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Unprecedented Greenland Ice Melt Stuns NASA Scientists


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#61 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:24 PM

The evidence is that the earth is warming and our actions play a large part. As an engineer why would I disagree with the science?

However, I know that unless everyone gets a first world standard of living off of something else then people are going to do whatever it takes to get there, and the rest of us be damned if we try to stop them.

#62 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:36 PM

Yes.

Edit: Just to be clear though, I believe climate change has happened many times throughout Earth's history. What man is doing right now is just speeding up the current cycle. That is, the global warming part of climate change is not just because of man and what we're doing to the environment...


Well, considering the Earth is over 6 billion years old and it goes through the cycle of precession every 26,000 years, it doesn't take a math genius to figure out that this has taken place "many times throughout Earth's history". And I will respectfully disagree with your last statement. The global warming part of this climate change cycle is not just because of man and what we're doing to the environment? We're the most invasive species on this planet...mind telling me just what ELSE is causing this global warming effect? Next I suppose you are going to try and say that any global warming effects in previous cycles were caused by dinosaur flatulence. :P
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#63 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:38 PM

Well, considering the Earth is over 6 billion years old and it goes through the cycle of precession every 26,000 years, it doesn't take a math genius to figure out that this has taken place "many times throughout Earth's history". And I will respectfully disagree with your last statement. The global warming part of this climate change cycle is not just because of man and what we're doing to the environment? We're the most invasive species on this planet...mind telling me just what ELSE is causing this global warming effect? Next I suppose you are going to try and say that any global warming effects in previous cycles were caused by dinosaur flatulence. :P


Well...it doesn't take a math genius to figure out that industrial man wasn't here 26,000 years ago...even a 12 year old knows that...

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#64 MadMonk

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:42 PM

Changing the climate of the planet is such an enormous task I dont even know when the technology nor energy required would become avail.

Even if we get this, we have no idea what the long term effect of it would be. How about we roll with mother nature and adapt to her instead.


The whole point of acting now rather than later is that we don't have to resort to aggressive geo-enginneering.

#65 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:47 PM

Well...it doesn't take a math genius to figure out that industrial man wasn't here 26,000 years ago...even a 12 year old knows that...


Industrial man may not have been, but his early hominid predecessors certainly were. That's moot though, and irrelevant to what I was saying. I was actually asking you a question which you deftly avoided: "If man and what it is doing to the environment isn't the only thing causing the global warming effect in this climate change cycle, what is?"
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#66 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:48 PM

The whole point of acting now rather than later is that we don't have to resort to aggressive geo-enginneering.


I agree, but we are acting now and have been for a few decades...but I agree, it's not enough...

The real issue is - how do you get everyone in the world to be on the same page?

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#67 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:51 PM

Industrial man may not have been, but his early hominid predecessors certainly were. That's moot though, and irrelevant to what I was saying. I was actually asking you a question which you deftly avoided: "If man and what it is doing to the environment isn't the only thing causing the global warming effect in this climate change cycle, what is?"


You tell me - you're the one that said this has been going on every 26,000 years.

Also, how did man's early predecessors contribute to global warming?

BTW - if you want to me answer a question then don't end it with a condescending and irrelevant remark.

Edited by Heretic, 25 July 2012 - 01:52 PM.

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Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

 

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#68 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:58 PM

No, actually I said the cycle of axial precession has been going on every 26,000 years. I never said global warming took place every 26,000 years. Every 72 years, the Earth on its axis moves backward 1 degree. This is commonly referred to as the precession of equinoxes. So to recap, precession cycles happen every 26,000 years, so there's a POTENTIAL for global climate change. As far as this one goes, we as humans have royally f***ed ourselves in the latter part of this precession cycle, only exacerbating any gradual change that is already present due to the axial shift.
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#69 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:08 PM

Soooo...... Greenland is actually "green" now....

I guess Erik the Red was right.....just 1000 years early.....
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#70 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:12 PM

No, actually I said the cycle of axial precession has been going on every 26,000 years. I never said global warming took place every 26,000 years. Every 72 years, the Earth on its axis moves backward 1 degree. This is commonly referred to as the precession of equinoxes. So to recap, precession cycles happen every 26,000 years, so there's a POTENTIAL for global climate change. As far as this one goes, we as humans have royally f***ed ourselves in the latter part of this precession cycle, only exacerbating any gradual change that is already present due to the axial shift.


The discussion is about global warming and you said
"Well, considering the Earth is over 6 billion years old and it goes through the cycle of precession every 26,000 years, it doesn't take a math genius to figure out that this has taken place "many times throughout Earth's history""

Sounds like you're saying that "this" (global warming) has taken place many times throughout Earth's history.

So I don't misinterpret what you're saying, can you elaborate on your comment about "As far as this one goes, we as humans have royally messed ourselves in the latter part of this precession cycle, only exacerbating any gradual change that is already present due to the axial shift."

That is, are you saying we're too late to make a difference?

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#71 Drybone

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:16 PM

Try not to introduce logic and calm, this is an environmentalist chicken-with-head-cut-off topic. Daring to institute logic is like challenging a pastor in his own church.


Agreed.
Or an Atheist here.
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#72 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:20 PM

The discussion is about global warming and you said
"Well, considering the Earth is over 6 billion years old and it goes through the cycle of precession every 26,000 years, it doesn't take a math genius to figure out that this has taken place "many times throughout Earth's history""

Sounds like you're saying that "this" (global warming) has taken place many times throughout Earth's history.

So I don't misinterpret what you're saying, can you elaborate on your comment about "As far as this one goes, we as humans have royally messed ourselves in the latter part of this precession cycle, only exacerbating any gradual change that is already present due to the axial shift."

That is, are you saying we're too late to make a difference?


Ok, well continuing what you mentioned about industrial man, and then saying that industrial man was not around 26,000 years ago..(you're right) It would stand to reason that since the Industrial Revolution at the very least we have been digging our hole a little bit deeper and definitely are the main contributor to what's currently taking place (ice caps melting, temperatures on average rising etc)...and to be frank here, no..I don't think we're too late to make a difference...however if you ask if I think we're too late to make a SIGNIFICANT difference, I would say yes. Let's consider for a moment the irreparable damage we have done to the ozone layer...causing at the very least an advanced (not yet severe) Greenhouse Effect which is now being felt around most of the globe. I live in the US, and for the first time in 20 years here where I live anyway, this past winter...well....there really WAS no winter... But look at the bright side...at least we're not as far gone as Venus is.

Edited by Slaytanic Wehrmacht, 25 July 2012 - 02:21 PM.

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#73 Dittohead

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:21 PM

ice melts in the summer.

freezes in the winter.

love the scary music though nice touch. I must do something but I don't know what? Wait, I know! lets blame humans and tax more money for gasoline and energy they'll even pay $5 for a light bulb... lol ya that'll change it or stop it... delusional. I welcome the melt.... The opposite would be much worse as we'd have to go move South.

#74 MadMonk

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:28 PM

I agree, but we are acting now and have been for a few decades...but I agree, it's not enough...

The real issue is - how do you get everyone in the world to be on the same page?


I think as technology for renewable energy matures it will be stupid not to transition to it, and I don't think it is that far off anyway (just look at the rapid adoption of solar energy recently). I maybe optimistic, but maybe 2-3 decades away? I think eventually the wallet will make everyone be on the same page.

My frustration is that the transition can be so much faster if it weren't for a significant segment of the population who refuse to deal with the fact that it is happening, and that is really the single greatest hurdle right now.

#75 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:28 PM

Ok, well continuing what you mentioned about industrial man, and then saying that industrial man was not around 26,000 years ago..(you're right) It would stand to reason that since the Industrial Revolution at the very least we have been digging our hole a little bit deeper and definitely are the main contributor to what's currently taking place (ice caps melting, temperatures on average rising etc)...and to be frank here, no..I don't think we're too late to make a difference...however if you ask if I think we're too late to make a SIGNIFICANT difference, I would say yes. Let's consider for a moment the irreparable damage we have done to the ozone layer...causing at the very least an advanced (not yet severe) Greenhouse Effect which is now being felt around most of the globe. I live in the US, and for the first time in 20 years this past winter...well....there really WAS no winter... But look at the bright side...at least we're not as far gone as Venus is.


I can agree with that.

I have lived in the Calgary area since 1999 - and in a few weeks I'll be back in BC.
I can't stand the winter's here.
Bloody freezing and so much snow you'd think I was living on the top of a mountain.

Yes, I sometimes joke when people talk about global warming - I usually say something like "they obviously have never lived in Calgary".

Maybe, if more people would try to solve the problem instead of just protesting, maybe we could reverse the damage we have done. Example, maybe one day, some scientist or really smart person figures out a way to replenish the ozone layer...

Unless we become more like say a one world nation, I just don't see how we can get everyone to buy into saving our planet instead of just looking at costs and profit and greed.

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

 

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#76 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:32 PM

I can agree with that.

I have lived in the Calgary area since 1999 - and in a few weeks I'll be back in BC.
I can't stand the winter's here.
Bloody freezing and so much snow you'd think I was living on the top of a mountain.

Yes, I sometimes joke when people talk about global warming - I usually say something like "they obviously have never lived in Calgary".

Maybe, if more people would try to solve the problem instead of just protesting, maybe we could reverse the damage we have done. Example, maybe one day, some scientist or really smart person figures out a way to replenish the ozone layer...

Unless we become more like say a one world nation, I just don't see how we can get everyone to buy into saving our planet instead of just looking at costs and profit and greed.


As an aside to this...it's also pretty difficult to get people to buy into anything when nearly every nation in the world is broke to begin with. I daresay the term Global Recession may not be too far away.
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#77 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:33 PM

I think as technology for renewable energy matures it will be stupid not to transition to it, and I don't think it is that far off anyway (just look at the rapid adoption of solar energy recently). I maybe optimistic, but maybe 2-3 decades away? I think eventually the wallet will make everyone be on the same page.

My frustration is that the transition can be so much faster if it weren't for a significant segment of the population who refuse to deal with the fact that it is happening, and that is really the single greatest hurdle right now.


I agree - but as humans, yes, we're pretty stupid.

Look at all the things we do to our own bodies - smoking, drinking, drugs, chemicals (like bleach), etc...we can't even look after ourselves - how do we expect to look after a planetary ecosystem?

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#78 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:33 PM

I think as technology for renewable energy matures it will be stupid not to transition to it, and I don't think it is that far off anyway (just look at the rapid adoption of solar energy recently). I maybe optimistic, but maybe 2-3 decades away? I think eventually the wallet will make everyone be on the same page.

My frustration is that the transition can be so much faster if it weren't for a significant segment of the population who refuse to deal with the fact that it is happening, and that is really the single greatest hurdle right now.


If by significant segment you mean the portion that doesn't want to pay extra for everything in life than ya, it would certainly make a big difference. Unfortunately the poor world has no money to pay for upgrades and the rich world is doing it's best job to try to make itself over as the poor world so it's safe to say that the signficant segment isn't going to be in the mood to pay more for energy or even give a damn about global warming when they are say struggling to eat.

Just sayin'.

#79 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:35 PM

The article you've quoted describes the effect of ozone depletion on the atmospheric circulation over Antarctica. While recent research have mostly suggested that ozone depletion can in fact change atmospheric circulation, the effect on sea ice is less clear. There are some papers that contradicts the SAM-sea ice link. For example:



Thanks for updating my understanding with that last citation.

Reading further led me to this paper released in March 2012, which was a good read.

http://www.the-cryos...-2012-print.pdf


While the evidence is still inconclusive about the causes to the increasing SIE, there's no doubt that the ice on land in Anarctica is depleting at an accelerated pace. http://www.agu.org/p...9GL040222.shtml

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#80 Drybone

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:36 PM

Global warming is caused by cow flatulence
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#81 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:37 PM

I agree - but as humans, yes, we're pretty stupid.

Look at all the things we do to our own bodies - smoking, drinking, drugs, chemicals (like bleach), etc...we can't even look after ourselves - how do we expect to look after a planetary ecosystem?


Not to belabor this but the part about drugs is spot on...I don't know how many here actually know what "meth" consists of but there are ingredients you wouldn't want anywhere near your skin much less taking into your body.
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#82 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:40 PM

ice melts in the summer.

freezes in the winter.

love the scary music though nice touch. I must do something but I don't know what? Wait, I know! lets blame humans and tax more money for gasoline and energy they'll even pay $5 for a light bulb... lol ya that'll change it or stop it... delusional. I welcome the melt.... The opposite would be much worse as we'd have to go move South.


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The book examines the phenomenon of climate change denial. It looks at the many techniques of literal denial, where 'skeptics' deny the evidence for man-made global warming. It exposes denial within governments, who make a lot of noise about climate change but fail to back it up with action. And it examines the denial within most of us, when we let denial prosper. This book explains the climate science and the social science behind denial.



Buy it.....if you don't read it, that's alright, but at least your kid can have a chance and lifeline to not drown in ignorance in your end of the gene pool.


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#83 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:41 PM

Global warming is caused by cow flatulence


Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

- Abraham Lincoln

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#84 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:45 PM

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

- Abraham Lincoln


Meh. Close enough. Nice comeback btw. :towel:
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#85 Dittohead

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 02:51 PM

I'm not denying climate change.. I know it changes, that ice has melted before. I'm not worried. but again I don't know how many times I have to say this. If all the people who think Humans are the problem will kill themselves to lead the way to change then and only then will I think you are serious about your cause. Otherwise you're all just a bunch of hypocrites and polluting the Earth.

#86 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 03:03 PM

I'm not denying climate change.. I know it changes, that ice has melted before. I'm not worried. but again I don't know how many times I have to say this. If all the people who think Humans are the problem will kill themselves to lead the way to change then and only then will I think you are serious about your cause. Otherwise you're all just a bunch of hypocrites and polluting the Earth.


So you are actually saying that unless we all become martyrs for our cause that we're hypocritical and also polluting the Earth is that it...Well I have news for you...If I did choose to die for this cause...I'd be taking a hell of a lot of you with me. The overpopulation issue has beaten to death over and over again...in order to make a REAL difference, we'd have to systematically wipe out at least 35% of the Earth's current population maybe even closer to 40% and even then it'd only make a small dent in the problem. As far as what you said in the other post...ice does INDEED melt in the summer...that much is definitely true...but not glaciers, and not ice-caps, and especially not in such a small amount of time.
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#87 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 03:05 PM

I'm not denying climate change.. I know it changes, that ice has melted before. I'm not worried. but again I don't know how many times I have to say this. If all the people who think Humans are the problem will kill themselves to lead the way to change then and only then will I think you are serious about your cause. Otherwise you're all just a bunch of hypocrites and polluting the Earth.


You know climate changes and that ice melts eh? Well, am I ever thankful you're able to discern those particular truths from the fiction that must be playing on Fox News right now.

Again, it's NOT a question or a worry about IF the climate changes, or has changed previously.....THE ISSUE AND CONCERN is the speed at which it is changing in, from what can be seen and evidenced with data, in a very short span of time, which will then bring faster and more severe consequences than the relatively normal and relatively gradual changes that our planet's climate has experienced over the last millions of years.

And if we die, then you'll just make things worse a lot quicker. We're literally holding you back from making yourself and the rest of us prematurely extinct. We'd be better throwing you and your ilk off the cliffs individually since it's clear that you're the human evolutionary version of the dodo's. Now THAT would serve as a great service to 'the cause'.

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#88 Dittohead

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 03:31 PM

So you are actually saying that unless we all become martyrs for our cause that we're hypocritical and also polluting the Earth is that it...Well I have news for you...If I did choose to die for this cause...I'd be taking a hell of a lot of you with me. The overpopulation issue has beaten to death over and over again...in order to make a REAL difference, we'd have to systematically wipe out at least 35% of the Earth's current population maybe even closer to 40% and even then it'd only make a small dent in the problem. As far as what you said in the other post...ice does INDEED melt in the summer...that much is definitely true...but not glaciers, and not ice-caps, and especially not in such a small amount of time.


Yes, people who go on about how Humans are the problem blah blah blah just Die already....and Sometimes they might melt we only been looking at it for 100 years. agian I'm not concerned, less ice is better. it'll get cold again in a few months. this just surface ice which most of melts every year that sheet is miles thick... not losing sleep over it but go ahead don't use a plastic bag do your part.

#89 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 03:36 PM

Yes, people who go on about how Humans are the problem blah blah blah just Die already....and Sometimes they might melt we only been looking at it for 100 years. agian I'm not concerned, less ice is better. it'll get cold again in a few months. this just surface ice which most of melts every year that sheet is miles thick... not losing sleep over it but go ahead don't use a plastic bag do your part.


:lol:

You're a real pip DH.

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#90 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 03:37 PM

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

- Abraham Lincoln


Odd to go that far over the top when in fact methane gas releases from cows are in fact a significant contributor of greenhouse gases what with methane apparently being 20x as effective at keeping in the heat as CO2.

Also, a pure insult is certainly not on topic nor is it considered respectful. If you want to call out others for not following board rules consider leading by example.




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