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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread (Keep all discussion here)


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#2191 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 07:10 PM

That's waaaay not enough. What about

To Vancouver: Troy Brouwer + 2013 1st

To Washington: Roberto Luongo

That's a little more fair.


Yuck, you want en ex Hawk? I'll take the first though.

Van

Alzner, 1st

Was

Luongo, Raymond

DONE

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Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#2192 Pears

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 07:16 PM

Yuck, you want en ex Hawk? I'll take the first though.

Van

Alzner, 1st

Was

Luongo, Raymond

DONE

I'd take Alzner and a 1st too. However, the reason for getting Brouwer is because he is one of the best third liners in the league and has a Cup ring.

In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


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#2193 The-Impersonator

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 02:28 PM

He was responding to a samjam tweet that said Botch was specifically talking about Tor. Botch was saying it's not specifically Tor.


I would believe SamJam over Botch. Botch is an idiot.

#2194 WiDeN

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 02:33 PM

All along I've been saying Washington could be the dark horse/mystery team to land Luongo. Plus Washington I think has better pieces than Chicago and Toronto.

I've been thinking the same for some time.

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#2195 King of the ES

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 02:34 PM

All along I've been saying Washington could be the dark horse/mystery team to land Luongo. Plus Washington I think has better pieces than Chicago and Toronto.


Braden Holtby looks pretty promising, I'm not sure Washington's in a rush to hitch themselves to another lifetime deal.

And I also wouldn't be so sure that Lou would want to go there, anyway.

#2196 oldnews

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 05:27 PM

Braden Holtby looks pretty promising, I'm not sure Washington's in a rush to hitch themselves to another lifetime deal.

And I also wouldn't be so sure that Lou would want to go there, anyway.


Newsflash:
Mr wet blanket isn't sure what George McPhee thinks.
Also not sure what Lou wants.

Riveting.

Anyone else you want to try to speak for?

#2197 WiDeN

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 05:31 PM

Braden Holtby looks pretty promising, I'm not sure Washington's in a rush to hitch themselves to another lifetime deal.

And I also wouldn't be so sure that Lou would want to go there, anyway.

I wouldn't be so sure they're not. There is a lot of pressure to win there. Their window is not getting any bigger, and they've lost Semin this off-season. Luongo would make them a better team for sure.

Washington is getting closer to Florida, and they are a good team. I would be surprised of Lu nixed that one.

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#2198 WiDeN

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 05:34 PM

Come on.... the dynamic duo of Luvechkin?

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#2199 King of the ES

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 07:16 PM

Anyone else you want to try to speak for?


At least I'm not trying to speak on behalf of respected NHL owners like Mike Illitch:

I imagine Devallano's boss was pleased with his analogy, but it's reductive and doesn't hold water for a number of reasons.

#2200 zombieksa

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 08:01 PM

Lp
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#2201 oldnews

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 08:24 PM

At least I'm not trying to speak on behalf of respected NHL owners like Mike Illitch:

I imagine Devallano's boss was pleased with his analogy, but it's reductive and doesn't hold water for a number of reasons.


Just curious - Illitch was a baseball player, then opened a Little Caesar's, grew it into a chain, bought the Red Wings... does that make him more respectable than someone like McPhee who is a mere GM or Luongo, who is mere "cattle" in Devallano's analogy?

Regardless, apparently you may have missed the fact that Devallano works for Illitch, and as his Senior VP, has some authority to speak on behalf of the Red-Wings - he's been there 30 years since Illitch bought the team, probably not by misrepresenting them. His analogy was quite favorable to his boss' negotiating position, something he may know something about, given the fact he states clearly that he's a part of and present in those negotiations. Maybe a little too complicated for an average Joe like you or I to understand.

Did you read the original post? "Interesting read here. Perspective from the management (owner's) side."

You and the Capitals on the other hand, I doubt have the same relationship... or you and Luongo - somehow I suspect that when you claim to know what Luongo wants, you're talking out your ass.

What is your position regarding Luongo again? Still trying to find some consistencies.

KoES: "Yeah, well, Cory Schneider would NOT have signed the deal that he did unless he had been explicitly told that it's his turn.
Overall, pretty dumb article. Bringing up past memories of happy times won't erase the fact that Luongo has publicly asked for a trade. He wants out, and he'll get what he wants. And this article fails to explain the logic in a supposed "contender" (with MANY holes, mind you) depolying $5.2M of scarce cap space to a goalie who will be lucky to play in 25% of the games.
In addition, the "bidding war" brought up by the article is irrelevant, because LUONGO CONTROLS WHERE HE ENDS UP, ANYWAY! Long Island can offer us John Tavares and their 1st round picks until 2035, guess what? The trade will be VETOED! This is exactly why it makes no sense to hold on to Luongo."

Edited by oldnews, 23 September 2012 - 12:26 AM.


#2202 Strombone1

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:53 PM

hmm i never heard of the Oilers being interested.. this is news to me. i would not trade him to the Oilers - our division rivals.

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#2203 King of the ES

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:33 AM

Regardless, apparently you may have missed the fact that Devallano works for Illitch, and as his Senior VP, has some authority to speak on behalf of the Red-Wings - he's been there 30 years since Illitch bought the team, probably not by misrepresenting them.


Yes - but YOU don't work for Mike Illitch. You said "I imagine Devellano's boss..."

So what am I doing? Just throwing the totally ridiculous "you can't speak for Washington!" argument that you used at me right back in your face. If I can't make an opinion about what Washington might want to do given their goaltending situation, why can you make an opinion on Mike Illitch's feelings?

#2204 Li'l Fra

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:57 AM

I like pancakes...but you think like a waffle.


#2205 WiDeN

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:00 AM

I made bacon dipped in pancake batter yesterday morning, and it was awesome.

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#2206 oldnews

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:22 AM

I never did care much for waffles. I don't like the way butter pools in those little divots - so hard to spread it evenly.
Pancakes on the other hand, love em. Buttermilk, buckwheat, doesn't matter. Give me some of them.
Bacon in pancake batter sounds like a must try.

#2207 oldnews

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:50 AM

Yes - but YOU don't work for Mike Illitch. You said "I imagine Devellano's boss..."

So what am I doing? Just throwing the totally ridiculous "you can't speak for Washington!" argument that you used at me right back in your face. If I can't make an opinion about what Washington might want to do given their goaltending situation, why can you make an opinion on Mike Illitch's feelings?


I didn't say you can't make an opinion about what Washington wants. My comment regarded what you based that upon - has Washington actually said anything on the matter? I can make an opinion that you base what they want, or what Luongo wants, on next to nothing but your wet blanket.
I can make an opinion about Detroit's negotiating position based on what their Senior VP said extensively in an interview. Imagining that the owner's agent speaks for the owner might be a leap on my part, but I imagine it isn't. Bettman speaks on behalf of the owners - we are left to assume that he represents them, because he speaks on behalf of the owners - they haven't spoken - they leave that to him. Again, if he misrepresented them, he probably wouldn't have been working for them for 20 years, as Devallano pointed out. As I pointed out, Devallano has worked for Illitch for 30 years.
There is a tiny similarity and a huge difference in these contexts KIng.

Anyhow, you cherry picked off topic material from another thread, this one is about Luongo.

I'm curious - you've gone on at great length in this thread that the Canucks should have moved Schneider, and still should move Schneider, so I'm wondering how this quote of yours fits that argument?

"This is exactly why it makes no sense to hold on to Luongo."

#2208 King of the ES

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:59 PM

I'm curious - you've gone on at great length in this thread that the Canucks should have moved Schneider, and still should move Schneider, so I'm wondering how this quote of yours fits that argument?

"This is exactly why it makes no sense to hold on to Luongo."


Because it's too late!

Gillis never moved Schneider, even though most/all assumed that he would, and now Schneider's the starter (which surely was not meant to happen), leaving Lou as the odd man out and the organization's hand forced.

I don't see the logic of hanging onto Luongo, because I don't see how his value raises by sitting around as our backup when age is already a factor.

#2209 oldnews

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:54 PM

Where have I contradicted the stance that for this veteran-laden, built-to-win-now-with-a-closing-window team, Roberto Luongo is the more logical goaltender than Cory Schneider?



Because it's too late haha.
Because Gillis should have moved Schneider before he earned the starting role..
Now no one doubts that he's earned a shot as a legitimate starting goaltender.
In other words, Gillis should have moved Schneider before his value got so high.
You're like the Energizer Bunny of denial.

Edited by oldnews, 23 September 2012 - 08:06 PM.


#2210 King of the ES

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:56 PM

What's your point? Didn't you read my last response?

IT'S TOO LATE! The damage has been done. It doesn't matter that I think Luongo is the more logical goaltender for this team, he is gone. And when I wrote that, I knew then that he was as good as gone, too.

The point is that Mike Gillis has made a MISTAKE by not trading Schneider. Do you understand?

#2211 King of the ES

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:18 PM

Because it's too late haha.
Because Gillis should have moved Schneider before he earned the starting role..
Now no one doubts that he's earned a shot as a legitimate starting goaltender.
In other words, Gillis should have moved Schneider before his value got so high.
You're like the Energizer Bunny of denial.


Yes, exactly! You're finally getting it!

The jist of it is that Mike Gillis got GREEDY! He loved having two elite goaltenders, and even though Schneider should've probably been moved after his rookie season in the NHL, he just instead hung on to them. The gamble worked until Luongo got pulled in the playoffs, the team went forward with Schneider, and the rest is history.

We're now left trading a guy when his value has never been lower. That's why it was a mistake. Trading is a buy low/sell high game. It would've been far smarter to trade Schneider when his value was very high, and thus gotten back a piece of very high value himself. As I've said before, the fundamental equation is this:

Vancouver Canucks with Luongo plus consideration received for Schneider

are better than

Vancouver Canucks with Schneider plus consideration received for Luongo

#2212 smurf47

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:35 PM

Yes, exactly! You're finally getting it!

The jist of it is that Mike Gillis got GREEDY! He loved having two elite goaltenders, and even though Schneider should've probably been moved after his rookie season in the NHL, he just instead hung on to them. The gamble worked until Luongo got pulled in the playoffs, the team went forward with Schneider, and the rest is history.

We're now left trading a guy when his value has never been lower. That's why it was a mistake. Trading is a buy low/sell high game. It would've been far smarter to trade Schneider when his value was very high, and thus gotten back a piece of very high value himself. As I've said before, the fundamental equation is this:

Vancouver Canucks with Luongo plus consideration received for Schneider

are better than

Vancouver Canucks with Schneider plus consideration received for Luongo

Yes, exactly! You're finally getting it!

The jist of it is that Mike Gillis got GREEDY! He loved having two elite goaltenders, and even though Schneider should've probably been moved after his rookie season in the NHL, he just instead hung on to them. The gamble worked until Luongo got pulled in the playoffs, the team went forward with Schneider, and the rest is history.

We're now left trading a guy when his value has never been lower. That's why it was a mistake. Trading is a buy low/sell high game. It would've been far smarter to trade Schneider when his value was very high, and thus gotten back a piece of very high value himself. As I've said before, the fundamental equation is this:

Vancouver Canucks with Luongo plus consideration received for Schneider

are better than

Vancouver Canucks with Schneider plus consideration received for Luongo

Its only your misguided opinion that Schneider should have been moved, and only because of your blind faith in Lou ! Your reasons only make sense to you and contradict what experienced hockey men deem the right path. You need to get off your bicycle and walk for awhile. You are beating a dead horse ! Ever occur to you that you might be wrong in your opinion....you are fixated and in denial...others tell you but you deny, deny deny. Go follow soccer or chess !!

#2213 oldnews

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:38 PM

Yes, exactly! You're finally getting it!

The jist of it is that Mike Gillis got GREEDY! He loved having two elite goaltenders, and even though Schneider should've probably been moved after his rookie season in the NHL, he just instead hung on to them. The gamble worked until Luongo got pulled in the playoffs, the team went forward with Schneider, and the rest is history.

We're now left trading a guy when his value has never been lower. That's why it was a mistake. Trading is a buy low/sell high game. It would've been far smarter to trade Schneider when his value was very high, and thus gotten back a piece of very high value himself. As I've said before, the fundamental equation is this:

Vancouver Canucks with Luongo plus consideration received for Schneider

are better than

Vancouver Canucks with Schneider plus consideration received for Luongo


Haha - it was always easy to get King. And your equation remains as dumb as it was before.
The ironing is that you are arguing that Gilis should have moved Schneider before his value got so high.
And you're whining about not maximizing value.
Which apparently is a contradiction that you will never be able to 'get.'
You don't get the value of keeping Schneider as his value continued to increase.
Essentially, you keep arguing that the Canucks should have sold low, as you highlight, before his value got so high.
That wasn't a gamble. You claim to understand the trading game, but are arguing to trade an asset when the value was still on the rise, and would continue to rise for quite some time, and is actually still rising....
That's just dumb KIng.

#2214 surtur

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:45 PM

I guess the only solution is trade Lu for a Backup and trade Cory for a starter.

Problem Solved.

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#2215 The Bookie

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:40 PM

Looking at it from a buy low/sell high perspective, IMO the time to trade Luongo would have been trade deadline 2011. Prior to that season Schneider still would have been a gamble and wouldn't have garnered a great return. Sure we would have received something useful, but I sincerely doubt it would have been greater than what we'll wind up getting for Lu this year.

So, trade deadline 2011 - Canucks are well on their way to the best regular season in franchise history, and we trade our starting goaltender? That makes no sense. And if we do that, we have our new starting goaltender cramping up two-thirds of the way through the opening game of the playoffs.

#2216 thad

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:04 PM

King of es should have his own pinned thread.. Whenever you feel like arguing with him you just go to the KOE thread and say what's on your mind about the Canucks. The king then finds potential reasons your wrong and you can argue till the lockout ends if you want

#2217 King of the ES

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:58 AM

Haha - it was always easy to get King. And your equation remains as dumb as it was before.
The ironing is that you are arguing that Gilis should have moved Schneider before his value got so high.
And you're whining about not maximizing value.
Which apparently is a contradiction that you will never be able to 'get.'
You don't get the value of keeping Schneider as his value continued to increase.
Essentially, you keep arguing that the Canucks should have sold low, as you highlight, before his value got so high.
That wasn't a gamble. You claim to understand the trading game, but are arguing to trade an asset when the value was still on the rise, and would continue to rise for quite some time, and is actually still rising....


He should've been moved before he supplanted the guy that our GM signed to a 12-year contract in 2009. Do you think Luongo signed that deal under the assumption that this circus would be taking place only 25% into the contract? Mike Gillis always talking about being a "destination franchise" - how are the optics of all of this?

And I'm not arguing that the Canucks should've sold low. You really don't think that a package of significant value could've been had in moving Schneider on Draft Day 2011, for example? He had just come off a Jennings season and a Cup appearance - we could've got a very helpful piece coming our way. A legitimate bidding war could've been created with teams like Columbus, Tampa, Long Island, Toronto, etc., etc. But instead, Gillis balked, hoping that his value will increase EVEN MORE if he's held (greed). Well, it did, but, unfortunately, his value increase came at the expense of Luongo's, and now we're selling Luongo (who's still very good) into a pitiful goaltender's market, where we will almost definitely not get fair value.

RE: your trading comment, it's good to ride the trend, yes, unless you get caught with your pants down when the tide goes out. That's what happened to Mike Gillis here. Ride Schneider, ride Schneider, ride Schneider...whoops, he's now beat up the other guy that we now have to trade, and that nobody really wants, and that he controls where he ends up. Answer me this: do you think this scenario played out as Mike Gillis had envisioned?

Edited by King of the ES, 24 September 2012 - 04:05 AM.


#2218 King of the ES

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:21 AM

Looking at it from a buy low/sell high perspective, IMO the time to trade Luongo would have been trade deadline 2011


But that would've been totally irrational. Veteran team, Cup-ready, trading their starting goaltender and putting in a rookie. Makes no sense.

Kinda like what's happening now, except on a more macro-level (Schneider's not a rookie, per se, though he will be a rookie starter if/when this season commences).

#2219 smurf47

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:25 AM

But that would've been totally irrational. Veteran team, Cup-ready, trading their starting goaltender and putting in a rookie. Makes no sense.

Kinda like what's happening now, except on a more macro-level (Schneider's not a rookie, per se, though he will be a rookie starter if/when this season commences).

Wake up and smell the coffee...its happening ya shmuck !!

#2220 oldnews

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:17 AM

He should've been moved before he supplanted the guy that our GM signed to a 12-year contract in 2009. Do you think Luongo signed that deal under the assumption that this circus would be taking place only 25% into the contract? Mike Gillis always talking about being a "destination franchise" - how are the optics of all of this?

And I'm not arguing that the Canucks should've sold low. You really don't think that a package of significant value could've been had in moving Schneider on Draft Day 2011, for example? He had just come off a Jennings season and a Cup appearance - we could've got a very helpful piece coming our way. A legitimate bidding war could've been created with teams like Columbus, Tampa, Long Island, Toronto, etc., etc. But instead, Gillis balked, hoping that his value will increase EVEN MORE if he's held (greed). Well, it did, but, unfortunately, his value increase came at the expense of Luongo's, and now we're selling Luongo (who's still very good) into a pitiful goaltender's market, where we will almost definitely not get fair value.

RE: your trading comment, it's good to ride the trend, yes, unless you get caught with your pants down when the tide goes out. That's what happened to Mike Gillis here. Ride Schneider, ride Schneider, ride Schneider...whoops, he's now beat up the other guy that we now have to trade, and that nobody really wants, and that he controls where he ends up. Answer me this: do you think this scenario played out as Mike Gillis had envisioned?


drama, overstated drama -big deal, a player is being traded. OMG!!!
you are arguing that they should have sold low - and you're in denial - and in the next few lines you acknowledge that his value in fact increased - making all your whining about projected lost value moot, and a contradiction, as usual.

you evidently know nothing about markets - uh, yes, it is a pitiful goaltender's market, in the sense that Luongo stands alone as far and away the most valuable asset available (which is why suitors are doing their best not to pay through the nose) - a pitiful market in which to be a buyer, and therefore the PERFECT TIME TO BE A SELLER.

no one wants Luongo yammer yammer
(oh, but the Leafs offered Schenn, and I can't stop whining that it didn't pan out...)

This scenario hasn't played out yet. Duh - you don't know the return. :shock:
And the Schneider part - better than could have been envisioned... so yeah, to this point, just fine.




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