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Christy Clark's Religion Comments Spark Criticism From B.C. Atheists


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#151 Common sense

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:21 AM

Again, you'll have to ask her. They were her words and decisions. Whichever ones that she made with an assist from the Bible will be known to her and not be put in a footnote in legislation.


And even if I do, does it change anything that you believe about her? Even without this discussion, from page 1 and your original post, you write her off as a "moron" who believes Enbridge "was ordained from God."

Hard to discuss anything with a close-minded person like you if you already decide to create a conclusion based on that.

I don't know what you're still doing here, other than to drive this thread off-topic (like every other thread) with your assertions that Christians are genocide-endorsing rapists who abuse children.

#152 Common sense

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:23 AM

AFAIK, it's 2:22a and I'm much too tired to keep going in circles with crap like this. I'll let the rest of you rip into each other.

#153 Sharpshooter

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:25 AM

Looking to the Bible does not automatically equal pushing religious values towards people.
Who cares how she makes her decisions, that should not be an issue. The issue should be the actual decisions she makes. So far, none of her decisions have portrayed that she is trying to push religious values on the people.
Your ignorance to this is absolutely astounding.


Using religious texts to decide on secular matters is very much pushing one's religious beliefs on the rest of society. If I, for example, was a devout Jewish Premier who had a decision to make about an issue surrounding swine flu management, and I decided to base a legislative decision to ban all pork products from B.C whether domestically grown or sourced from elsewhere, and I did so after consulting the Torah or whatever scripture that outlaws pork as an 'unclean' animal. Then I just made a secular decision based on religious inspiration that now will affect the non-Jewish constituents who raise pigs on their farms, as well as the bacon-loving constituency of B.C.

You keep using the word 'ignorance' or 'ignorant', yet you still have been able to answer, how?

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#154 Sharpshooter

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:26 AM

So you can't tell which decisions were made with help via Bible?
Interesting.


Not really interesting...since I never claimed to be a mind-reader. Only one among some who have a concern now that she's asserted that she uses the Bible in her decision making process.

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#155 dajusta

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:29 AM

Using religious texts to decide on secular matters is very much pushing one's religious beliefs on the rest of society. If I, for example, was a devout Jewish Premier who had a decision to make about an issue surrounding swine flu management, and I decided to base a legislative decision to ban all pork products from B.C whether domestically grown or sourced from elsewhere, and I did so after consulting the Torah or whatever scripture that outlaws pork as an 'unclean' animal. Then I just made a secular decision based on religious inspiration that now will affect the non-Jewish constituents who raise pigs on their farms, as well as the bacon-loving constituency of B.C.

You keep using the word 'ignorance' or 'ignorant', yet you still have been able to answer, how?


Define secular matters? How is one issue only exclusive to a secular area? People are people. We live in the same world. We breathe the same air, we eat the same food, we go to the same schools.

Don't throw that word secular around as if it's a repellent to all things spiritual. My values affect the way I view the world and I think it is a travesty that there are so many ignored children in Cambodia. Therefore, I should act upon my convictions and do something about it through any means possible, secular or religious, it doesn't matter.
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#156 Sharpshooter

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:33 AM

And even if I do, does it change anything that you believe about her? Even without this discussion, from page 1 and your original post, you write her off as a "moron" who believes Enbridge "was ordained from God."

Hard to discuss anything with a close-minded person like you if you already decide to create a conclusion based on that.

I don't know what you're still doing here, other than to drive this thread off-topic (like every other thread) with your assertions that Christians are genocide-endorsing rapists who abuse children.


I don't base my concern on 'belief'. I base it on her own admissions.

How have I driven the thread off topic? I'm discussing Clark and her decision making admissions in almost every post.

And I never made the claim that Christians were genocide-endorsing rapists who abuse children. I said that the Bible contained non-disavowed events of genocide, child abuse, and rape, some which were endorsed and acted upon by the giver of morals and ethics apparently.

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#157 Sharpshooter

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:37 AM

Define secular matters? How is one issue only exclusive to a secular area? People are people. We live in the same world. We breathe the same air, we eat the same food, we go to the same schools.

Don't throw that word secular around as if it's a repellent to all things spiritual. My values affect the way I view the world and I think it is a travesty that there are so many ignored children in Cambodia. Therefore, I should act upon my convictions and do something about it through any means possible, secular or religious, it doesn't matter.


Matters that are non-religious. Many, if not most policy matters are secular issues that have no basis or grounding in religion.

Donations to Secular vs religious organizations can matter. Not all are equal. And many religious organizations use famine and other disaster to proselytize or put immoral religious based conditions on their aid.

See: Africa

Edited by Sharpshooter, 05 August 2012 - 02:38 AM.

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#158 Sharpshooter

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:39 AM

AFAIK, it's 2:22a and I'm much too tired to keep going in circles with crap like this. I'll let the rest of you rip into each other.


I look forward to more of your inanity tomorrow.

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#159 dajusta

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:43 AM

Matters that are non-religious. Many, if not most policy matters are secular issues that have no basis or grounding in religion.

Donations to Secular vs religious organizations can matter. Not all are equal. And many religious organizations use famine and other disaster to proselytize or put immoral religious based conditions on their aid.

See: Africa


Define one's values. Are they secular or religious?

How about my actions, are they secular or religious?

The choices I make, are they secular or religious?

Edited by dajusta, 05 August 2012 - 02:44 AM.

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#160 Sharpshooter

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:50 AM

Define one's values. Are they secular or religious?

How about my actions, are they secular or religious?

The choices I make, are they secular or religious?


It depends on how you define them, act out on them, and choose as the basis of your decision making process.

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#161 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:54 AM

Let me ask you - is morality based on results? Is it result oriented?

If a decision was made where the outcome would be delayed, does that make the moral standing delayed as well?

If US tortured muslim extremists to save the lives of millions, does the moral hammer not get revealed until how many lives were saved?

Morality is NOT dependent on results or the ends. Morality is the means to the end.


According to TBS's definition of morality from the video, torturing the extremists would cause unnecessary harm and suffering, and would therefore be immoral. We live in a reality where torturing people isn't the only means of saving people. Asking whether or not morality is determined pre or post facto is an interesting question that I don't know the answer to. Do you have a definition of morality that answers this?

Anyways, the point of the video was not to say that his definition of morality was the right one or perfect, but that a concrete, non-circular definition used to promote general well-being is infinitely more useful than a circular definition based on the "nature of God".

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 05 August 2012 - 03:11 AM.

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#162 dajusta

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 03:41 AM

According to TBS's definition of morality from the video, torturing the extremists would cause unnecessary harm and suffering, and would therefore be immoral. We live in a reality where torturing people isn't the only means of saving people. Asking whether or not morality is determined pre or post facto is an interesting question that I don't know the answer to. Do you have a definition of morality that answers this?

Anyways, the point of the video was not to say that his definition of morality was the right one or perfect, but that a concrete, non-circular definition used to promote general well-being is infinitely more useful than a circular definition based on the "nature of God".


Wait bud. By definition if torturing a few extremists with purpose to save a billion people, according to your statement on morality it is justified and righteous. Isn't it?

I would disagree with the video's premise that Christian's explanation of morality is simply saying the "nature of God". It is much more complex than that.

Asserting that God is omniscient and absolute truth is asserting that there is the opposite. Sin, false truths, lies.. etc. Asserting that God is righteous puts an identity on what those things are. What is righteous? Well we look at God's character. He is justice, mercy, gracious, loving.. all these things are what we consider moral.

Then we look at the opposite which is immoral and sin. These things are brokenness, death, murder, war, etc etc. These things are depicted in Scripture.

The video claims that Christianity's view on morality is flawed circular logic because the video itself does not see Christianity's measurement of morality itself.

Scripture is what defines morality for us. It is the Word of God. The video makes this claim of "then God is just the messenger of this morality".... well isn't that interesting? God, as Christians see him as, he IS the Word.

God is the law, the deliverer of the law and also the nature of law itself. If that is circular logic, then I am sorry, God cannot be fathomed by mere human minds. If you could put him into words, then that already defies the nature of a higher being.
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#163 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 03:56 AM

Wait bud. By definition if torturing a few extremists with purpose to save a billion people, according to your statement on morality it is justified and righteous. Isn't it?

I would disagree with the video's premise that Christian's explanation of morality is simply saying the "nature of God". It is much more complex than that.

Asserting that God is omniscient and absolute truth is asserting that there is the opposite. Sin, false truths, lies.. etc. Asserting that God is righteous puts an identity on what those things are. What is righteous? Well we look at God's character. He is justice, mercy, gracious, loving.. all these things are what we consider moral.

Then we look at the opposite which is immoral and sin. These things are brokenness, death, murder, war, etc etc. These things are depicted in Scripture.

The video claims that Christianity's view on morality is flawed circular logic because the video itself does not see Christianity's measurement of morality itself.

Scripture is what defines morality for us. It is the Word of God. The video makes this claim of "then God is just the messenger of this morality".... well isn't that interesting? God, as Christians see him as, he IS the Word.

God is the law, the deliverer of the law and also the nature of law itself. If that is circular logic, then I am sorry, God cannot be fathomed by mere human minds. If you could put him into words, then that already defies the nature of a higher being.


So if God's word is the definition of morality, then committing genocide would be moral if he commanded it, correct?
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#164 Buttock

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 04:09 AM

How do you know she isn't making policy or gov't decisions based on her faith?



Not to mention that she's a complete bullS#%! artist who doesn't really care about BC's future as much as she does about her own short term success.


She is a complete bull artist, that is why you don't have to worry about this. This is just a sop for religious voters, especially in the province's bible belt, who might be thinking about voting Conservative.

#165 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 04:24 AM

I was wondering, would everyone (especially the Christians) feel the same way about this if Clark referred to the Quran rather then the Bible?

Surely in this country it is equally worthy of consultation?

Edited by Red Light Racicot, 05 August 2012 - 06:26 AM.


#166 Hobbes!!!

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 04:28 AM

Holy smokes, she went on and on just (barely) answering that first question. As for the bible thing... whatever. Lots of people are religious. She doesnt strike me as someone who is a hardcore bible thumper so I couldnt care less.

She strikes me more and more as very manipulative and fake. Almost Carol James fake.


#167 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:17 AM

Being a Christian isn't the definition of a good person. This is where most Atheists get wrong (and most Christians too).

The difference between a Christians and atheists, is that Christians have embraced that we are bad. Christians acknowledge that no matter how hard we try, we can't attain a label of "righteousness". We are sinful and rotten people inside. Christians acknowledge this and put our faith in Jesus Christ. We follow his teaching and lifestyle worship.

An atheist, well I don't know what your particular beliefs are, but you think you're good? Good to according to what? Your friend? Your neighbour? What does good mean?

I tell you one thing. No human being is righteous. Only God can make us righteous.


I'll tell YOU one thing...I don't know where you get your information on atheists...but we don't have any "particular set of beliefs", that would be religion's job. And second of all, God didn't make you and your christian ilk righteous...he made you incredibly self-righteous...for you to imply at all that we as atheists NEED approval or someone to tell us we are "good" is really insulting to me. You don't NEED to have to follow vague rules from a book teaching Bronze Age philosophies to be "Good" "Good" comes from your heart, your actions...the compassion you feel for your fellow man...and I know an organization FULL of atheists that qualify for "good" based on that definition. So, based on the sentence I have highlighted...you have contradicted your first sentence, and are implying because we don't have a "moral code" telling us we're "good" that we are not "righteous"? We fight for equality, true justice, and against things we consider to be infringing on our rights as humans, and if that includes taking your religion down, man...then so be it. We fight for what is "right" in our eyes...so actually that DOES make us "righteous". Have a nice day.
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#168 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:21 AM

My opinion is that she's a politician who is full of crap. She doesn't use the bible any more than I use hair products however the for stage she was on that is the face she needed to put forward.


Also whichever one of you got Dajusta started on morality you should give yourself 10 lashes. It's like listening to a 12 year old try to talk about physics. They have no god damn clue what they're talking about and they're too old for it to be cute.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 05 August 2012 - 08:23 AM.

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#169 dajusta

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:26 AM

I'll tell YOU one thing...I don't know where you get your information on atheists...but we don't have any "particular set of beliefs", that would be religion's job. And second of all, God didn't make you and your christian ilk righteous...he made you incredibly self-righteous...for you to imply at all that we as atheists NEED approval or someone to tell us we are "good" is really insulting to me. You don't NEED to have to follow vague rules from a book teaching Bronze Age philosophies to be "Good" "Good" comes from your heart, your actions...the compassion you feel for your fellow man...and I know an organization FULL of atheists that qualify for "good" based on that definition. So, based on the sentence I have highlighted...you have contradicted your first sentence, and are implying because we don't have a "moral code" telling us we're "good" that we are not "righteous"? We fight for equality, true justice, and against things we consider to be infringing on our rights as humans, and if that includes taking your religion down, man...then so be it. We fight for what is "right" in our eyes...so actually that DOES make us "righteous". Have a nice day.


I'm not saying Christianity makes me righteous more than anyone else. If you got that vibe, I apologize.

What I meant to say is, without a belief structure, how did you get to the conclusion that your actions are right? By what standard? You said you do right in your own eyes You know with that kind of reasoning everyone will do something different, right?

Edited by dajusta, 05 August 2012 - 08:27 AM.

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#170 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:27 AM

My opinion is that she's a politician who is full of crap. She doesn't use the bible any more than I use hair products however the for stage she was on that is the face she needed to put forward.


Also whichever one of you got Dajusta started on morality you should give yourself 10 lashes. It's like listening to a 12 year old try to talk about physics. They have no god damn clue what they're talking about and they're too old for it to be cute.


LOL! +1!
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#171 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:30 AM

I'm not saying Christianity makes me righteous more than anyone else. If you got that vibe, I apologize.

What I meant to say is, without a belief structure, how did you get to the conclusion that your actions are right? By what standard? You said you do right in your own eyes You know with that kind of reasoning everyone will do something different, right?


Without a belief structure...hmm...I guess I just...I dunno...Used my BRAIN to figure it out on my own??? Do you need a set of beliefs to help you decide not to touch a burning stove? No...you do it once, you burn yourself, you make a mental note not to do that again...It's called deductive reasoning...and you don't need a belief system for that, you need to know how to observe situations and take note of the consequences for your own actions.
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#172 Jägermeister

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:32 AM

Using religious texts to decide on secular matters is very much pushing one's religious beliefs on the rest of society. If I, for example, was a devout Jewish Premier who had a decision to make about an issue surrounding swine flu management, and I decided to base a legislative decision to ban all pork products from B.C whether domestically grown or sourced from elsewhere, and I did so after consulting the Torah or whatever scripture that outlaws pork as an 'unclean' animal. Then I just made a secular decision based on religious inspiration that now will affect the non-Jewish constituents who raise pigs on their farms, as well as the bacon-loving constituency of B.C.

You keep using the word 'ignorance' or 'ignorant', yet you still have been able to answer, how?


But she isn't doing things like that!
Nobody is saying things like that in your example don't happen, or couldn't happen, but as of now they are not happening. The fact is, she has not made any decisions that you can trace back to having been made because she consulted the Bible. If you can't tell which decisions she consulted the Bible for, then why does it matter?
And like I said before, she probably doesn't even consult the Bible. She is probably just trying to pull in a few more votes from conservatives.
I've said numerous times how you're displaying your ignorance. If you really can't see it still, then you are simply affirming my accusation.
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#173 dajusta

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:37 AM

Without a belief structure...hmm...I guess I just...I dunno...Used my BRAIN to figure it out on my own??? Do you need a set of beliefs to help you decide not to touch a burning stove? No...you do it once, you burn yourself, you make a mental note not to do that again...It's called deductive reasoning...and you don't need a belief system for that, you need to know how to observe situations and take note of the consequences for your own actions.


Sir, think about what you are saying. The book of Judges carefully examines the human heart in a world where everyone did right in their own eye exactly like what you said. The outcome is not pretty.

I don't have to do much to refute your claims of personal righteousness as an ethical worldview because societal law is enough evidence for that. Do you abide by societal laws? Do you think they benefit society? If you do, then you've already conceded that humanity would be worse off without some sort of moral principle and structure.
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#174 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:38 AM

But she isn't doing things like that!
Nobody is saying things like that in your example don't happen, or couldn't happen, but as of now they are not happening. The fact is, she has not made any decisions that you can trace back to having been made because she consulted the Bible. If you can't tell which decisions she consulted the Bible for, then why does it matter?
And like I said before, she probably doesn't even consult the Bible. She is probably just trying to pull in a few more votes from conservatives.
I've said numerous times how you're displaying your ignorance. If you really can't see it still, then you are simply affirming my accusation.


Jager I think all Sharp is doing really is voicing a concern that if she says "the bible helps me make tough decisions" he's worried that if elected just the mere idea that she said this brings about a chance that she'll consult it to make political decisions....and if that isn't what he's saying...that's what I would be concerned about in this situation...as I said earlier, keeping religion out of government to eliminate any chance of it.
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#175 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:43 AM

Sir, think about what you are saying. The book of Judges carefully examines the human heart in a world where everyone did right in their own eye exactly like what you said. The outcome is not pretty.

I don't have to do much to refute your claims of personal righteousness as an ethical worldview because societal law is enough evidence for that. Do you abide by societal laws? Do you think they benefit society? If you do, then you've already conceded that humanity would be worse off without some sort of moral principle and structure.


And here you are citing biblical references to make your point...that didn't take long...and no...I really don't think societal laws benefit society, any more than I think tired, antiquated morality clauses and religious beliefs benefit society...I think you're retarding any progress this society should be attempting to make, and you should step aside, stop obstructing the evolution of the human brain, and while you're at it, your "houses of worship" (nearly heaved when I typed that) need to start paying property taxes like everyone else in this "society" and THEN you can start lecturing me or anyone else on morality.
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#176 dajusta

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:51 AM

And here you are citing biblical references to make your point...that didn't take long...and no...I really don't think societal laws benefit society, any more than I think tired, antiquated morality clauses and religious beliefs benefit society...I think you're retarding any progress this society should be attempting to make, and you should step aside, stop obstructing the evolution of the human brain, and while you're at it, your "houses of worship" (nearly heaved when I typed that) need to start paying property taxes like everyone else in this "society" and THEN you can start lecturing me or anyone else on morality.


Okay, I really hope you know the gravity of your statement.

Are you really saying that without societal laws humanity would be similar or better than it is today? Y/N
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#177 Hobble

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:53 AM

When I find myself in crisis and need to make critical decisions that affect many other people, I always like to turn to Harry Potter for guidance...




:frantic: :ph34r: ;)

#178 dajusta

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:54 AM

So if God's word is the definition of morality, then committing genocide would be moral if he commanded it, correct?


If the author of morality and supreme justice in the universe gave a command, who as mere mortals are able to judge that command?

It's easy to pass judgement on things we do not understand.

Edited by dajusta, 05 August 2012 - 08:55 AM.

I'm Christian
I won't judge you
No one is perfect
Only through Jesus
Will we find Truth

#179 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 09:03 AM

Okay, I really hope you know the gravity of your statement.

Are you really saying that without societal laws humanity would be similar or better than it is today? Y/N


I'm saying without morality being shoved down our throats by proselytes like you humanity would be better off than it is today. And I just love how you only read that part of the post and didn't bother commenting on the valid point I made in the last part. You and those like you feel like because in your twisted worldviews "morality" entails telling women what to do with their bodies, telling homosexuals they shouldn't have the same rights as heterosexual couples because of how they choose to go about their lives, and lecturing to anyone you feel doesn't measure up to your morality standards, that you're superior to them in some way. You've got an awful lot of balls talking about "morality" at all, in my opinion.

Edited by Slaytanic Wehrmacht, 05 August 2012 - 09:10 AM.

Posted Image

#180 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 09:09 AM

Asserting that God is righteous puts an identity on what those things are. What is righteous? Well we look at God's character. He is justice, mercy, gracious, loving.. all these things are what we consider moral.


Instead of engaging this guy in debate, he should be pointed at and laughed at for having such utterly stupid beliefs.

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Only a Christian can call a god that wipes out all of humanity good and just and loving. Oh, and merciful. That's the biggest hoot of all.

Rather than trying to figure out morality, I think we should collectively figure out what those words mean to dajusta. :lol:

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image





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