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#1 Uller34

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:47 AM

Well after Webers offer sheet I think the Canucks should stay away from big names(unless we draft them) and like the A's moneyball start doing "Moneypuck" I would start figuring out how to "catagorize" players but I suck at math lol. Is the any Canuck fans with wicked math skills who could start a Moneypuck forum with a list of categories ..i.e. ppg%, +- , from a team persperctive and then we could all have fun seeing who meets our needs. Because I for one never want to see a 100 million contract here in Van unless its a the 2nd comming if ya know what I mean
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#2 John.Tallhouse

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:01 AM

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#3 ChaosCanucks

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:02 AM

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We're one of the biggest hockey markets with substantial and dedicated ownership, our ticket prices are one of the most ridiculous and our city is one of, if not the most "unaffordable" city in North America. Therefore, we have all the advantages of being a "New York Yankee" team... why on earth do you want to play "moneyball" when you've got the money to win?

i.e. Compare the historical and recent successes between the A's and the Yankees to find out which team you'd rather be.

This Weber reaction is borderline insane... Weber was NOT coming to Vancouver despite the fanboys clamouring. Deal with it.

EDIT:
Wanting players who play above their salaries is obviously logical and goes great lengths to help teams in the new NHL... but I'm just stating that there is no reason why we should be limiting ourselves from big market names save for bad fit or better deals.

Edited by ChaosCanucks, 19 July 2012 - 11:03 AM.

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#4 Line Juggler

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:07 AM

Gillis has a formula that he follows and there are rare instances where he will break those rules.

The terms Philly offered for Weber are too extreme for an exception to the rule for Gillis.

Gillis doesn't seem that interested in "Bold" moves anymore.

Edited by Line Juggler, 19 July 2012 - 11:08 AM.

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#5 Happy Gilmore

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:59 AM

Billy Beane implemented a "moneyball" philosophy because Oakland is a small market and they simply can not afford to keep high end players. Vancouver does not have this problem at all.
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#6 elvis15

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:04 PM

There's a difference between bold and stupid, and offering a 14 year contract worth over a hundred million dollars and a salary including bonuses of $14M the first 4 years just after CBA negotiations have started and the owners/GMs/NHL have just tabled a proposal that suggests max 5 year deals and reduced shares of revenue for players is stupid.

And people freak out over Luongo getting a deal like he did making $10M the first year and then $6.7M for awhile after. What's next, Evander Kane getting a 20 year deal worth over $120M before the new CBA kicks in?
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#7 Everybody Hates Raymond

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:30 PM

Gillis has a formula that he follows and there are rare instances where he will break those rules.

The terms Philly offered for Weber are too extreme for an exception to the rule for Gillis.

Gillis doesn't seem that interested in "Bold" moves anymore.

Which is perfectly okay.

The Canucks core is solid. They went to the Stanley Cup finals together and are a tightly intertwined group. It's more or less at this point like a jigsaw puzzle - Gillis has to find the small pieces that put it together. There's no sense breaking half of that jigsaw puzzle apart just to try and build it again.
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#8 Tragoedia

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:33 PM

We're one of the biggest hockey markets with substantial and dedicated ownership, our ticket prices are one of the most ridiculous and our city is one of, if not the most "unaffordable" city in North America. Therefore, we have all the advantages of being a "New York Yankee" team... why on earth do you want to play "moneyball" when you've got the money to win?

i.e. Compare the historical and recent successes between the A's and the Yankees to find out which team you'd rather be.

This Weber reaction is borderline insane... Weber was NOT coming to Vancouver despite the fanboys clamouring. Deal with it.

EDIT:
Wanting players who play above their salaries is obviously logical and goes great lengths to help teams in the new NHL... but I'm just stating that there is no reason why we should be limiting ourselves from big market names save for bad fit or better deals.


2 words. SALARY CAP.
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#9 canucklax

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:36 PM

We're one of the biggest hockey markets with substantial and dedicated ownership, our ticket prices are one of the most ridiculous and our city is one of, if not the most "unaffordable" city in North America. Therefore, we have all the advantages of being a "New York Yankee" team... why on earth do you want to play "moneyball" when you've got the money to win?

i.e. Compare the historical and recent successes between the A's and the Yankees to find out which team you'd rather be.

Billy Beane implemented a "moneyball" philosophy because Oakland is a small market and they simply can not afford to keep high end players. Vancouver does not have this problem at all.


exactly, a nashville, or columbus or phoenix needs moneyball, Vancouver has ownership that is willing to pay
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#10 Raiun

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

There's a difference between bold and stupid, and offering a 14 year contract worth over a hundred million dollars and a salary including bonuses of $14M the first 4 years just after CBA negotiations have started and the owners/GMs/NHL have just tabled a proposal that suggests max 5 year deals and reduced shares of revenue for players is stupid.

And people freak out over Luongo getting a deal like he did making $10M the first year and then $6.7M for awhile after. What's next, Evander Kane getting a 20 year deal worth over $120M before the new CBA kicks in?


Sounds awesome. Send him that offersheet MG!
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#11 Kryten

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:49 PM

Which is perfectly okay.

The Canucks core is solid. They went to the Stanley Cup finals together and are a tightly intertwined group. It's more or less at this point like a jigsaw puzzle - Gillis has to find the small pieces that put it together. There's no sense breaking half of that jigsaw puzzle apart just to try and build it again.


Very well said. I would rather a GM who thinks ahead as opposed to a GM who reacts to the market. Sure the latter could get lucky but the odds are not on his side. GMMG is obviously mindful of the future.......................aaaaaaaand cue the Star Wars geeks. Posted Image

Edited by Kryten, 19 July 2012 - 01:57 PM.

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#12 keslerian one

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:10 PM

I think people mis-understand the concept of Moneyball... because the movie really gave it a truncated view.

If it wasn't already clear from A's failure to win anything with Beane, it's really really really hard to win championships with that philosophy. It's great for a small market team to compete, but it's not a championship driven philosophy.

Beane's influence had a lot of impact around baseball, and Boston, Toronto among other teams began employing his strategies. The biggest pillar in moneyball is to look at advanced statistics that other teams did not pay enough attention to. Spending little money is almost a bonus byproduct, because stats gave these teams an advantage that other teams did not. Boston implemented this but also spent money on big names - eventually ending the curse of Bambino.

Canucks organization also uses advanced stats - clearly, trading for/signing players that have great Corsi numbers and other underlying stats. It's also clear that rather than looking at +/-s or shot on goal, the team looks at the quality of scoring chances and other metrics.

So yes, the Canucks - under MG - have been very innovative and have used advanced stats, which really makes up moneyball's essential strategy.

We are one of the biggest hockey markets and have a good owner who's willing to spend. We shouldn't just equate moneyball with "not spending" and espouse it. Whatever it takes to win should be our mantra, and I support the philosophy that MG is following.

That is all.
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#13 Jai604

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:02 PM

I think people mis-understand the concept of Moneyball... because the movie really gave it a truncated view.

If it wasn't already clear from A's failure to win anything with Beane, it's really really really hard to win championships with that philosophy. It's great for a small market team to compete, but it's not a championship driven philosophy.

Beane's influence had a lot of impact around baseball, and Boston, Toronto among other teams began employing his strategies. The biggest pillar in moneyball is to look at advanced statistics that other teams did not pay enough attention to. Spending little money is almost a bonus byproduct, because stats gave these teams an advantage that other teams did not. Boston implemented this but also spent money on big names - eventually ending the curse of Bambino.

Canucks organization also uses advanced stats - clearly, trading for/signing players that have great Corsi numbers and other underlying stats. It's also clear that rather than looking at +/-s or shot on goal, the team looks at the quality of scoring chances and other metrics.

So yes, the Canucks - under MG - have been very innovative and have used advanced stats, which really makes up moneyball's essential strategy.

We are one of the biggest hockey markets and have a good owner who's willing to spend. We shouldn't just equate moneyball with "not spending" and espouse it. Whatever it takes to win should be our mantra, and I support the philosophy that MG is following.

That is all.


Exactly what I wanted to say.

The Canucks already employ so-called "moneyball" systems when evaluating players. Gillis also has an internal team salary structure and monetary values assigned to certain statistics that players are measured for.


The honest truth that a lot of people have had a hard time understanding is that making a deal happen takes both sides. It's moronic to think that Gillis can just go out and make a deal happen. A great example of this are Suter and Weber, both of whom had never had any intention of playing here, ever. Yet, fans want MG's head for not tendering an offersheet to Weber and not throwing a deal at Suter. Problem is, they forget that both Weber and Suter had to want to be a Canuck in the first place.

We have our core in place, and what Gillis is doing is surrounding that core with the best available players he can find at reasonable salaries, or at times even players have have been undervalued on the market. You could call that "moneyball" if you like.
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#14 ice orca

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:12 PM

We're one of the biggest hockey markets with substantial and dedicated ownership, our ticket prices are one of the most ridiculous and our city is one of, if not the most "unaffordable" city in North America. Therefore, we have all the advantages of being a "New York Yankee" team... why on earth do you want to play "moneyball" when you've got the money to win?

i.e. Compare the historical and recent successes between the A's and the Yankees to find out which team you'd rather be.

This Weber reaction is borderline insane... Weber was NOT coming to Vancouver despite the fanboys clamouring. Deal with it.

EDIT:
Wanting players who play above their salaries is obviously logical and goes great lengths to help teams in the new NHL... but I'm just stating that there is no reason why we should be limiting ourselves from big market names save for bad fit or better deals.


You have to play moneypuck to a certain extent but to blow it all on 1 player who might get you a cup is bulls.it
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#15 dura_mater

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:30 PM

Well after Webers offer sheet I think the Canucks should stay away from big names(unless we draft them) and like the A's moneyball start doing "Moneypuck" I would start figuring out how to "catagorize" players but I suck at math lol. Is the any Canuck fans with wicked math skills who could start a Moneypuck forum with a list of categories ..i.e. ppg%, +- , from a team persperctive and then we could all have fun seeing who meets our needs. Because I for one never want to see a 100 million contract here in Van unless its a the 2nd comming if ya know what I mean


It sounds like some people dont' understand how a salary cap works. It doesn't matter if Vancouver is a large market and can afford larger contracts, there is still a limit. Also, MG has been implementing a "moneyball/puck" strategy for awhile now. As well as advanced statistics to rate players.
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#16 Uller34

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:37 PM

Well I am glad people seem interested in the topic,but..... The point is to find someone good at math so WE(the fans) can have fun trying to find the gold nuggets...BECAUSE we dont want to spend all on 1 or 2 players. Cap system people....110 mil for any player is crazy....so let find 2-3 players for 110 mil...I didnt say small market dont spend money....I wanted us to have some fun doing "moneypuck" getting thos peices that work just as well(if not better) as the idiocy of 110 mill to one player. Point...does anyone believe that Minny spending 200 mill on 2 players or philly spending 110 has made them anything more than "making" the playoffs? So anyone up to try and do some math? lol
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#17 DeNiro

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:41 PM

Edler and Hamhuis or Weber?


Hmmm.
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#18 HockeyHobo73

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:48 AM

I hope you all know that ALL teams in ALL professional sports leagues use the "Moneyball" approach.. The A's were the first team to use it, but that was a long time ago... Statistical analysis is part of professional sports now... It's funny when people keep talking about Gillis using the "Moneyball" approach.... Obviously they are or they wouldn't be running our team...

Edited by HockeyHobo73, 20 July 2012 - 12:49 AM.

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#19 Bodee

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:03 AM

TEAMS win cups.

We came within a hairs breadth of proving that............but we met an even harder TEAM who were too big and too strong (by the time the finals came) but only just.

The only problem we have is we are not addressing the factors which "did us" in the end. We don't need Weber to do that. Our salary structure it seems does not allow us to go after the finished article.

However the "bold move" is addressing the problem and going out and backing your judgement when you go for the "potential" Weber or Parise.
Our scouts, as I implied in my deleted thread have not convinced me they have that judgement yet.
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#20 xCANUCKAHOLICx

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:08 AM

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#21 Kola Nuts

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:19 AM

Why is it that VAN fans always feel entitled to players signing/being traded here. It's a big league.

We've been VERY lucky with guys like Garrisson, Hamhuis,Sedins, Burrows, Kesler, Schneider all signing here with competitive contracts. That's MONEYBALL'n.

Can't wait to find out what the team looks like after Luongo is traded. We have a very solid team top to bottom.
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#22 samurai

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:47 AM

The philly/weber move was as most people will recognize classless. Nashville has done everything right in building up a hockey fan base and this will have an impact on that market in a rather negative manner. It is dirty move and you can bet most owners including Bettman will be unhappy with this.

Philly is a knee jerk organization - throw silly at the first free agent goalie they come across - dump Richards and Carter who turn around and win a cup, and now this.
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#23 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:03 AM

If you're looking more at the numbers side of the game, I suggest reading about advanced stats. Pretty interesting stuff. There are some blogs out there that talk about it, and more and more people are starting to accept it as good metrics of how good certain players are.
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#24 elvis15

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:07 PM

Sounds awesome. Send him that offersheet MG!

It's not 90% #CONFIRMED until SamJam or HockeyyInsiderr tweets it. :emot-parrot:
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#25 Dogbyte

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:55 PM

Well after Webers offer sheet I think the Canucks should stay away from big names(unless we draft them) and like the A's moneyball start doing "Moneypuck" I would start figuring out how to "catagorize" players but I suck at math lol. Is the any Canuck fans with wicked math skills who could start a Moneypuck forum with a list of categories ..i.e. ppg%, +- , from a team persperctive and then we could all have fun seeing who meets our needs. Because I for one never want to see a 100 million contract here in Van unless its a the 2nd comming if ya know what I mean

That approach won't work in hockey where scoring isn't as easy as getting a base hit or making a simple pass. You can't succeed by just having a high on base percentage (or high passing completion ratio) it helps but doens't translate directly into scoring goals like getting on base does in baseball.

Moneyball is a garbage idea when it comes to hockey and I hope MG isn't following that to a T.
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#26 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:08 PM

Canucks would've offersheeted Weber themselves, but it certainly would've been matched.
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#27 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 02:15 PM

The problem with trying to use 'moneypuck' as an advantage is that all the contending teams are doing it. To gain any edge, you have to look at all the angles. Not just 'moneypuck', which to most has no clear definition.
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#28 CanucksFanMike

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 07:50 PM

Billy Beane implemented a "moneyball" philosophy because Oakland is a small market and they simply can not afford to keep high end players. Vancouver does not have this problem at all.


This

We have owners willing to spend so no need to be conservative
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#29 SEAN HARNETT

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 09:49 PM

This is a very interesting topic. My view is the Canucks are a large enough market to sign players "Who want to be here" at reasonible contracts. However, this market is not big enough to compete with the larger markets under the current cap system. I was sick to my staomach when I heard about the Parise,Suter, and now Weber signing's. The Canucks simply cannot afford to compete in a market where contracts are being thrown around this way. As I said already, the team has the resources to compete in a fair market system, but not with the way things are currently.

If the new CBA cures the problems of long term contracts that are heavily front loaded and can sustain a fair market system, then the Canucks can compete with the LA's,NY's, Philly's and Pittsburgh's of the NHL.
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#30 Phil_314

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:03 PM

Exactly what I wanted to say.

The Canucks already employ so-called "moneyball" systems when evaluating players. Gillis also has an internal team salary structure and monetary values assigned to certain statistics that players are measured for.

The honest truth that a lot of people have had a hard time understanding is that making a deal happen takes both sides. It's moronic to think that Gillis can just go out and make a deal happen. A great example of this are Suter and Weber, both of whom had never had any intention of playing here, ever. Yet, fans want MG's head for not tendering an offersheet to Weber and not throwing a deal at Suter. Problem is, they forget that both Weber and Suter had to want to be a Canuck in the first place.

We have our core in place, and what Gillis is doing is surrounding that core with the best available players he can find at reasonable salaries, or at times even players have have been undervalued on the market. You could call that "moneyball" if you like.


Exactly what I wanted to say! ::D
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