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What We Learned: Maybe Mike Gillis was serious


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#61 nuck nit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:33 PM

How? Garrison is a huge upgrade over Salo and Rome put together.


Salo -Paid two million by Gillis.Now making double what Mikey dictated to pay him.

Rome-Paid $750k by Gillis.Now making $1.5 million-another double over Mikey.

Garrison-$5.5 million this year,$6.5 next year.
$700k last year.Highest paid Canuck signs a six year ,no trade after one statistically fine season.

You can argue Garrison's youth makes him more attractive but he is not as adept as Sami offensively and he is being paid the equivelant of two Salo's and two Rome's for this year over the Salo/Rome payment last year.

Next year Garrison will make the equivelant of 2.25 Salo's and 2.25 Romes.

Believe me,the guy is not worth 2.25 Salo's,alone.Never mind the six year deal and the fact you don't pay a Rome equivelant for another 2.25 years with your savings.

It is a case of Mikey lowballing guys and guys are getting tired of his act.So,they are leaving and now Mikey has to pay.

#62 GHL

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:33 PM

If by "interesting", you mean "horse bleep", sure.

You can't "drive up" somebody's value in the NHL. You're not an institution buying stock. Cody still had to go out and make all the plays that he did. Cody had to go out and win all the faceoffs. Etc. This is a stupid, spiteful premise to take. Gillis is essentially saying that Hodgson sucks, and that he was a creation of the Vancouver Canucks - OK, Mike, we'll see about that one.

BTW, speaking of values, how sad is it that perennial top-10 goaltender Roberto Luongo can't even get back some mid-1st rounder from a team already loaded with youth?


You're out of line.

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#63 GHL

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:39 PM

He can?

We have no 2nd line C until December, we have a cyclops for our 3rd line C, and we have serious questions regarding our scoring.

There is a LOT of work to do. And, again, I'll remind you that we're currently the 2011-12 team, MINUS Rome, MINUS Salo, plus Garrison. That is a team that has gotten worse. Patience is not something that's going to work here, Gillis needs to act.


Sure. Why not be MINUS Luongo too and tank because we don't have goaltending. Oh yeah. The Canucks have Schneider the savior.

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#64 GHL

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:41 PM

While I still believe Luongo can make a lot of teams better, I'm not so sure that he holds the magic that he once had in the League. Teams have found his weaknesses and constantly exploit them, and no longer fear facing him. If this is true, then maybe Gillis is expecting a bit too much for him in trade !! Its a game the GM's are playing..like chess. Who wins will be the guy with the best game plan.
I think cap space is a huge consideration for the Canucks, if they want to add an expensive forward to the mix. Another valid reason to dump Lous salery.


Dis you ever play Monopoly smurf? How donyou win the game? By having the most money or by having the most property?

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#65 King of the ES

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 06:47 PM

You can argue Garrison's youth makes him more attractive but he is not as adept as Sami offensively and he is being paid the equivelant of two Salo's and two Rome's for this year over the Salo/Rome payment last year.


I think Sami is pretty adept all-around. He's going to be missed, you watch and see. One of the most well-rounded guys we've had in a long, long time. Would've been WAY smarter to just give him his 2 years, instead of heavily invest in a risky asset like Garrison.

#66 nuck nit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:05 PM

Agreed but Gillis has been getting away with lowballing long term Canuck faithfuls like Sami for years now and Gillis might have begun to think a gift had become his right.Now that is ending.

If I was Salo and saw what Ballard and Bieksa make I would not be waiting around to be lowballed yet again so Mike can save dough and blow it on another head injured forward like Booth for 4.5 million or whatever.

At a certain point in time the honeymoon period ends and it appears the Gillis honeymoon has now ended.

Mike has a two year window so he better get with it.Hockey in Vancouver will be very good but Gillis' reputation will not be.

#67 kylecanuck

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:05 PM

It might not be from FL? Well, that is for Luongo to decide isn't it. Luongo's decision is not about Vancouver getting the best return, it's about where he wants to play, and guess what, it's pretty much down to FL which leaves MG with no bargaining power. Oh yes, MG is looking forward to starting next season with Luongo as the back up!



Loungo has said he'd be willing to go to other teams. Florida has two teams that are on his list, Tampa bay may be quiet but who knows. I believe he even said Toronto at one point.
http://ca.sports.yah...-134700505.html
Remember lou wants out too... Having him on the team to start the season may not be as bad as you assume. Schneider knows Lou is going, so does Lou, it would only take a month of hockey before offers start coming in. You think Lou wouldn't also open his list to a contender if someone came knocking. Schneider and Lou would get almost equal starts with Schneider getting the majority.



The children, wont someone please think of the children!!!

#68 elvis15

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:11 PM

What the heck do those stats mean, anyway?

I guess you didn't bother clicking the link then, eh?

“Fenwick”, an advanced metric that counts up all goals, shots, and misses for and against, to produce an expanded plus/minus number

PDO is a rating that will trend towards 100% in all but some very special cases and show if a player is overperforming or underperforming.

What it means in context of the actual results is our possession went way down while we were trying to fit Cody into the best possible scenarios and we overachieved on our results. Once he was gone, our possession results increased to even better than what they were before the showcase but we didn't overachieve like we had been doing.

Since the article talks about the slump after the Boston game, that makes sense that we were a better team, just not getting the results like we had been earlier. It does tend to explain it if you read what he's talking about.

What's not debatable is the consideration received for trading 1, rather than another, of the two goalies.

What we'd get for Schneider vis-a-vis what we'd get for Luongo is FAR greater than the discrepancy in their play, if Schneider is indeed the better goalie.

That is a point of consideration. Whether that gap is so much that it overreaches the future they're banking on with Cory, that remains to be seen. Only time will tell there, but with all the negatives (some actual and some perceived) around Luongo they seem to feel that's the better choice.

I had no problem with them bringing Cory along to this point, as his trade value really wasn't what his value was to us. They had to do more than just make him an AHL all star to trade him. They made him into a budding NHL star instead, and they didn't get the return they wanted right away, but then it morphed to a point where Luongo helped decide it.

By no means do I think he's not professional enough to play here next season if a trade doesn't happen immediately. He won't be a cancer in the room, especially if he wants to limit the teams he can go to and try and get to Florida. Gillis will have his chance to get a return he likes even if it's not what everyone expects.

If it goes on long enough, it'll limit the options, as it would if we had cap considerations. We aren't there yet though, and I'm interested to see how the rest of the summer plays out.

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#69 nuck nit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:12 PM

Sure. Why not be MINUS Luongo too and tank because we don't have goaltending. Oh yeah. The Canucks have Schneider the savior.


You mean the goalie that has won a single playoff game and has never played beyond a 33 game season?

Love Schneids and hope for the best but euphoria is not the feeling I have in this situation.

#70 nuck nit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:19 PM

What fans do not consider is what was promised Luongo and how he was treated by management.

That will decide what Luo decides to do and how he does it.

The ball is in Luo's court.The guy has so much dough he can retire for a season like Thomas and just hang out at home in Florida and watch Panther and Lightening games.Bond with his daughter,eat spaghetti and enjoy life in the sun.

Beats the rain and putting up with the nonsense he is about to endure coming back here.He already packed and left and he ain't coming back.That was stated months ago for those that haven't heard.

Only the Gillis spin is sucked up and replayed by those that don't pay attention.

#71 Bure1994Mclean

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:21 PM

Hold out until the trade deadline, some sucker will be willing to overpay for his services.
OMG SUNDIN.

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#72 Barry_Wilkins

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:23 PM

Exactly.Now he has a p'd off franchise goaltender that has been thrown under the bus and he won't be dictated to.

Gillis is under immense pressure and the Luongo risk is that he is a cancer in the room come September that WON'T END.

He wants to go now as Mike has decreed it so.Now Mike is going to learn that it is not all Mike's World.


As long as we're playing hypothetical amateur psychologists, there's also the possibility that Luongo "caves" first (granting that your fantasy plays out as you define it), and that he'll very quickly get frustrated with sitting ten in a row in November while hearing catcalls at the end of the bench from opposing teams' fans (plus some of the hometown fans). That limited destination list will then begin to expand like John Davidson's waistline.

#73 NucksBruins

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:25 PM

Agreed but Gillis has been getting away with lowballing long term Canuck faithfuls like Sami for years now and Gillis might have begun to think a gift had become his right.Now that is ending.

If I was Salo and saw what Ballard and Bieksa make I would not be waiting around to be lowballed yet again so Mike can save dough and blow it on another head injured forward like Booth for 4.5 million or whatever.

At a certain point in time the honeymoon period ends and it appears the Gillis honeymoon has now ended.

Mike has a two year window so he better get with it.Hockey in Vancouver will be very good but Gillis' reputation will not be.


Salo is worth that contract if he stays healthy. Even then, it gets pretty dicey. If he retires after this season, that cap stays on the books next year. He played 69 games which is the most he has played since the lockout. I keep reading about how injury prone Kesler is when he hasn't played that few games in a season. Salo struggled when he had to play top 4 minutes last season and wore down as it went along.

Mike has a two year window? Why? A lot of players on this team are in their prime or entering their prime years. If the Sedins retire or leave, the money is there to sign replacements. Why is there a panic that this team has to win NOW or it will never happen?
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#74 nuck nit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:43 PM

As long as we're playing hypothetical amateur psychologists, there's also the possibility that Luongo "caves" first (granting that your fantasy plays out as you define it), and that he'll very quickly get frustrated with sitting ten in a row in November while hearing catcalls at the end of the bench from opposing teams' fans (plus some of the hometown fans). That limited destination list will then begin to expand like John Davidson's waistline.


Luongo has already stated he will not come back to Vancouver.This was broadcast on NW months ago by the 'In Goal Magazine' writer that had a lengthy conversation with Luo just prior to leaving Vancouver.

Will Lou come back to Vancouver to ride the pine? He has already stated he won't and does not have to.He can sit out as long as he wants to.

Luo has stated what his intentions are.It is Gillis that has to create a return for an asset he has blown.

#75 elvis15

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:53 PM

Salo -Paid two million by Gillis.Now making double what Mikey dictated to pay him.

Rome-Paid $750k by Gillis.Now making $1.5 million-another double over Mikey.

Garrison-$5.5 million this year,$6.5 next year.
$700k last year.Highest paid Canuck signs a six year ,no trade after one statistically fine season.

You can argue Garrison's youth makes him more attractive but he is not as adept as Sami offensively and he is being paid the equivelant of two Salo's and two Rome's for this year over the Salo/Rome payment last year.

Next year Garrison will make the equivelant of 2.25 Salo's and 2.25 Romes.

Believe me,the guy is not worth 2.25 Salo's,alone.Never mind the six year deal and the fact you don't pay a Rome equivelant for another 2.25 years with your savings.

It is a case of Mikey lowballing guys and guys are getting tired of his act.So,they are leaving and now Mikey has to pay.

Then it's a good thing he only has a cap hit of $4.6M, versus Salo's cap hit of $3.75M. That's only 1.22 Salos, and I think he's worth that. 10 years better age difference for at least similar defensive ability (although Garrison is more physical), and all for just an extra 0.22 of a Salo.

We'll see what happens this season about the offensive side of things, and if Garrison is at least close to last years numbers, I think it's a worth tradeoff. We'll see if Salo holds up to the lofty offensive standards you hold him by as well at 37.

Agreed but Gillis has been getting away with lowballing long term Canuck faithfuls like Sami for years now and Gillis might have begun to think a gift had become his right.Now that is ending.

If I was Salo and saw what Ballard and Bieksa make I would not be waiting around to be lowballed yet again so Mike can save dough and blow it on another head injured forward like Booth for 4.5 million or whatever.

At a certain point in time the honeymoon period ends and it appears the Gillis honeymoon has now ended.

Mike has a two year window so he better get with it.Hockey in Vancouver will be very good but Gillis' reputation will not be.

It's not called lowballing.

Certainly, Marty Brodeur isn't going around this off-season talking about how New Jersey lowballed him for all these years. Potentially the best goalie in the game - ever - only had a cap hit less than Luongo's? And he just helped his team to a SCF appearance? And took less at only 3 years older than Salo to stay on and help his team compete?

It's called staying competitive and getting buy in from your players. When you do that, players take less to stay. We've upgraded and Salo's making more than he ever has in any year or at any cap hit. All for the first time at 37.

I love Salo and all that he's done for this team, but he made the choice to move on. He got more money and more term, and good for him. We'll miss him, but we'll do fine without him too.

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#76 Tearloch7

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:56 PM

I think Sami is pretty adept all-around. He's going to be missed, you watch and see. One of the most well-rounded guys we've had in a long, long time. Would've been WAY smarter to just give him his 2 years, instead of heavily invest in a risky asset like Garrison.


I have loved Sami since he started in Ottawa, but he lost a step and became too tentative along the boards as the season wore on .. 2 years was too much risk .. Garrison will be just fine .. if you can hold your judgement til you actually see him play a few games with the Canucks before you apply you prognosticative "trickery" for us all .. I bet you just know the wine is gonna taste like crap afore the cork is pulled .. no? .. B)

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#77 cIutch

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:00 PM

I like that MG is playing hardball.

so is tallon

and even torontos hardballing might cost them another season , burkes stubborn but i think he might cave before tallon

Edited by cIutch, 06 August 2012 - 08:01 PM.

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#78 nuck nit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:01 PM

Mike has a two year window? Why? A lot of players on this team are in their prime or entering their prime years. If the Sedins retire or leave, the money is there to sign replacements. Why is there a panic that this team has to win NOW or it will never happen?

Mike's formula and bargaining position was supported by lights out goal tending and the fact the vast majority of players took discounts to play here.

Luongo is not the goaltender he was after his successive groin injuries and is now gone.Luongo in his prime here attracted players and kept players here with the odds of winning a cup that much greater.

Additionally,the 'hometown discount' window appears to have a crack in it.Players as recent as Salo and Rome are taking better offers to play elsewhere.

That is a division that is different as Salo was a long time ,venerated Canuck.For every Hamhuis and Garrison there are Weber's and Schultz's.

Finally,Mike has a two year contract and the owners have stated a cup is their goal.Mike will have had six years with arguably the best Canucks team in franchise history to fulfill the task.

#79 Barry_Wilkins

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:17 PM

Luongo has already stated he will not come back to Vancouver.This was broadcast on NW months ago by the 'In Goal Magazine' writer that had a lengthy conversation with Luo just prior to leaving Vancouver.

Will Lou come back to Vancouver to ride the pine? He has already stated he won't and does not have to.He can sit out as long as he wants to.

Luo has stated what his intentions are.It is Gillis that has to create a return for an asset he has blown.


But you've already started the "guess what Luongo will do" game, so I feel it incumbent upon me to continue.

Luongo is a hyper-competitive guy. He hates sitting on the bench. There are countless quotes from him over the years to this effect. He was once POd that he had to sit after having played about 15 games in a row. (AV decided it was best on a back-to-back 2fer on the road, just before he was to go to the all-star game, where he'd be only one or two on the team not to have the all-star break.).

My point here is that if this is how Luongo feels about missing a game or two, let alone ten or twelve, and during repeated stretches of the season, he sure ain't gonna be free and easy about sitting out a good chuck of a season (which also means he'd be forfeiting his multi-million $$ salary).

No, the boring and obvious outcome of this is that Lu sucks it up, and if the season drags on without a trade materializing, he'd probably be wise to expand that list and get to do what he wants to do -- stop pucks for 70 + games a year -- even if it's on a mediocre team. It's not as if the Sunshine State clubs are the only wheel-spinners out there.

#80 nuck nit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:42 PM

Barry ,I am just telling you what Luo stated ,according to the piece on NW.

Believe it or not.Maybe he changes his mind but that was his position.

#81 nuck nit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:44 PM

" Then it's a good thing he only has a cap hit of $4.6M, versus Salo's cap hit of $3.75M. That's only 1.22 Salos, and I think he's worth that. 10 years better age difference for at least similar defensive ability (although Garrison is more physical), and all for just an extra 0.22 of a Salo." Elvis

Hello Elvis.
Salo was paid $2 million and Garrison gets paid $5.5 this year and $6.5 million next year.Real payment.
Gillis was not going to pay Sami $3.75 and that is precisely my point.There is no 1.22 Salo's.
Garrison is not known anywhere at anytime to be a physical d man.Moreover,Sami is arguably as or more offensively talented than Garrison has been or may ever be.
He is the unknown for 5.5/6.5. Salo was known and reliable for 2.

#82 elvis15

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:04 PM

" Then it's a good thing he only has a cap hit of $4.6M, versus Salo's cap hit of $3.75M. That's only 1.22 Salos, and I think he's worth that. 10 years better age difference for at least similar defensive ability (although Garrison is more physical), and all for just an extra 0.22 of a Salo." Elvis

Hello Elvis.
Salo was paid $2 million and Garrison gets paid $5.5 this year and $6.5 million next year.Real payment.
Gillis was not going to pay Sami $3.75 and that is precisely my point.There is no 1.22 Salo's.
Garrison is not known anywhere at anytime to be a physical d man.Moreover,Sami is arguably as or more offensively talented than Garrison has been or may ever be.
He is the unknown for 5.5/6.5. Salo was known and reliable for 2.

I didn't realize you were Aquilini. Ah, that explains it all.

Oh, wait - and you're using last year's salary for Salo to compare to Garrison's salary this year? How about we keep them for the same year instead. Then we get 0.35 Salo's for what Garrison was worth. Cool.

You can't take the numbers you want to make your argument seem true. Take the same numbers from the same year or don't bother.

Even at salary for this year, Garrison's 'value' makes up 1.37 Salos.

Since you don't know what Gillis was willing to pay Salo if he did sign here, we can't say if that is far off or not. What Garrison could have earned elsewhere is also an unknown as well. What we do know is Gillis specifically said it wasn't money that was the issue, it was term as he wanted to do one year deals for as long as Salo felt like playing. Salo wanted longer.

Edited by elvis15, 06 August 2012 - 09:08 PM.

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#83 nuck nit

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:16 PM

Elvis,Gillis was not going to and did not pay Salo what you calculate he is now being paid.

I don't buy the term theory,Elvis,any more than I think Elvis was not a coke head and fried himself.

Salo proved himself.Garrison has proven nothing here.

That was Gillis' lawyer schtick way out so he did not have to suffer again what he brought upon himself with Cody.

Salo 2 million.Garrison 5.5 and 6.5 with a six year no trade.Not cool.

#84 beer&meat

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:28 PM

He can?

We have no 2nd line C until December, we have a cyclops for our 3rd line C, and we have serious questions regarding our scoring.

There is a LOT of work to do. And, again, I'll remind you that we're currently the 2011-12 team, MINUS Rome, MINUS Salo, plus Garrison. That is a team that has gotten worse. Patience is not something that's going to work here, Gillis needs to act.


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#85 elvis15

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:33 PM

Elvis,Gillis was not going to and did not pay Salo what you calculate he is now being paid.

I don't buy the term theory,Elvis,any more than I think Elvis was not a coke head and fried himself.

Salo proved himself.Garrison has proven nothing here.

That was Gillis' lawyer schtick way out so he did not have to suffer again what he brought upon himself with Cody.

Salo 2 million.Garrison 5.5 and 6.5 with a six year no trade.Not cool.

And yet you have absolutely nothing to back that up.

Do you know for sure he wouldn't have given Salo a raise to keep him another year? He's contemplating paying Arnott and Doan, with sizable money for Doan, so if the money's available why wouldn't he at least come closer to the $4M Salo will be making with Tampa (since you're talking salary). Considering Salo was offered $2M (as a 35+ contract remember) after a year where he spent the majority of time injured after his achilles tear, it's likely he took less as a result.

You don't know what he would have made had he stayed so you can't just fall back on $2M and try and compare worth.

You also can't use the argument that Garrison hasn't proven anything here when he hasn't even had the opportunity to play a game. He has proven he can play defensively at least while in Florida, and shown he can put up offence since he hardly lucked into those 16 goals and 33 points. Salo's proven a lot, but he's also at the tail end of his career.

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Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#86 ilduce39

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:45 PM

every off-season it's the same old panic attack...

"(insert gm's name) needs to make a move RIGHT NAO or we'll all die in a pit of snakes" (or whatever)

Just because you're bored doesn't mean Gillis needs to make a trade tomorrow. As for hockey-related reasons to make a move, Gillis already said he's fielding offers. As long as he makes this move before the season it's best he waits to get the biggest return possible. Gillis might even be waiting to see what Doan does to decide whether to move Lou for roster players or not. We don't know.

I repeat, your ADHD is not a legitimate reason for the General Manager of the Vancouver Canucks to fast-track a trade.
T-Bone said:
remind them all of Tbone, remeber me for how I lived, not how I was banned
*sig too big

#87 elvis15

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:56 PM

Posted Image

EDIT: Damn it would have been cool if I'd photoshopped Gillis' face on there...

Edited by elvis15, 06 August 2012 - 09:59 PM.

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Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#88 Drop Em

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:11 PM

And it's not just Tampa. Holtby, Reimer, Theodore/Clemmenson, Brodeur (old), Bobrovsky/Mason, Anderson, Whoever NYI goalie is, Crawford, are all slated to be their team's starters this year. Look at that damn list, at least a few of them are going to flop. A bunch of those teams (Chicago, Tampa, Toronto, Washington, New Jersey) have tons of pressure to make the playoffs, "riding it out" for a year with a bad goalie and getting a nice draft pick isn't an option. What happens when several of these teams all realize they need a proven starter a few weeks into the season? They come running to Gillis, because he holds the keys to the only available starter in the league. BIDDING WAR.It's just simple supply and demand, currently the supply is 1 and the demand is 0; if he waits until the season starts the supply will still be 1, but the demand will likely be 3 or 4.

Gillis knows what he's doing here, and when it pays off, he's going to get some big time credit.


And out of all of those goalies and teams that you mentioned, exactly how many of them do you think that Luongo will be willing to waive his no trade clause to go too? Those teams may or may not have goalie issues but it doesn't mean that Luongo will accept a trade to any of those places.

#89 Drop Em

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:44 PM

I've been pretty outspoken and critical of Gillis because I think that he's very arrogant and condescending and he talks out of both sides of his mouth. Not to mention, that he hasn't done many of the things that he said that he was going to do going into this offseason. But, if he's able to get either a Bjugstad or Gudbrandson out of Florida for Luongo, then I will have to give him some credit.

Given the fact that everyone knows that Luongo has to be dealt, it doesn't put Gillis in an easy position. Although Luongo can get a bubble team into the playoffs, he's definitely not a top tier goalie anymore like someone in a previous post mentioned. If you're a top tier goalie and are getting paid accordingly like he is, then you better out perform your goalie counterparts in the playoffs, and in the past two seasons, Luongo has not been the better goalie in any of the series. Regular season is one thing, but to me, if you're a top tier guy, then the post season is where you make your money. He's proven over the last couple of years that he's not going to be able to win you a playoff series by himself like some other goalies are able too. Whether that's age or what, it's a fact. He's been the second best goalie in every series for the last two years and knowing that, if Gillis can somehow flip him and that contract into a Bjugstad or Gudbrandson(preferably), then he'll be getting away with highway robbery in my opinion.

#90 TowelPower12

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:48 PM

MG's strategy is a good one but lui has to be gone by training camp.... all there is to it.


No he doesn't have to be and no that's not all there is to it. Gillis knows what he's doing here




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