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[Article] Messier Awarded 6 Million From Grievance Case


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#211 AppleJack

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:57 AM

wow I wish someone would give me 6 million for doing NOTHING!

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Thanks TS <3

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#212 D-Money

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:07 AM

Same old CDC. I can't believe this crap.............like kids in the playground wanting to get even for stuff that just happens.
For a start I bet most of you and nearly all of the fan base were wetting themselves at the thought of the guy starting in Vancouver........typical.
Suddenly now a guy who was a stellar performer in New York becomes "What really bugs me is how team management at the time completely bent over to sign this old fart to millions"

Are you listening to yourselves?

He was too good for the Cannucks at the time..............plain and simple...


The only way a supposed Canuck fan could state that is if they are:

1) Completely delusional, or

2) Too young to have experienced Messier's tenure in Vancouver


It wasn't just that he took a big step back in his play, or that he didn't care (because believe me, both of those were completely apparent). He pretty much destroyed whatever we had going before he got there, and took zero responsibility for any of it.
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#213 D-Money

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:20 AM

175 points in 207 games in a team that was gash.


1997-8 Second top points scorer to Bure with 60 pts in 82 games. The third player had 45 and the fourth player 34!!!

1998-9 Second again behind Naslund. He had 48 pts in 59 games which would have put him on course to be one point behind Naslund who had 66 pts in 80 games. Mogilny and Muckalt had 45/59 and 36/73 respectively.

1999-0 Third behind Cassels and Naslund. He had 54 pts in 66 games which would have translated to top scorer with 67, 2 ahead of Naslund and 1 ahead of Cassels. Bertuzzi had 50 in 80 games and the 5th player, Mogilny had 38!! (from 47 games)

This doesn't look like a player who wasn't trying to me. And if he wasn't trying then I hate to think what the rest of the team was doing. Have a look at our roster over these years ..............basically it sucks.

I repeat I think Messier was a fool to come to Vancouver. One look at the roster should have warned him off.


When the coach thinks you're god-incarnate, continually gives you first-line and PP time despite dogging it, and has been trading anyone who plays better than you - then yeah, you're still going to score some points.

Look at Yashin. Dude led the Islanders in points every year he didn't miss time to injury. And yet, they paid him millions to get the hell out of there. So obviously there is more to being important to the team than just scoring points.
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#214 D-Money

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:42 AM

Deb I'm not surprised there was a dark cloud ............The Messiah himself ........in his heyday would have had a hard time breathing life into that roster........go back and look at it............it's a shocker.


Again, you have no idea.

We had the absolute BEST winger in the entire league. The first year of Mess, Bure had one of his few injury-free seasons.

We had another guy in Mogilny who was usually good for 30-40 goals.

We had an early-30's Lumme, who had been one of the best offensive defensemen that has ever played for our team.

We had Linden for most of the year (after he was traded we had McCabe and Bertuzzi).

We had pre-injury Ohlund looking like a future Norris winner.

We had speedy 2-way defender Hedican in his prime.

We had a young Naslund, who was just starting to break out.

We had one of the most feared enforcers in the league in Brashear...


Don't get me wrong - we may not have been a legitimate Cup contender. However, we still had an above-average team on paper. With half-decent leadership and coaching, that team absolutely should have made the playoffs, and even done some damage.

Again, you must have been too young to really know anything about that era.
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#215 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:18 AM

Mehssier is and always was a prick. The shot on Linden in the 94 scf in the dying seconds ruined any chance of me respecting him.

Not that my opinion matters...But if it did...

I'm just curious as to whether everyone here who "lost respect" for Messier after the Linden hit, (or any other for that matter) also lost respect for Matthias Ohlund for breaking Mikko Koivu's leg with a baseball swing of his stick...or Alex Burrows for biting and pulling hair?
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#216 riffraff

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:07 AM

Again, you have no idea.

We had the absolute BEST winger in the entire league. The first year of Mess, Bure had one of his few injury-free seasons.

We had another guy in Mogilny who was usually good for 30-40 goals.

We had an early-30's Lumme, who had been one of the best offensive defensemen that has ever played for our team.

We had Linden for most of the year (after he was traded we had McCabe and Bertuzzi).

We had pre-injury Ohlund looking like a future Norris winner.

We had speedy 2-way defender Hedican in his prime.

We had a young Naslund, who was just starting to break out.

We had one of the most feared enforcers in the league in Brashear...


Don't get me wrong - we may not have been a legitimate Cup contender. However, we still had an above-average team on paper. With half-decent leadership and coaching, that team absolutely should have made the playoffs, and even done some damage.

Again, you must have been too young to really know anything about that era.


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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#217 nuckin_futz

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 09:00 AM

Leaders work with the players in their club. Not play politics and destroy the team. Messier did not provide leadership he's supposed to be so good with. He was just getting a paycheck. The only reason his point totals were so high is because Keenan used Messier as much as possible. He got first line minutes, first power play minutes and penalty kill minutes. All this ice time and he was in cruise control the whole time.


The guy didn't play 1 playoff game the last seven years of his career.

#218 CHIPS

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 09:31 AM

Messy is an @sshat, period. But a contract is a contract, so let's play fair.

Messier's weak point totals aside, him and Mike Keenan totally destroyed the WHOLE TEAM from the inside. That's what pissed me off about him the most. I would be less pissed if he played even worst but wasn't such a locker room cancer.

We lost like everyone in our top 6 within 3 years. We lost our beloved GM. For those youngsters that didn't live though that era, you have no idea how bad it was.

http://en.wikipedia....ncouver_Canucks

Heading into the 1997–98 season, Linden resigned his captaincy for Messier, who had developed a strong reputation as a leader, having captained the Rangers over the Canucks in 1994 (he also captained the Oilers to a Stanley Cup in 1990). Linden later recalled regretting the decision, feeling that Messier generated hostility and tension in the dressing room.[51]

As the team's performance continued to worsen, starting the 1997–98 season with three wins in the first sixteen games, Quinn was fired as general manager after ten years with the team.[50] Soon thereafter, Renney was fired and replaced as coach by Mike Keenan, reuniting him with Messier, another central figure from the Rangers' 1994 team. Keenan's hiring reportedly exacerbated tensions between groups of Canucks players and his negative relationship with Linden was given ample media attention.[53][54] Two months into his tenure with the team, his role was expanded and he was made de-facto general manager. With control of player personnel, Keenan overhauled the roster, making 10 trades within two months, most notably dealing Linden to the New York Islanders.[55] Although the trade was unpopular with fans, the Canucks received winger Todd Bertuzzi in return, who would later become an integral part of the team's return to success in the next decade. Defenceman Bryan McCabe was also part of the deal, who would eventually be involved in a key transaction in the 1999 NHL Entry Draft. After the Canucks finished the 1997–98 season last in the Western Conference,[56] former NHL vice president Brian Burke was named general manager in the summer.[57]

Suffering their worst season since 1977–78 the subsequent year,[13] Keenan was fired midway through and replaced with Marc Crawford (who had won the Stanley Cup with the Colorado Avalanche in 1996).[55] Meanwhile, Pavel Bure, unhappy in Vancouver, had withheld himself from the team and requested a trade at the beginning of the campaign. By January 1999, he was dealt to the Florida Panthers in a seven-player trade, which saw eventual five-time All-Star Ed Jovanovski heading west. The trade also involved two draft picks. Finishing last in the Western Conference for a second straight year,[58] Vancouver possessed the fourth overall pick in the 1999 NHL Entry Draft. Set on drafting highly-touted Swedish forwards Daniel andHenrik Sedin, Burke orchestrated several transactions to move up to the second and third overall picks, with which he chose both players.[59]

The Canucks began to show improvement in the 1999–2000 season, finishing four points out of a playoff spot.[60] During the campaign, Mogilny was traded to the New Jersey Devils for forwards Denis Pederson and Brendan Morrison. With Bure gone and Messier in the last year of his contract, several previously under-achieving players began developing into key contributors for the team, most notably Naslund and Bertuzzi. In the off-season, Messier left the team and returned to the Rangers; during the team's September 2000 training camp, held in Sweden, Naslund was selected to replace Messier as captain, a position he held for eight years, tying Smyl's record.[19]


Edited by CHIPS, 07 August 2012 - 10:02 AM.

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#219 Tearloch7

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 09:41 AM

I'm just curious as to whether everyone here who "lost respect" for Messier after the Linden hit, (or any other for that matter) also lost respect for Matthias Ohlund for breaking Mikko Koivu's leg with a baseball swing of his stick...or Alex Burrows for biting and pulling hair?


Mathias reaction to an elbow to his injured face was to slash Koivu .. not everyone turtles when hit, like Hossa and a few other pussies .. Mathias reacted to Doana elbowing him in the face by chasing Doana around the ice, afore Doana hid behind the officials and plead for mercy .. if you ever practiced any athletics at a high level, you would know that often we react immediately to "cheap shot", especially if it threatens an area we are "sensitive" about .. i.e. a fractured orbital bone etc ..

Back in my martial arts days, I one punched a workmate on reflex alone .. one of those guys who liked to punch you in the shoulder from your blind side .. totally reactionary ..

I was hoping for a compound fracture for Koivu .. alas, a slight cracked bone ..

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#220 debluvscanucks

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:33 AM

I'm just curious as to whether everyone here who "lost respect" for Messier after the Linden hit, (or any other for that matter) also lost respect for Matthias Ohlund for breaking Mikko Koivu's leg with a baseball swing of his stick...or Alex Burrows for biting and pulling hair?


There's a slight difference in being "involved" on ice and skating by an already injured player, who's down on the ice on his hand and knees, and taking a shot at him.

Ohlund was elbowed and the chop was in a moment of retaliation. Nope, didn't like it one bit but it was a reactionary thing. Same with Burr...it's not like he skated up and did those things to an unsuspecting player....he was in a situation whereby stuff was being done to him and he retaliated.

Messier purposefully skated past an injured guy on the ice who posed no threat to him at the time...took a cheap/dirty shot at someone already down. A whole different ball game. It's a lowlife, cowardly thing to do and the others are not at ALL comparable.

Well said, D...exactly what I was going to point out re our "horrible" roster at the time. We had some pretty great players and I'm glad you pointed that out (as I was about to). Thanks for saving me the keystrokes. :)

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#221 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:03 PM

You two are hilarious. When it's someone you like, it's "Oh, it was the heat of the moment", but someone you don't like is a dirty POS...

I'm not a Messier fan by any stretch, but the over the top hatred that goes on in this forum is ridiculous.

BTW, Terloch: I've played several sports at a high level and long before most of the people in this discussion were even born.

In fact, I have on several occasions taken cheap shots in a hockey game, (elbows, slashes, puches, etc.) but I have never taken a baseball swing at an opponents ankle.

Edited by RUPERTKBD, 07 August 2012 - 03:05 PM.

Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#222 Tearloch7

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:09 PM

You two are hilarious. When it's someone you like, it's "Oh, it was the heat of the moment", but someone you don't like is a dirty POS...

I'm not a Messier fan by any stretch, but the over the top hatred that goes on in this forum is ridiculous.

BTW, Terloch: I've played several sports at a high level and long before most of the people in this discussion were even born.


We are of an age .. and the name is spelled with an "a" in there .. it is not about favorites, it is about understanding a "reflex reaction" i.e. Mathias on Koivu versus a "premeditated act" i.e. Koivu and Doana and Messier .. the difference between a reflex reaction and a DB Keith type "intentional" act are night and day .. has nothing to do with the player really .. if you canna see that, then best get yer prescription changed .. B)

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#223 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:12 PM

We are of an age .. and the name is spelled with an "a" in there .. it is not about favorites, it is about understanding a "reflex reaction" i.e. Mathias on Koivu versus a "premeditated act" i.e. Koivu and Doana and Messier .. the difference between a reflex reaction and a DB Keith type "intentional" act are night and day .. has nothing to do with the player really .. if you canna see that, then best get yer prescription changed .. B)


Interesting how you edit out the part where I state that I have been in the exact same "reactionary" situation, but never resorted to the type of play that Ohlie used on Koivu.

Didn't support your theory?
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#224 Tearloch7

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:43 PM

Interesting how you edit out the part where I state that I have been in the exact same "reactionary" situation, but never resorted to the type of play that Ohlie used on Koivu.

Didn't support your theory?


Um .. you added your final comment after I started responding .. that just tells me your reflexes are not what they should have been .. that is why your post says "edited" .. see, even now your reflexes dinna measure up .. :lol:

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#225 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:47 PM

Um .. you added your final comment after I started responding .. that just tells me your reflexes are not what they should have been .. that is why your post says "edited" .. see, even now your reflexes dinna measure up .. :lol:


I'll take that as a "no".
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#226 Tearloch7

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:52 PM

I'll take that as a "no".


Find another windmill to tilt at .. ask most highly functioning athletes, who respond more from reflex than from cognitive thought, and you will get the answer .. you may not like, or agree, with the answer but you will at least get an answer .. in a high speed game like the NHL, if you have to think about what you are doing it is usually too late .. take a hammer and smack your knee and tell me what happens .. afore it's too late ..

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#227 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:05 PM

Find another windmill to tilt at .. ask most highly functioning athletes, who respond more from reflex than from cognitive thought, and you will get the answer .. you may not like, or agree, with the answer but you will at least get an answer .. in a high speed game like the NHL, if you have to think about what you are doing it is usually too late .. take a hammer and smack your knee and tell me what happens .. afore it's too late ..


I'm well aware of how things happen in the heat of the moment in a hockey game. After all I've played in over 1000 of them myself.

I still see nothing that supports a claim that one player who threw a cheap shot at a Canuck (whether premeditated or no) is a POS, whereas a player who broke an opponents leg with a two-handed slash on a reactionary play, is exhonerated.

It has been my experience that somewhere in between, in both cases, would be much closer to the truth.
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#228 TimberWolf

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:08 PM

Interesting how you edit out the part where I state that I have been in the exact same "reactionary" situation, but never resorted to the type of play that Ohlie used on Koivu.

Didn't support your theory?


People are individuals, not everyone is going to react the same. I have hurt people that tried to hurt me in a game, not my proudest moment, but I only had two gears. Relaxed and full-out.

Looking at your argument, though, overall it looks as if you are trying too hard to be Devils Advocate. You are microscoping some Canuck plays into the Messier cheap shot on Linden but they are dissimilar as proven. Did I like Ohlund taking lumberjack swings? No, but you would be the first and only to go "that's the same play as Messier hittng Linden while he was down"

Edited by TimberWolf, 07 August 2012 - 04:10 PM.

I was saying Lu-Urns...

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#229 Tearloch7

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:12 PM

I'm well aware of how things happen in the heat of the moment in a hockey game. After all I've played in over 1000 of them myself.

I still see nothing that supports a claim that one player who threw a cheap shot at a Canuck (whether premeditated or no) is a POS, whereas a player who broke an opponents leg with a two-handed slash on a reactionary play, is exhonerated.

It has been my experience that somewhere in between, in both cases, would be much closer to the truth.


Its not just a Canuck .. it is any player who reacts to an act by another player versus harboring anger and THEN l;ashing out .. what Messier did was NOT reactionary .. what DB Keith did to Daniel was not reactionary .. all of this said, Messier IS a POS .. there are multiple examples of his behavior that PROVE his he is a HUGE POS .. my point is the difference beteeen per-mediation versus a reactionary act ..

Edited by Tearloch7, 07 August 2012 - 04:13 PM.

"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

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#230 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:15 PM

People are individuals, not everyone is going to react the same. I have hurt people that tried to hurt me in a game, not my proudest moment, but I only had two gears. Relaxed and full-out.

Looking at your argument, though, overall it looks as if you are trying too hard to be Devils Advocate. You are microscoping some Canuck plays into the Messier cheap shot on Linden pus they are dissimilar as proven. Did I like Ohlund taking lumberjack swings? No, but you would be the first and only to go "that's the same play as Messier hittng Linden while he was down"


Not what I was saying at all. I'm merely pointing out that a questionable cheap shot on the favorite Canuck of all time doesn't make Messier a POS that deserves no respect whatsoever.

FTR: I don't like Messier. Never did. I was one of those cheering the loudest when Steve Smith banked the puck in off Grant Fuhr's leg.

I just get tired of the over-the-top hate that gets thrown around on CDC on a regular basis and I can't help but try and inject a bit of reality into the conversation.

The fact is, Messier was known for playing dirty. So was Gordie Howe. So was Eddie Shore. So were a lot of great players. It time Canuck fans got over themselves.
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#231 thema

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:03 PM

I just get tired of the over-the-top hate that gets thrown around on CDC on a regular basis and I can't help but try and inject a bit of reality into the conversation.

The fact is, Messier was known for playing dirty. So was Gordie Howe. So was Eddie Shore. So were a lot of great players. It time Canuck fans got over themselves.


I agree. Just because I don't feel like participating in this particular 2 minute hate doesn't make me a "Messier lover"; I was never a fan either. Scrolling through his career trying to pick out every little cheap hit he delivered is kind of pathetic if you ask me. The man played tough and, occasionally dirty. Just like Mr. Hockey and Eddie Shore. To say that he is the sole reason that the team failed when he was amongst the team's highest scorers is at the age of 36 disingenious. A lot of people are suggesting that here.

Edited by thema, 07 August 2012 - 07:17 PM.


#232 Bodee

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:02 AM

I'm well aware of how things happen in the heat of the moment in a hockey game. After all I've played in over 1000 of them myself.

I still see nothing that supports a claim that one player who threw a cheap shot at a Canuck (whether premeditated or no) is a POS, whereas a player who broke an opponents leg with a two-handed slash on a reactionary play, is exhonerated.

It has been my experience that somewhere in between, in both cases, would be much closer to the truth.


I must agree with this. It is my experience that anyone who would register so far off the scale as to take a hack at another player like that does not even have his mind in the game...........he's lost the place as they say. Nothing like any natural sporting reaction, more like a temporary loss of sanity.

The difference with Messier is from what I have seen of him, he appears to think that what he does is acceptable, ie like Howe or more recently Torres. Whereas most players have self discipline built into them and realise the difference between what is acceptable and what isn't.

However having said that he was without dispute a great player and a great leader no matter how flawed the greatness was.

Edited by Bodee, 08 August 2012 - 03:22 AM.

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#233 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:31 AM

I must agree with this. It is my experience that anyone who would register so far off the scale as to take a hack at another player like that does not even have his mind in the game...........he's lost the place as they say. Nothing like any natural sporting reaction, more like a temporary loss of sanity.

The difference with Messier is from what I have seen of him, he appears to think that what he does is acceptable, ie like Howe or more recently Torres. Whereas most players have self discipline built into them and realise the difference between what is acceptable and what isn't.

However having said that he was without dispute a great player and a great leader no matter how flawed the greatness was.


And Hitler had a wonderful way with words .. true story ..

"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#234 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:51 AM

Well, when Godwin's Law is invoked, you can rest assured that a topic has reached it's saturation point.

I'm out.
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#235 Shift-4

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:18 AM

Surprised not too many are bashing McCaw in all of this
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#236 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:53 AM

Surprised not too many are bashing McCaw in all of this


I think most folks who remember those days wish they didn't .. mismanagement run amok!! .. "ignorance is bliss", and all of that ..

"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#237 Bodee

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:58 PM

Surprised not too many are bashing McCaw in all of this


I think I referred to the management / organisation a few times..............but it was buried under the Messier hatefest. :)
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#238 kmotamed

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:00 AM

I don't think this will help his reputation amongst Canucks fans very much... =P

#239 thema

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:33 PM

I don't think this will help his reputation amongst Canucks fans very much... =P


Like he cares.

A question: if we sign the 36 year old Doan to the biggest contract on the roster and he doesn't lead the team in scoring AND we struggle will he get similar hate fests on this board in the future?

#240 Bodee

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:11 AM

Like he cares.

A question: if we sign the 36 year old Doan to the biggest contract on the roster and he doesn't lead the team in scoring AND we struggle will he get similar hate fests on this board in the future?


I see what you are saying and there is no doubt he would ...........probably by the same people who are brown nosing him now. (just like in the Messier time I would imagine ......)

However there are some differences. Firstly, no matter what some would have us believe, Messier joined a less than mediocre roster (leaving a very good one) especially when Bure left......................... Doan is joining an Elite team here, and that is why I would consider anything over $6M per is overpaying him.

Secondly, Messier was a much greater player than Doan is, or will ever be imo.
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