Actually, I'd find that pretty funny as well.


Then you two are likely the only two "fans" in the world that would find it funny that your team missed the playoffs. Some of you are so irrational that you'd wish ill fate upon your own team just to make a point. THAT is what's funny.

#56 radski

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:19 PM

I am not worried about it. Cory has proven himself and is consistant between the pipes. I agree that Luongo's asking price is not too high as he is also a proven starter. I just want this deal to get done so we can move on. If Hasek is getting attention at this point, then Luongo should be packing his bags.


I agree, only I hope a desperate team signs Hasek to a 5M deal so Luongo's value skyrockets and we get what he's truly worth in a trade. A 47 year old goalie signing at 5M (not saying that's what he'd get, but one can hope) would put Lu in the bargain category. If I had to guess I'd say a deal with Florida is already in motion, but with Doan's decision and current CBA negotiations holding things up. Unfortunately the CBA negotiations aren't expected to end any time soon so Doan's decision could have a domino effect.

#57 CanuckCup1316

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:20 PM

If at all possible, I would like to see both goalies here for the start of the season. Let teams like toronto, florida, tampa bay watch their current goalies lick balls and get a bidding war going for Luo. I hate the thought of people thinking that we cant expect much for him. Really? I thought an elite franchise goalie was the most important player for a team to build itself around. There should be at least 20 teams interested in Luongo. He would be an upgrade to at least 20 teams.

#58 Commercial Canuck

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:24 PM

So by the whole proven argument, we should ride Lu until the very end of his contract because he is the proven goaltender? Then what?

#59 Avicii

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:28 PM

Then you two are likely the only two "fans" in the world that would find it funny that your team missed the playoffs. Some of you are so irrational that you'd wish ill fate upon your own team just to make a point. THAT is what's funny.


Did we say we'd wish for the team to miss the playoffs? No, i said "wouldn't it be funny." And it would be, to see all the fans that literally pushed Luongo out of the city beg for his return.

I guess you don't care about how the fans treat Luongo either right?

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#60 NuxFan09

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:35 PM

If at all possible, I would like to see both goalies here for the start of the season. Let teams like toronto, florida, tampa bay watch their current goalies lick balls and get a bidding war going for Luo. I hate the thought of people thinking that we cant expect much for him. Really? I thought an elite franchise goalie was the most important player for a team to build itself around. There should be at least 20 teams interested in Luongo. He would be an upgrade to at least 20 teams.


I don't necessarily agree with this logic. Luongo is probably a top 7 goalie in this league, yes, but that doesn't automatically mean other teams aren't happy with their own goalie situations. Let's take the Red Wings for example. Luongo is a better goalie than Jimmy Howard but after Howard just posted 35 wins and a 2.13 GAA and .920 Save %, I don't think the Red Wings would be in a hurry to replace him with Luongo, especially because he's younger and cheaper. Ditto with a team like the Dallas Stars and Kari Lehtonen. There are several teams with goalies that don't quite measure up to Luongo but that are content with those goalies nonetheless.

This is how I would break down the market for Luongo:

Teams that need a starter: Maple Leafs

Teams that have a starter but may want to upgrade: Blackhawks, Pathers

Teams that are happy now but may discover they need an upgrade later in the season; Blue Jackets, Capitals, Lightning

I would hazard a guess that all other teams are content with their goaltending. Perhaps a team like Philadelphia wouldn't mind a Bryzgalov/Luongo swap in hindsight but I doubt they even attempt it. They hedged their bets on Bryzgalov and I imagine they'll stick with that.

Teams that are secure in net:

Anaheim - Jonas Hiller
Boston - Tuukka Rask
Buffalo - Ryan Miller
Calgary - Miikka Kiprusoff
Carolina - Cam Ward
Colorado - Semyon Varlamov
Dallas - Kari Lehtonen
Detroit - Jimmy Howard
Edmonton - Devan Dubnyk
Los Angeles - Jonathan Quick
Minnesota - Niklas Backstrom
Montreal - Carey Price
Nashville - Pekka Rinne
New Jersey - Martin Brodeur
NY Islanders - Evgeni Nabokov
NY Rangers - Henrik Lundqvist
Ottawa - Craig Anderson
Philadelphia - Ilya Bryzgalov
Phoenix - Mike Smith
Pittsburgh - Marc-Andre Fleury
San Jose - Antti Niemi
St. Louis - Jaroslave Halak
Vancouver - Roberto Luongo/Cory Schneider
Winnipeg - Ondrej Pavelec




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