TOMapleLaughs Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Or do you think the best is yet to come for our society? IMO, Western Civilization had its peak in the 1950s, and began to decline starting in the late 1960s. History has shown that societal collapse begins when one of several things happen: Destratification: During societal collapse the social institutions supporting such specialization are removed and people tend to become more generalized in their work and daily habits. Decentralization: As power becomes decentralized people tend to be more self-regimented and have many more personal freedoms. In many instances of collapse there is a slackening of social rules and etiquette. Depopulation: Societal collapse is almost always associated with a decline in population densities. In extreme cases, the collapse in population is so severe that the society disappears entirely. Depopulation is a major development in most western countries today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Ed Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Well everyone is still trying to get the hell out of their native countries and move west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossi Vaananen Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Nothing new here. Best two authors for this topic would be Francis Fukuyama, The End of History and Samuel Huntington, Clash of Civilizations.If I were to expand it would become an essay so I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vapourstreak Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Well everyone is still trying to get the hell out of their native countries and move west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butters Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Perception if you ask me. I don't know what it is about people, but there's a huge attraction to doomsaying, and especially being on the doomsaying bandwagon early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Ed Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 The point of development of the West, even in decline, is higher than a lot of countries on the incline, so that's not really relavent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 There's a lot of avenues for discussion here, and sadly I don't have a lot of time atm. Few quick points off the top of my head: 1.) A lot of what is "wrong" in Western civilization is as a result of Capitalism, just as a lot of what is "right" is also due to Capitalism. 2.) The timeline from the quote reminds me of a line of thought that suggests that the Allies from WW2 (read: mostly the USA) screwed themselves by facilitating the rebuilding of the industrial base of Germany and Japan at a pace faster than what their domestic production could compete. So, with newer facilities they were soon able to build faster, cheaper and, eventually, better. 3.) Related to this is the role of Capitalism in the movement of production off-shore, and with it, jobs. With the loss of jobs you also lose some of the opportunity to provide basic education (ie. a poor district can't afford the same quality as a wealthy district), and also the ability of the population to buy domestic products. Think Japanese or Taiwanese goods in the 60's, which was supplanted by Korean production, which was supplanted by... and so on, until we got to today and China. It's an interesting avenue of discussion would be to try and figure out if Michael Moore would ever have come to prominence if GM hadn't downsized their car production in Michigan. 4.) Population differences are becoming much more drastic than before. Western money interests were for years salivating at the thought of getting access to China and that huge population. They got their wish, and we see what has happened there. They're buying up resources (which makes our lives here more expensive), and they are then buying up the debt which they helped generate by their consumption of our resources and products. regards, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Decline? I don't think so. I think if anything we're on the precipice of another social and industrial revolution. Everything evolves or dies. Our society isn't any different. 'Civilization' will evolve and adapt and continue. Old remnants of our civilization may take longer to get over or past, which have been dragging society down or at least holding it back in some ways, and it will be difficult to shed them, but eventually I think we will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bieksasangryface Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 none the less are without a doubt a member of the worst period generation period ever period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don’t know what the frack you’re talking about. Yosemite? It sure used to be. We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reasons. We passed laws, struck down laws for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were and we never beat our chests. We built great big things, made ungodly technological advances, explored the universe, cured diseases, and cultivated the world’s greatest artists and the world’s greatest economy. We reached for the stars, acted like men, we aspired to intelligence, we didn’t belittle it, it didn’t make us feel inferior. We didn’t identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election and we didn’t scare so easy. We were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed, by great men, men who were revered. First step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one. America is not the greatest country in the world anymore. Enough?” -Will McAvoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoolander Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 No, the best is yet to come. Canada is a rising superpower in the world and the US are coming back after a devastating recession. With all our medical breakthroughs and more eco-friendly cars and other inventions, we are far from peaking. In fact, I think we have a long incline still ahead of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vapourstreak Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Immigration is relevant. And wether or not 'the west' is in decline is a matter of opinion. This is just another discussion which just goes in circles and a waste of time. That's just my thoughts though. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 As far as I know the West isn't as interested in the sciences anymore. case in point, the NASA program... I've seen videos of Dr Neil Tyson express his annoyance over the lack of funding for the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 none the less are without a doubt a member of the worst period generation period ever period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don’t know what the frack you’re talking about. Yosemite? It sure used to be. We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reasons. We passed laws, struck down laws for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were and we never beat our chests. We built great big things, made ungodly technological advances, explored the universe, cured diseases, and cultivated the world’s greatest artists and the world’s greatest economy. We reached for the stars, acted like men, we aspired to intelligence, we didn’t belittle it, it didn’t make us feel inferior. We didn’t identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election and we didn’t scare so easy. We were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed, by great men, men who were revered. First step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one. America is not the greatest country in the world anymore. Enough?” -Will McAvoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butters Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 So many things are spot on in this quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyzer Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 As far as I know the West isn't as interested in the sciences anymore. case in point, the NASA program... I've seen videos of Dr Neil Tyson express his annoyance over the lack of funding for the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLumme Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Every new generation is out to ruin society and destroy the world the previous generation has built... "I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" -- Hesiod, 8th century BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 In world we live in today, progress is defined by economic growth (unfortunately). Without a decent rate of growth the banking system in the west will have serious issues. Money won't be able to move around as quickly which will through a wrench into our "just-in-time" delivery system that all big box stores run on now. If those fail, we're in for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I dunno about that. It sounds more like a guy pining for his childhood. And a lot of those things are straight up wrong. Sure we had a huge boom after WW2 (with technical adavances taken from the Germans such as TV, rockertry etc) and the US was the only economy around. Now the world has caught up, and people take it as a sign of inferiority. But there was really no way of staying far ahead of the rest of the world without oppressing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Light Racicot Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Tainter seems to think a combination of decentralization, destratification and depopulation is a very ominous one, but you never explained why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyledude Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I don't like the use of the word "peak." It implies that we've somehow risen from the ashes - when really our society has been in decline for decades. And it's not like societies just "peak" and end - like others have said, they evolve. Here in North America, we need to evolve past this age of idiocy and The American Dream. A functional political system would be a good start. The corporate-controlled puppet show is getting tiring. It seems all that power wants to do is oppress people - it's sickening. A healthy society doesn't have nearly the political or economic inequality, not to mention inequality of opportunity. Breaking down the social stratification and ditching crony capitalism would be welcome changes. Just my $0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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