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Can the Canucks impose their will on other teams?


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#31 John.Tallhouse

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:17 PM

Staying healthy....
Players getting hot at the right time....


Fair enough, but do we wait & hope that guys can get back to 100% or do we start making some aggressive moves and change our formula in hopes we can hoist the cup? I have faith in the guys we have now (hope'n Kesler can get his groove back) & yes we need a few fresh faces in some spots but there are plenty of avenues we can take into next season...
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#32 cIutch

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:18 PM

and how is that an accomplishment?
that was the most embarrasing SCF appearance in the history of this franchise.
the 82 team that got swept by the Isles showed more will and determination.

they won 3 games

Edited by cIutch, 19 July 2012 - 07:18 PM.

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#33 Hugemanskost

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:36 PM

I think the OP has a valid point. The Canucks need some more physical players or they need the players they have to play more physically.

I know many CDC'ers are pretty young, but, IMO, the Canucks need to show the collective fight that both of their finals teams in '94 and '82 had. These teams both had some "stars", obviously, but I want to mention the tough guys who really made a difference.

In '82, the massive underdog Canucks had very little skill, but, they hit every little thing that moved and they fought like hell for one another for 4 rounds. The Canucks had some pretty tough players back at this time... Tiger Williams, Jimmy Nill, Stan Smyl, Curt Fraser, Harold Snepsts, Darcy Rota, Ronny Delorme, even little Collie Campbell would chuck the knuckles. These are the types of players that the Canucks of 2012-13 sorely lack.

In '94, once again, the Canucks had way more togetherness and fight than today's team. Gino Odjick, Dave Babych, Gerald Diduck, Robert Dirk, Tim Hunter, Shawn Antoski, Dana Murzyn, Mike Peca, Sergio Momesso and even Geoff Courtnall. Once again, these guys fought, battled and stuck together for 24 games... a post away from going to OT in game 7.

Who does the 12-13 version of the Canucks have with these intangibles? Bieksa? Weise? Ummm... Bieksa?

I love the skill game and I am not into pure "goons", but the Canucks do need to get more physical while keeping their skill the main focus of their play.

:towel: :canucks:

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#34 nuck nit

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:55 PM

I think the OP has a valid point. The Canucks need some more physical players or they need the players they have to play more physically.

I know many CDC'ers are pretty young, but, IMO, the Canucks need to show the collective fight that both of their finals teams in '94 and '82 had. These teams both had some "stars", obviously, but I want to mention the tough guys who really made a difference.

In '82, the massive underdog Canucks had very little skill, but, they hit every little thing that moved and they fought like hell for one another for 4 rounds. The Canucks had some pretty tough players back at this time... Tiger Williams, Jimmy Nill, Stan Smyl, Curt Fraser, Harold Snepsts, Darcy Rota, Ronny Delorme, even little Collie Campbell would chuck the knuckles. These are the types of players that the Canucks of 2012-13 sorely lack.

In '94, once again, the Canucks had way more togetherness and fight than today's team. Gino Odjick, Dave Babych, Gerald Diduck, Robert Dirk, Tim Hunter, Shawn Antoski, Dana Murzyn, Mike Peca, Sergio Momesso and even Geoff Courtnall. Once again, these guys fought, battled and stuck together for 24 games... a post away from going to OT in game 7.

Who does the 12-13 version of the Canucks have with these intangibles? Bieksa? Weise? Ummm... Bieksa?

I love the skill game and I am not into pure "goons", but the Canucks do need to get more physical while keeping their skill the main focus of their play.

:towel: :canucks:


I have to agree.

Watching how Gillis assembled the team he was reticent to employ brawn and went for skill.

That is a reflection of who he was as a player but not the realities of a well rounded NHL contending team.

Torres,Rypien,Samuelsson,Rome -these guys were tough.

After a few years of the skill only game Gillis is finally coming around to drafting size and trading for some grit.

He was focused on skill up front but as a career forward forgot that it is the skilled d men that control the game.

Bieksa for Ehrhoff was a no no that has cost him.Could not land Schultz although he wanted to play here and has not signed a d man that can control the game.

#35 HockeyHobo73

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:20 PM

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Like this?

#36 Nancouver

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:25 PM

In 10/11 the team was so dominant on the pp that other teams couldn't afford to take liberties with our players....then came the scf. Once the refs put their whistles away the bruins took advantage. This year was a little of the same but it was like the cat was out of the bag and the nucks weaknesses had been exposed in the cup final, then the pp fell apart for who knows why. With out the pp working offence dried up and we had to rely on stellar goaltending. Point of the story is the only thing scaring other teams before was our scoring, without that pp working or some tougher players what's to be scared of?

Edited by Nancouver, 19 July 2012 - 09:32 PM.


#37 winacup

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:50 PM

they won 3 games


let's give them a mamby pamby participation ribbon then
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#38 icycold

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:21 PM

We're nowhere big enough for that, period.
HABS SUCK!!!

#39 KSniper88

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:29 PM

can someone say sedinary now that's imposing your will the proper way...

#40 bluesman60

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:51 PM

MG built this team to be exciting to watch....not to play trap hockey. Basically the NHL has failed in that they said that they were going to crack down on interference/obstruction and pic plays but have now started reverting back to putting the blinders on when that happens (especially so in the playoffs).
Our 1st line has two non physical players that could really use a Bobby Ryan or a Rick Nash to clear some room for them to operate (no offense to Burrows because he has done a great job but we could use a bigger forward with the Sedins). In tight checking games this becomes apparent.
Our 2nd line really really needs a healthy Ryan Kesler. He is taking a beating out there..... I would like to see someone else screening on the PP. Kseler is the key to making the 2nd line successful so putting him in a position to pick up a collection of injuries just doesn't make sense. We do not have a surplus of centers that can just step in and fill in for Kesler so keeping him healthy is tantamount. A healthy Kesler and Daniel Sedin would have made a world of difference against LA or against Boston. I am not sure if we have anyone that would be as effective as Kesler screening on the PP but it might be time to address that shortcoming.
We can always use more grit and size but those elements are accumulated over a few seasons as the roster changes.
I do not see the 'Captain' as being the problem at all and see Henrik as a good leader who leads by example. We just need the team to back up all the yapping or respond when someone mugs one of our players....that is sadly lacking on this team. Whether the players are being held back is something that needs to change. Guys like Bieksa play their best when they play a beligerent game....turn them loose and let the rest of the team back them up. Garrison is a physical player and I sure hope that he isn't told to turn the other cheek because it will take away from what he does best.

Edited by bluesman60, 19 July 2012 - 10:55 PM.


#41 bluesman60

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:06 PM

I think the OP has a valid point. The Canucks need some more physical players or they need the players they have to play more physically.

I know many CDC'ers are pretty young, but, IMO, the Canucks need to show the collective fight that both of their finals teams in '94 and '82 had. These teams both had some "stars", obviously, but I want to mention the tough guys who really made a difference.

In '82, the massive underdog Canucks had very little skill, but, they hit every little thing that moved and they fought like hell for one another for 4 rounds. The Canucks had some pretty tough players back at this time... Tiger Williams, Jimmy Nill, Stan Smyl, Curt Fraser, Harold Snepsts, Darcy Rota, Ronny Delorme, even little Collie Campbell would chuck the knuckles. These are the types of players that the Canucks of 2012-13 sorely lack.

In '94, once again, the Canucks had way more togetherness and fight than today's team. Gino Odjick, Dave Babych, Gerald Diduck, Robert Dirk, Tim Hunter, Shawn Antoski, Dana Murzyn, Mike Peca, Sergio Momesso and even Geoff Courtnall. Once again, these guys fought, battled and stuck together for 24 games... a post away from going to OT in game 7.

Who does the 12-13 version of the Canucks have with these intangibles? Bieksa? Weise? Ummm... Bieksa?

I love the skill game and I am not into pure "goons", but the Canucks do need to get more physical while keeping their skill the main focus of their play.

:towel: :canucks:


I don't think that we had some of those players in '94 (eg Peca, Antoski).
I think that we do have some of those type of players on this team but they are being held back because we think that the PP is going to win the game. When the whistles are put away in the playoffs or when we play a team like Boston or Philly who the refs are used to seeing playing physical....our PP doesn't get it done. As much as the rulebook is there, some teams are given more leeway than others so we have to adapt and add some grit to compliment our skilled players on the lines.

Edited by bluesman60, 19 July 2012 - 11:13 PM.


#42 babych

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:09 AM

Oh, yeah...Rypien was a real monster. What a joke.

Not too sure what you mean by this. Sure, Rypien wasn't physically a monster but he went with everyone in the league and kept other teams "goons" honest. Why MG decided to let him walk is still a mystery to me - regardless of what Burke would have you believe there's still a place in the game for guys like Rypien.
QUOTE
(shiznak@Jun 17 2008, 08:00 PM)
Kesler was lucky to score 20 this year since the injury to Morrison allowed him to do so.

I doubt Kesler would ever break 15 goals in his career again.

#43 babych

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:10 AM

Ill impose my will in your mouth.



boom.

You call your dong "will"?
QUOTE
(shiznak@Jun 17 2008, 08:00 PM)
Kesler was lucky to score 20 this year since the injury to Morrison allowed him to do so.

I doubt Kesler would ever break 15 goals in his career again.

#44 Hugemanskost

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:15 AM

I don't think that we had some of those players in '94 (eg Peca, Antoski).
I think that we do have some of those type of players on this team but they are being held back because we think that the PP is going to win the game. When the whistles are put away in the playoffs or when we play a team like Boston or Philly who the refs are used to seeing playing physical....our PP doesn't get it done. As much as the rulebook is there, some teams are given more leeway than others so we have to adapt and add some grit to compliment our skilled players on the lines.


Peca only played 4 games, Antoski 55. Neither played in the Finals.

Who are these physical players that the Canucks have? Bieksa? Weise? I just don't see the current roster as anywhere near imposing. They are a skill team and I love to watch skilled hockey, but, we need more physical play.

It's easier said that done to "add grit to compliment our skilled players". Who do you suggest we add?

:towel: :canucks:

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#45 WeatherWise

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:15 AM

Here is a standard conversation between Brian Burke and any of the league's other twenty-nine general managers:



Imposing one's will on another team doesn't always work, but when it does...

Edited by WeatherWise, 20 July 2012 - 08:18 AM.

The greatest segue into a weather segment.

#46 Wilbur

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:18 AM

Physically no.

Through a game of speed and puck possession. Yes.

Is this good enough to win a Stanley Cup. I hope so. The makeup of the last 2 cup winners doesn't give me hope, but the makeup of the 2 cup winners before that do. I still firmly believe that a puck possession team can win the cup even though LA and Bos won with aggressive/tough/fast teams. Chi and Pit were fairly different in style but all 4 teams had 1 thing in common...they stayed healthy.

#47 Bodee

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:54 AM

I think we can impose our will.................in a one game takes all. We showed it against Boston, Detroit and NYR in the league.

Where it breaks down is when it is a best of 4. Let's face it when a tough team like Boston or NYR realise they are not getting it done, they "up the physicality"...........who wouldn't they? (when they have it in their locker) after all they have a "best of 7" to wear us down.

I think we need to "beef up" our lines. We don't need Perry or Weber to do that. I have posted a few times that if we can get Doan for the 1st I would like to see us get Clowe for the 2nd. If Kassian shapes up he takes care of the 3rd and Volpatti and Pinizzotto with Lapierre rounds off our forward pushback.

I would also like to see us acquire a 3rd line "comer" like Sbisa and Cameron Gaunce for Alberts.

All this conjecture seems miles away from MG's thinking though so we will have to stay patient and hopefully be pleasantly surprised. :)

Edited by Bodee, 20 July 2012 - 08:56 AM.

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#48 babych

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 09:39 AM

I think we can impose our will.................in a one game takes all. We showed it against Boston, Detroit and NYR in the league.

Where it breaks down is when it is a best of 4. Let's face it when a tough team like Boston or NYR realise they are not getting it done, they "up the physicality"...........who wouldn't they? (when they have it in their locker) after all they have a "best of 7" to wear us down.

I think we need to "beef up" our lines. We don't need Perry or Weber to do that. I have posted a few times that if we can get Doan for the 1st I would like to see us get Clowe for the 2nd. If Kassian shapes up he takes care of the 3rd and Volpatti and Pinizzotto with Lapierre rounds off our forward pushback.

I would also like to see us acquire a 3rd line "comer" like Sbisa and Cameron Gaunce for Alberts.

All this conjecture seems miles away from MG's thinking though so we will have to stay patient and hopefully be pleasantly surprised. :)


Actually, in a one game takes all Boston beat Vancouver quite handily.
QUOTE
(shiznak@Jun 17 2008, 08:00 PM)
Kesler was lucky to score 20 this year since the injury to Morrison allowed him to do so.

I doubt Kesler would ever break 15 goals in his career again.

#49 bluesman60

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 10:13 AM

Peca only played 4 games, Antoski 55. Neither played in the Finals.

Who are these physical players that the Canucks have? Bieksa? Weise? I just don't see the current roster as anywhere near imposing. They are a skill team and I love to watch skilled hockey, but, we need more physical play.

It's easier said that done to "add grit to compliment our skilled players". Who do you suggest we add?

:towel: :canucks:


What?.You want me to tell MG how to do his job? How about Doan? If he is not available....go find someone else. I would think that it should be easier to obtain grit than a skilled forward like the Sedins. Grit is a shortcoming on the Canucks....who do you suggest?

#50 suolucidir

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 10:29 AM

The SCF Canucks imposed their will. Their play wasn't the most physycal, but it wasn't the softest either. We consistently outhit our opponents, even if they were larger. Plus they could move the puck around REALLY well, so if you overextended yourself you'd get burned. This year's team is a little tougher on the back end, but can they move the puck as well as we did when we had Ehrhoff?

Need two top 9 forwards and a depth D to match expectations of that year.
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#51 SukhKular

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 10:30 AM

Boom. Roasted.
I'm saying Aladeen a lot because http://forum.canucks...dpost__10922428

I bet when Schneider turns 38, he will have broken all of Luongo's records.


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#52 suolucidir

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 10:32 AM

Not too sure what you mean by this. Sure, Rypien wasn't physically a monster but he went with everyone in the league and kept other teams "goons" honest. Why MG decided to let him walk is still a mystery to me - regardless of what Burke would have you believe there's still a place in the game for guys like Rypien.

I mean no disrespect to Ryp, but he was unreliable. That may sound cold, but MG''s running a multi-million dollar business.

Unrelated, I was driving through that town when it happened. RIP :(
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It bugs me when people pull out the gold medal for an example... Luongo only had to outplay Brodeur.


#53 babych

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:12 AM

I mean no disrespect to Ryp, but he was unreliable. That may sound cold, but MG''s running a multi-million dollar business.

Unrelated, I was driving through that town when it happened. RIP :(

I totally see your point. As effective as he could be at times there were other times when he hurt the team with his play.
QUOTE
(shiznak@Jun 17 2008, 08:00 PM)
Kesler was lucky to score 20 this year since the injury to Morrison allowed him to do so.

I doubt Kesler would ever break 15 goals in his career again.

#54 Hugemanskost

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:17 AM

What?.You want me to tell MG how to do his job? How about Doan? If he is not available....go find someone else. I would think that it should be easier to obtain grit than a skilled forward like the Sedins. Grit is a shortcoming on the Canucks....who do you suggest?


Answer a question with 4 more questions, eh? Way to avoid the original question. I simply asked who you would sign to fill the Canuck's need for a physical player(s).

I agree that the Canucks need to be more physical but, I don't necessarily believe they need to acquire more players to do so. The players they have need to play more physically. Maybe this is a team philosophy, playing "between the whistles", to get the PP on the ice, but, it has proven unsuccessful since Game 3 of the Cup Final against Boston in '11.

Signing Doan would be great, but, for you to just say, "How about Doan?", is silly. Obviously, the Canucks are trying to do just this. Unfortunately, the situation is in Doan's hands, not the Canuck's. He has all the cards and will sign wherever he wants. I agree with you that the Canucks should sign him.

Who would I sign? Hannan? Colaiacovo? Arnott? Commodore? Vandermeer? Eaton? Cap space is pretty tight to sign guys right now with just over $3M remaining. MG seems to be waiting on Doan.

:towel: :canucks:

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#55 Bodee

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:21 PM

Actually, in a one game takes all Boston beat Vancouver quite handily.


Except that I said "in the league" just to avoid your acute observation.



"We consistently outhit our opponents, even if they were larger"

And sadly folks.........there we have it. We then took our place in the A&E to prove it.


"The players they have need to play more physically."

If only it was that easy. We tried that in 2010-11 and got severely banged up. I don't understand comments like that, it's almost as if you slept through the last 2/3 SCs.

In simple terms if you have a team of mostly average sized players, who hit and players who don't hit playing a bigger team, like Boston, the ones who do hit (and the ones who don't) are battered by game 3.
The SC is more physical.

Edited by Bodee, 20 July 2012 - 01:35 PM.

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#56 babych

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 01:42 PM

Except that I said "in the league" just to avoid your acute observation.



"We consistently outhit our opponents, even if they were larger"

And sadly folks.........there we have it. We then took our place in the A&E to prove it.


"The players they have need to play more physically."

If only it was that easy. We tried that in 2010-11 and got severely banged up. I don't understand comments like that, it's almost as if you slept through the last 2/3 SCs.

In simple terms if you have a team of mostly average sized players, who hit and players who don't hit playing a bigger team, like Boston, the ones who do hit (and the ones who don't) are battered by game 3.
The SC is more physical.

Which is why I'm suggesting that the Canucks are not able to "impose their will" to the degree that they should. Yes, they can outhit their opponents and yes, they can play a great puck possession game but, when matched against the teams with heavy, skilled forwards they tend to come up a little short.

Beating Boston, New York and Detroit in the regular season really isn't any measure of Vancouver being able to impose their will.
QUOTE
(shiznak@Jun 17 2008, 08:00 PM)
Kesler was lucky to score 20 this year since the injury to Morrison allowed him to do so.

I doubt Kesler would ever break 15 goals in his career again.

#57 Bodee

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:00 PM

Which is why I'm suggesting that the Canucks are not able to "impose their will" to the degree that they should. Yes, they can outhit their opponents and yes, they can play a great puck possession game but, when matched against the teams with heavy, skilled forwards they tend to come up a little short.

Beating Boston, New York and Detroit in the regular season really isn't any measure of Vancouver being able to impose their will.


Fair enough, that is your opinion. However if you cast your mind back to all 3 of theses games there was undoubtedly a public and media interest on what the outcome would be and a LOT of prestige was riding on each game for different reasons.

Boston...........pummelling all before them and itching to send us once more into despair in front of their own fans. We imposed our will on them and they crumbled in the league for a while, after it.

Detroit would have recorded a record no of wins in a row (I think it was something like that) if they had beaten us. We imposed our will on their home ice and spoiled their day.

I forget now the exact scenario surrounding New Jersey (not NYR) but I think we needed to win to take 1st place in the League and we were 4 games on the road. I quote:
"Despite arriving in Newark at 3 a.m. ET on Friday following their dramatic 4-3 shootout victory in Detroit on Thursday, the Canucks appeared to have more jump in the opening 20 minutes."
I think we proved that even with the late arrival and the hard game in Detroit we could impose our game, again on foreign ice.

In my opinion with one or two additions these were undoubtedly the best performances we produced all season.

I seriously doubt if we would have beaten any of these teams if we had turned them into a best of 7.
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