Vault Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Man, I hate to say it, but I think Mark Messier has actually successfully trolled Vancouver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmaster Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 By "many of us" I assume you mean fanatic Canuck fans. The rest of the league thought enough of his leadership to name a leadership trophy after him. But what does the rest of the league know, right?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gouda Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 thats Messyface for ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 So what do they call this leadership award? I'd tell you, but I'd have to ban myself in the process for language and abusive behavior. Say what you will, but this is where it all changed for me and any respect I may have had for Messier (yes, I was in awe of the Oilers back in the day like most people) disappeared at this point. There's a level of respect out on the ice (or at least there should be), especially between "leaders". Is this how he leads? This was a disgusting POS move and any leader should be ashamed of this display of cowardice. Fanatic Canuck fans aren't blinded by name plates on trophies...some of us look beyond that to the ego, the pathetic display of hitting an injured player who's down, etc. to determine that this guy's a big ass. So, before you cloud this issue any further - what are your thoughts on this clip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift-4 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Funny thing is Deb................that is what irked me the most about his visit to Vancouver. He never played like that anymore. It was like he was going for some candy ass award when he wore the Canucks sweater. Really pissed me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmaster Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Funny thing is Deb................that is what irked me the most about his visit to Vancouver. He never played like that anymore. It was like he was going for some candy ass award when he wore the Canucks sweater. Really pissed me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucksBruins Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Funny thing is Deb................that is what irked me the most about his visit to Vancouver. He never played like that anymore. It was like he was going for some candy ass award when he wore the Canucks sweater. Really pissed me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thema Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 So what do they call this leadership award? I'd tell you, but I'd have to ban myself in the process for language and abusive behavior. Say what you will, but this is where it all changed for me and any respect I may have had for Messier (yes, I was in awe of the Oilers back in the day like most people) disappeared at this point. There's a level of respect out on the ice (or at least there should be), especially between "leaders". Is this how he leads? This was a disgusting POS move and any leader should be ashamed of this display of cowardice. Fanatic Canuck fans aren't blinded by name plates on trophies...some of us look beyond that to the ego, the pathetic display of hitting an injured player who's down, etc. to determine that this guy's a big ass. So, before you cloud this issue any further - what are your thoughts on this clip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I searched in vain for a clip of Messier breaking his stick over the head of Gradin .. no penalty called .. would be a 20 game suspension now, but he played for Wayney's team so could do no wrong .. since that day I have always treated Messier as the turd his was, and is .. for Gods sake folks, I was forced to cheer for the Maple Leafs for three years .. Guy that worked for me back then is a cousin of Craig Berube, one of Messiers "buddies", so whenever Berube played in Van, this guy partied with them, and Messier partied hard every night whether they were playing the next day or not .. look up "classless turd" in any reputable Pictionary and Messier is there grabbing Wee Arnold 's "wee" black bum .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Actually, I don't have to rely on Jim Robson because I recall it quite vividly. No, I did not root for Messier as a Canuck - couldn't stand him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Actually, I don't have to rely on Jim Robson because I recall it quite vividly. No, I did not root for Messier as a Canuck - couldn't stand him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fagin Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 OK, let's look at ALL the numbers in relation...Messier played 31 games MORE than that "third player" with 45 points. And likely made double the salary. Soooo... Also, how about comparing him to the rest of the league? He was 40th in points overall - so why not include that number! YET, his salary the fourth highest. So don't compare him to Canucks - he was SUPPOSED to be the best Canuck and was brought in TO improve things - that was the expectation. So let's keep the focus on him, shall we? And, to keep it in perspective, compare him to other leaders in the league who made the $$ he was. Living up to expectations? Hardly. And, as a high paid "leader" brought into a struggling team to supposedly breathe new life in - he failed, miserably. Leaders don't rely on the tools around them, they help others to raise their levels and are counted on to BE the tool that's supposed to fix things. Leaders play for the heart and soul dedication to and love of the game, NOT the pay cheque associated with it. Messier will always be a bust in relation to Vancouver - and it's not the fans' fault, it's his. Management brought him in to BE the help. That is my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 OK, let's look at ALL the numbers in relation...Messier played 31 games MORE than that "third player" with 45 points. And likely made double the salary. Soooo... Also, how about comparing him to the rest of the league? He was 40th in points overall - so why not include that number! YET, his salary the fourth highest. So don't compare him to Canucks - he was SUPPOSED to be the best Canuck and was brought in TO improve things - that was the expectation. So let's keep the focus on him, shall we? And, to keep it in perspective, compare him to other leaders in the league who made the $$ he was. Living up to expectations? Hardly. And, as a high paid "leader" brought into a struggling team to supposedly breathe new life in - he failed, miserably. Leaders don't rely on the tools around them, they help others to raise their levels and are counted on to BE the tool that's supposed to fix things. Leaders play for the heart and soul dedication to and love of the game, NOT the pay cheque associated with it. Messier will always be a bust in relation to Vancouver - and it's not the fans' fault, it's his. Management brought him in to BE the help. That is my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 "Leaders don't rely on the tools around them, they help others to raise their levels and are counted on to BE the tool that's supposed to fix things." I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry at this. (It's like one of these "gung ho" group management mantras that evaporates as soon as it gets into the real world) As a person who led many "teams" in my profession I can tell you this. I got rid of those who could not be developed and I replaced them with people who had talent and responded to leadership. Neither of these things were in Messiers dominion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 So what do they call this leadership award? I'd tell you, but I'd have to ban myself in the process for language and abusive behavior. Say what you will, but this is where it all changed for me and any respect I may have had for Messier (yes, I was in awe of the Oilers back in the day like most people) disappeared at this point. There's a level of respect out on the ice (or at least there should be), especially between "leaders". Is this how he leads? This was a disgusting POS move and any leader should be ashamed of this display of cowardice. Fanatic Canuck fans aren't blinded by name plates on trophies...some of us look beyond that to the ego, the pathetic display of hitting an injured player who's down, etc. to determine that this guy's a big ass. So, before you cloud this issue any further - what are your thoughts on this clip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Are we talking double standards here.Or is there another excuse for one of todays so called leaders i.e.Ryan Kesler. We're talking Mark Messier. And Messier, 15 years ago, was being paid more than Kes is today in this market. AND brought in as a veteran leader with cups under his belt to help get things headed in a new direction. This was never the role with Kes, who's been here from the start, as a player developed here. He's developed into a great player as far as I'm concerned, so no issues there that I see. Apples and oranges. Says the lady who thought Raffi Torres could do no wrong. Raffi didn't make a boatload of $$ and act like he was the second coming. Raffi played with heart on his sleeve intensity and passion. Messier played like he was busy picking lint off his sleeve and couldn't have cared less. Raffi is a workhorse/beast and I'd rather have him than Messier any day. Honestly Deb, I get it, you don't like him.........you loathe him. Fair enough, I never said he was a nice OR a likeable guy. However it might be good if you faced reality and accepted he was a veteran, (apparently) injury prone star who was brought into a piss poor team, given little to no help, from a piss poor organisation and expected to perform miracles. Aw, poor $6M man. No one helped him but he should have been the helper, not the helpee. And it wasn't a piss poor team - we had some quality players who did not respond to or under the direction of Messier/Keenan. That reflects back to them, as leaders brought in to change things. But I don't know that you were on board then, so you likely are just referring to Wikipedia, etc. - but that doesn't tell the whole story of what a negative impact they actually had here. Surprise surprise it didn't work out...........as I say this is the real world not Disneyland. Which is our point here - the guy's still collecting money on something that "didn't work out"....AND he showed little regard for any of the players who had been in place here - some of whom were fan favourites. So don't blame the fanbase who don't cheer him in the process. You, actually, are helping make our point. We don't like him because he did nothing here - you can blame everything/one around him, but I say he had a hand in that. Because he floated around like a hard boiled egg in a pot of boiling water. Honestly, I've been a fan of this team for (insert a whole bunch of years that tell how old I am here) and this was the worst feeling I had during that tenure. Again - I didn't "loathe" MM until the SCF where he hit an injured player - one of quality and character - when he was down. Then he came here and acted like he WAS the team but performed like he didn't care. But done making my point - I experienced the Messier deal and I'm not sure if you did or not....will you answer that? Were you a fan back then, because it matters in understanding the whole deal? And I missed your other comment, so will respond (after coffee) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLluvitorleaveit Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 The Coleman family should sue!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 We're talking Mark Messier. And Messier, 15 years ago, was being paid more than Kes is today in this market. AND brought in as a veteran leader with cups under his belt to help get things headed in a new direction. This was never the role with Kes, who's been here from the start, as a player developed here. He's developed into a great player as far as I'm concerned, so no issues there that I see. Apples and oranges. He did help to turn things. I have just proved it to you. Raffi didn't make a boatload of $$ and act like he was the second coming. Raffi played with heart on his sleeve intensity and passion. Messier played like he was busy picking lint off his sleeve and couldn't have cared less. Raffi is a workhorse/beast and I'd rather have him than Messier any day. I don't know if you miss the point intentionally, so let me clarify. Raffi Torres who you think is great is probably recognised as one of the dirtiest blindside hitters in the league. Aw, poor $6M man. No one helped him but he should have been the helper, not the helpee. And it wasn't a piss poor team - we had some quality players who did not respond to or under the direction of Messier/Keenan. That reflects back to them, as leaders brought in to change things. But I don't know that you were on board then, so you likely are just referring to Wikipedia, etc. - but that doesn't tell the whole story of what a negative impact they actually had here. So again to clarify you think a player who won 6 SC's with teams 10x better than that Canuck squad, the last being 4 years earlier which puts him at 37 when he arrived at the Canucks should be able to carry a piss poor team to the playoffs. You ignore my analogy using Daniel Sedin and you ignore my example of how even a much more talented squad than the Canucks, ie New York Rangers could only come 11th in the Eastern Conference. Basically you ignore any logical debate, preferring instead to embellish your hatred of the guy by loading him with unrealistic and unfair expectations based on the Canucks failure to negotiate a better contract and their inability to give him any decent support. I take it then that you are not in favour of giving this team any further additions (counter to the whole of CDC it would seem) because great players like the Sedins shouldn't need any help. Which is our point here - the guy's still collecting money on something that "didn't work out"....AND he showed little regard for any of the players who had been in place here - some of whom were fan favourites. So don't blame the fanbase who don't cheer him in the process. You, actually, are helping make our point. We don't like him because he did nothing here - you can blame everything/one around him, but I say he had a hand in that. Because he floated around like a hard boiled egg in a pot of boiling water. Honestly, I've been a fan of this team for (insert a whole bunch of years that tell how old I am here) and this was the worst feeling I had during that tenure. Again - I didn't "loathe" MM until the SCF where he hit an injured player - one of quality and character - when he was down. Then he came here and acted like he WAS the team but performed like he didn't care. But done making my point - I experienced the Messier deal and I'm not sure if you did or not....will you answer that? Were you a fan back then, because it matters in understanding the whole deal? Is he the first person ever to make money on something that didn't work out? Come on, it takes two to tango. You have refused to acknowledge any culpability in this by the team OR the organisation. despite what others above have pointed out. Deb you haven't made a point other than you dislike him, nor have you answered most of my points and yet you ask me to answer. I don't play that game, so I will answer you. I wasn't a fan back then. (I wonder how many who chip in with the hate here were and if they would answer honestly anyway. Many won't even give their age) However I was the same person then as I am now. By that I mean I believe there are always 2 sides to any situation. Fans never see the whole picture (example Hodgson and Luongo) and yet can be swayed by negative propaganda, usually peddled by the media. I have seen it illustrated many times on here with Raymond Ballard, Kesler, Bieksa, Luongo even Burrows. I am dealing or trying to deal in hard facts not preconceptions, feelings or other intangibles. Lastly you keep mentioning Keenan, as if that was Messiers mistake. If it was a mistake, it belongs, like most of this fiasco not with the player but with the management. What organisation signs a coach because a player asks/demands it? Did they already have a coach in mind or could they have actually wanted a coach who had reached the finals 4 times and won the SC once? ( 3 more times and one more SC than AV, by the way) Again it seems that bad things happened to good players / coaches when they arrived here in 1997-8 Funny how that happens. Maybe Bure could also see how poor the whole organisation was and legged it. I will say no more on this as it is played out. I have seen how people with loathings / hatreds on here never accept counter arguments. I will leave it for others of a more open mind to examine the facts and decide on whether Messier is getting a fair deal. As for the claim.........it was an outside arbiter who decided in his favour so it must have had credence. If the organisation don't like it they should appeal. I'm sure a whip round on here would cover the costs of any appeal. I'm in a good mood with Andy Murray winning a gold medal after thrashing Roger Federer at the Olympics. And I missed your other comment, so will respond (after coffee) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thema Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Actually, I don't have to rely on Jim Robson because I recall it quite vividly. No, I did not root for Messier as a Canuck - couldn't stand him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayman Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 ugh this makes me больной to my живот Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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