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Unprecedented Greenland Ice Melt Stuns NASA Scientists


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#121 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:54 PM

Then go ahead and report that 'attack' if you're grasping at straws to get me banned again.

I wouldn't put it past your usual childish and petty behaviour.


Strike 2.

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#122 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:55 PM

"Strike 2" I'm assuming you don't realize how juvenile that sounds.
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#123 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:56 PM

*wonders how we ended up discussing base-a-ball* :huh:

"Sursumredditio" non usquam in hac mea loquantur!



Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....



#124 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:57 PM

Well ya exactly. It's a contributor but not the cause. It's A cause though.

So certainly not so far in left field to get a glib response. Lead by example if you want thoughtful conversation.



Try sticking to the topic at hand, if YOU want thoughtful conversation and worry less about my glib responses while doling out patronizing ones.

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#125 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:58 PM

idioms, my dear...idioms...;)
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#126 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:00 PM

Strike 2.



:rolleyes:

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#127 Kamero89

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:01 PM

Chill out...

Anyways.. Pretty crazy stuff, isn't going to make me drive a hybrid though, its just climate change and it'll go back to normal one day again, nothing to worry about.


lol I love your logic. 'Lets forget about it, and it will fix it self". The people who deny global warming are DEFIANTLY related to the people who thought the earth was flat.

#128 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:02 PM

Try sticking to the topic at hand, if YOU want thoughtful conversation and worry less about my glib responses while doling out patronizing ones.


Sure. Greenland is melting. What do you propose we do about that? Speculate on Greenland real estate?

#129 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:07 PM

Sure. Greenland is melting. What do you propose we do about that? Speculate on Greenland real estate?


Nope.

Being aware of the melting and climate trends in key places like Greenland for one is a good start though.

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#130 Kamero89

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:09 PM

Yep, now you make personal attacks - I guess you didn't learn from your previous ban - pity - for I quite like your constructive posts that you make on this forum....


You have made personal attacks too. Seriously it is like the pot calling the kettle black. EVERY time you are proven wrong you make subtle remarks and offend people, which causes them to retort. You lost the debate, and now you are searching for your own little victory. I feel really sorry for you.

#131 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:10 PM

Sure. Greenland is melting. What do you propose we do about that? Speculate on Greenland real estate?


I hope you're being purposefully obtuse with this post. The main discussion is global climate change and how it has caused Greenland to melt. This thread may be indirectly related to Greenland itself, but it is quite obviously a discussion on global climate change and more than anything a Public Service Announcement. It began as very constructive and informative and just because a few people posting here lack reading comprehension skills it has degenerated just like constructive threads always do into name calling and idiocy.
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#132 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:10 PM

lol I love your logic. 'Lets forget about it, and it will fix it self". The people who deny global warming are DEFIANTLY related to the people who thought the earth was flat.


Careful, at who you are insinuating and/or generalizing about.

"Historians of science David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers point out that "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference"."

And then this one:

"A curious example of this mistreatment of the past for the purpose of slandering Christians is a widespread historical error, an error that the Historical Society of Britain some years back listed as number one in its short compendium of the ten most common historical illusions. It is the notion that people used to believe that the earth was flat--especially medieval Christians.
It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat.

A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters--Leukippos and Demokritos for example--by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c. BC), followed by Crates(2 c. BC), Strabo (3 c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans.

Nor did this situation change with the advent of Christianity. A few--at least two and at most five--early Christian fathers denied the sphericity of earth by mistakenly taking passages such as Ps. 104:2-3 as geographical rather than metaphorical statements. On the other side tens of thousands of Christian theologians, poets, artists, and scientists took the spherical view throughout the early, medieval, and modern church. The point is that no educated person believed otherwise.

Historians of science have been proving this point for at least 70 years (most recently Edward Grant, David Lindberg, Daniel Woodward, and Robert S. Westman), without making notable headway against the error. Schoolchildren in the US, Europe, and Japan are for the most part being taught the same old nonsense. How and why did this nonsense emerge?

In my research, I looked to see how old the idea was that medieval Christians believed the earth was flat. I obviously did not find it among medieval Christians. Nor among anti-Catholic Protestant reformers. Nor in Copernicus or Galileo or their followers, who had to demonstrate the superiority of a heliocentric system, but not of a spherical earth. I was sure I would find it among the eighteenth-century philosophes, among all their vitriolic sneers at Christianity, but not a word. I am still amazed at where it first appears.

No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat."


From: http://www.veritas-u.../FlatEarth.html

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Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#133 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:13 PM

You have made personal attacks too. Seriously it is like the pot calling the kettle black. EVERY time you are proven wrong you make subtle remarks and offend people, which causes them to retort. You lost the debate, and now you are searching for your own little victory. I feel really sorry for you.


Huh? Are you sure you're following this thread?

Where did I make a personal attack?

Where was I proven wrong in this thread?

Offending people? Maybe - no one can please everyone.

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Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#134 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

It's a matter of prescience
No, not the science fiction kind
It's all about ignorance,
And greed, and miracles for the blind
The media parading, disjointed politics
Founded on petrochemical plunder
And we're it's hostages

If you stand to reason
You're in the game
The rules might be elusive
But our pieces are the same
And you know if one goes down we all go down as well
The balance is precarious as anyone can tell
This world's going to hell

Don't allow
This mythologic hopeful monster to exact it's price
Kyoto now!
We can't do nothing and I think someone else will make it right

You might not think it matters now
But what if you are wrong
You might not think there's any wisdom in a fracked up punk rock song
But the way it is
Cannot persist for long
A brutal sun is rising on a sick horizon

It's in the way
We live our lives
Exactly like the double-edge of a cold familiar knife
And supremacy weighs heavy on the day
It's never really what you own but what you threw away
And how much did you pay?

In your dreams
You saw a steady state a bounty for eternity
Silent screams
But now the wisdom that sustains us is in full retreat
Don't allow
This mythologic hopeful monster isn't worth the risk
Kyoto now!
We can't have vision for the future if it can't be fixed
Alien
We need a fresh and new religion to run our lives
Hand in hand
The arid torpor of inaction will be our demise

Greg Raffin.

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#135 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:15 PM

Yeah that's why the Catholic church persecuted great scientific minds like Galileo for suggesting among other things that the Earth was not the center of the universe, that the Earth did not rotate on an axis, and why the Catholic church also persecuted people for stating that the Earth was round because the Church had decided arrogantly that it was flat. First off, why is there even a mention of any church in an environmental science thread where it doesn't belong, and second, who gives a crap what the church thinks or thought on the subject in the first place?
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#136 taxi

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:20 PM

So is anyone actually going to listen to the scientists involved?

http://www.thespec.c...lting-literally

While scientists described it as an “extreme event” not previously recorded from space, they hastened to add that it was normal in a broader historical context.
Ice core samples taken from the summit of Greenland’s ice sheet that shed light on 10,000 years of its history show that a similar large-scale melting event has happened roughly every 150 years, said Lora Koenig, a glaciologist with NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center who has also studied the satellite imagery. Because the previous vast melt occurred in 1889, this year’s is more or less on schedule, she said.
During the event, the surface ice on the sheet’s summit was always within a degree Celsius (1.8 degrees Fahrenheit) or so of refreezing, Koenig added. Around July 14, the ice loss began to reverse, she said.
Nonetheless, the scientists said, the melt was significant because Greenland’s ice sheet is unequivocally shrinking as a result of the warming of the world’s oceans, and the event could help broaden their insights into climate change and earth systems.
“Even though this one event might be part of normal variation, it’s still a fantastic experiment for us so we can try to understand how the ice sheets are going to change,” Thomas P. Wagner, head of NASA’s cryosphere program, said in an interview.



#137 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:21 PM

Blah, blah, blah....massive wall of irrelevant text


This isn't the God thread, this isn't even a religious thread - there were a hell of a lot more people on the earth than just Christians who at one time believed the world was flat so why reference a paper to do with Christians beliefs only? Are the others who thought so just...........irrelevant? :picard:

Can we get back to melting ice in Greenland, please? Honestly, can we have ONE thread that someone doesn't derail into the God thread version 79845928357033.4?


:frantic:



So is anyone actually going to listen to the scientists involved?

http://www.thespec.c...lting-literally



While scientists described it as an “extreme event” not previously recorded from space, they hastened to add that it was normal in a broader historical context.
Ice core samples taken from the summit of Greenland’s ice sheet that shed light on 10,000 years of its history show that a similar large-scale melting event has happened roughly every 150 years, said Lora Koenig, a glaciologist with NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center who has also studied the satellite imagery. Because the previous vast melt occurred in 1889, this year’s is more or less on schedule, she said.
During the event, the surface ice on the sheet’s summit was always within a degree Celsius (1.8 degrees Fahrenheit) or so of refreezing, Koenig added. Around July 14, the ice loss began to reverse, she said.
Nonetheless, the scientists said, the melt was significant because Greenland’s ice sheet is unequivocally shrinking as a result of the warming of the world’s oceans, and the event could help broaden their insights into climate change and earth systems.
“Even though this one event might be part of normal variation, it’s still a fantastic experiment for us so we can try to understand how the ice sheets are going to change,” Thomas P. Wagner, head of NASA’s cryosphere program, said in an interview.


Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 25 July 2012 - 05:28 PM.

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Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....



#138 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:25 PM

With zealots involved that's highly doubtful BB. Sad, really. And of course they're irrelevant....anyone who doesn't share their same skewed worldview is irrelevant. :towel:

Edited by Slaytanic Wehrmacht, 25 July 2012 - 05:30 PM.

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#139 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:28 PM

Careful, at who you are insinuating and/or generalizing about.

"Historians of science David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers point out that "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference"."

And then this one:

"A curious example of this mistreatment of the past for the purpose of slandering Christians is a widespread historical error, an error that the Historical Society of Britain some years back listed as number one in its short compendium of the ten most common historical illusions. It is the notion that people used to believe that the earth was flat--especially medieval Christians.
It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat.
A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters--Leukippos and Demokritos for example--by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c. BC), followed by Crates(2 c. BC), Strabo (3 c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans.
Nor did this situation change with the advent of Christianity. A few--at least two and at most five--early Christian fathers denied the sphericity of earth by mistakenly taking passages such as Ps. 104:2-3 as geographical rather than metaphorical statements. On the other side tens of thousands of Christian theologians, poets, artists, and scientists took the spherical view throughout the early, medieval, and modern church. The point is that no educated person believed otherwise.
Historians of science have been proving this point for at least 70 years (most recently Edward Grant, David Lindberg, Daniel Woodward, and Robert S. Westman), without making notable headway against the error. Schoolchildren in the US, Europe, and Japan are for the most part being taught the same old nonsense. How and why did this nonsense emerge?
In my research, I looked to see how old the idea was that medieval Christians believed the earth was flat. I obviously did not find it among medieval Christians. Nor among anti-Catholic Protestant reformers. Nor in Copernicus or Galileo or their followers, who had to demonstrate the superiority of a heliocentric system, but not of a spherical earth. I was sure I would find it among the eighteenth-century philosophes, among all their vitriolic sneers at Christianity, but not a word. I am still amazed at where it first appears.
No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat."

From: http://www.veritas-u.../FlatEarth.html



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#140 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:32 PM

Yeah that's why the Catholic church persecuted great scientific minds like Galileo for suggesting among other things that the Earth was not the center of the universe, that the Earth did not rotate on an axis, and why the Catholic church also persecuted people for stating that the Earth was round because the Church had decided arrogantly that it was flat. First off, why is there even a mention of any church in an environmental science thread where it doesn't belong, and second, who gives a crap what the church thinks or thought on the subject in the first place?


Source please.

"

Flat-earth belief is a myth perpetuated to support the claim that Christians have widely resisted scientific advancement due to doctrinal constraints."



"

The only two Christian writers known to have advocated a flat earth were a 4

th

-century heretic, Lactantius, and an obscure 6

th

-century Egyptian Monk, Cosmas Indicopleustes"



"

The myth that the Church ‘condemned as heretics all who claimed that the earth was round’ was ‘invented by two fabulists working separately: Antoine-Jean Letronne, an anticlerical 19

th

-century Frenchman, and Washington Irving."



"

In fact, those who opposed Columbus not only knew the earth was a sphere, but also had a good idea of how large it was—and

this

was the major reason why they opposed Columbus. Columbus and his men were not afraid of falling off the earth as Irving claimed, but of travelling so far from land in an unknown part of the world. They did not know the American continent existed, and, for this reason, Columbus’ critics correctly believed that a voyage to the Far East would take far too long and cost way too much. Unfortunately, Irving used many facts from reputable references to make his fictional account appear well supported, and, as a result, ‘the public was fooled into taking his literary game as history.’

<a href="http://creation.com/...onism#endRef36" style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(106, 158, 191); ">36

A careful reading of Irving makes it clear that his ‘history’ was deliberately designed to make Christianity appear prejudiced, dogmatic and ignorant, and to make scientists appear as objective persons who were carefully weighing the facts and who, in the end, were correct. As Morrison correctly concluded, Irving’s account is ‘mischievous nonsense … . The sphericity of the globe was not in question. The issue was the width of the ocean,’ and on this question Columbus’ opposition was correct."


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Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#141 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:33 PM

So is anyone actually going to listen to the scientists involved?

http://www.thespec.c...lting-literally


I posted a clip with a NASA scientist who was also cautioning that it's hard to tell exactly yet what the main cause of this 'extreme event' was.

Anyways, it is an 'extreme event', and now we wait to see if it is an isolated one, or one that's tied to other indicators of climate change.

Thanks for your post.

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#142 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:35 PM

I posted a clip with a NASA scientist who was also cautioning that it's hard to tell exactly yet what the main cause of this 'extreme event' was.

Anyways, it is an 'extreme event', and now we wait to see if it is an isolated one, or one that's tied to other indicators of climate change.

Thanks for your post.


Agreed.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 25 July 2012 - 05:38 PM.

"Sursumredditio" non usquam in hac mea loquantur!



Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....



#143 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:36 PM

Source please.

"

Flat-earth belief is a myth perpetuated to support the claim that Christians have widely resisted scientific advancement due to doctrinal constraints."



"

The only two Christian writers known to have advocated a flat earth were a 4

th

-century heretic, Lactantius, and an obscure 6

th

-century Egyptian Monk, Cosmas Indicopleustes"



"

The myth that the Church ‘condemned as heretics all who claimed that the earth was round’ was ‘invented by two fabulists working separately: Antoine-Jean Letronne, an anticlerical 19

th

-century Frenchman, and Washington Irving."



"

In fact, those who opposed Columbus not only knew the earth was a sphere, but also had a good idea of how large it was—and

this

was the major reason why they opposed Columbus. Columbus and his men were not afraid of falling off the earth as Irving claimed, but of travelling so far from land in an unknown part of the world. They did not know the American continent existed, and, for this reason, Columbus’ critics correctly believed that a voyage to the Far East would take far too long and cost way too much. Unfortunately, Irving used many facts from reputable references to make his fictional account appear well supported, and, as a result, ‘the public was fooled into taking his literary game as history.’

<a href="http://creation.com/...onism#endRef36" style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(106, 158, 191); ">36

A careful reading of Irving makes it clear that his ‘history’ was deliberately designed to make Christianity appear prejudiced, dogmatic and ignorant, and to make scientists appear as objective persons who were carefully weighing the facts and who, in the end, were correct. As Morrison correctly concluded, Irving’s account is ‘mischievous nonsense … . The sphericity of the globe was not in question. The issue was the width of the ocean,’ and on this question Columbus’ opposition was correct."



And because you quote from a biased source like "creation.com" I'm supposed to view this as anything other than sanctimonious horses**t? If the Catholics didn't persecute Galileo, why the hell would they publicly apologize for it 400 years later? Your "source" is unreliable and highly biased.
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#144 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:36 PM

Source please.

"

Flat-earth belief is a myth perpetuated to support the claim that Christians have widely resisted scientific advancement due to doctrinal constraints."



"

The only two Christian writers known to have advocated a flat earth were a 4

th

-century heretic, Lactantius, and an obscure 6

th

-century Egyptian Monk, Cosmas Indicopleustes"



"

The myth that the Church ‘condemned as heretics all who claimed that the earth was round’ was ‘invented by two fabulists working separately: Antoine-Jean Letronne, an anticlerical 19

th

-century Frenchman, and Washington Irving."



"

In fact, those who opposed Columbus not only knew the earth was a sphere, but also had a good idea of how large it was—and

this

was the major reason why they opposed Columbus. Columbus and his men were not afraid of falling off the earth as Irving claimed, but of travelling so far from land in an unknown part of the world. They did not know the American continent existed, and, for this reason, Columbus’ critics correctly believed that a voyage to the Far East would take far too long and cost way too much. Unfortunately, Irving used many facts from reputable references to make his fictional account appear well supported, and, as a result, ‘the public was fooled into taking his literary game as history.’

<a href="http://creation.com/...onism#endRef36" style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(106, 158, 191); ">36

A careful reading of Irving makes it clear that his ‘history’ was deliberately designed to make Christianity appear prejudiced, dogmatic and ignorant, and to make scientists appear as objective persons who were carefully weighing the facts and who, in the end, were correct. As Morrison correctly concluded, Irving’s account is ‘mischievous nonsense … . The sphericity of the globe was not in question. The issue was the width of the ocean,’ and on this question Columbus’ opposition was correct."



Shove it. I'm not falling into this trap.
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#145 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:38 PM

This isn't the God thread, this isn't even a religious thread - there were a hell of a lot more people on the earth than just Christians who at one time believed the world was flat so why reference a paper to do with Christians beliefs only? Are the others who thought so just...........irrelevant? :picard:

Can we get back to melting ice in Greenland, please? Honestly, can we have ONE thread that someone doesn't derail into the God thread version 79845928357033.4?


:frantic:


That's what I'm asking the poster - who is he referring to?

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#146 Special Ed

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:40 PM

Wow the competition for stupidest posts in this thread is heating up faster than Greenland.


Yeah because your posts are full of substance and not stupid at all.

:sarcasm:

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#147 Heretic

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:40 PM

And because you quote from a biased source like "creation.com" I'm supposed to view this as anything other than sanctimonious horses**t? If the Catholics didn't persecute Galileo, why the hell would they publicly apologize for it 400 years later? Your "source" is unreliable and highly biased.


My first one wasn't:

http://www.veritas-u.../FlatEarth.html

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#148 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:41 PM

That's what I'm asking the poster - who is he referring to?


Lord t'underin' Jaysus, Heretic, the comment was an aside, used as a descriptor, it was not an invitation to dance off on a tangent about Christians and who believed/did not believe the world was flat in some forgotten bygone age. Let it go, man.

This is beyond silliness.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 25 July 2012 - 05:44 PM.

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Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....



#149 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:43 PM

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#150 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:44 PM

I'm finished with this pointless, circular BS. Was a great thread Sharpie...too bad it got the usual treatment.
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