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Texas executes mentally impaired inmate.


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#61 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:00 PM

Not if you have a law like Texas, where if there are 3 or more credible eye witnesses and over welming scientic proof then there is no 15 year appeals process, you go straight to the front of the line.

Like Ron White says
"I'm from Texas and in Texas we have the death penalty and we use it. That's right, if you come to Texas and kill somebody, we will kill you back. That's our policy. Right now there's a bill in the Texas legislature that would speed up the execution process of those convicted of a heinous crime with more than three credible witnesses. If more than three people saw you do what you did you don't sit on death row for 15 years Jack, you go straight to the front of the line. Other states are trying to abolish the death penalty. My state's puttin in an express lane"

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#62 Jägermeister

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:04 PM

Pretty sure most sociopaths aren't exactly in a proper state of mind either.
Should we not punish them too?

Edited by Jagermeister, 08 August 2012 - 12:19 PM.

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#63 KelownaCanucksFan

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:05 PM

Are you suggesting that more than one innocent citizen being put to death wrongly, by their gov't, is not enough for you to not want any citizen to be put at risk to being put to death wrongly?


No, stuff happens we will never have a perfect system, but if I have to chose between spending over $100000 a year for a criminal or uping my parents cpp, my nephews getting better daycare, healthcare etc im choosing the latter.
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#64 Ovech Trick

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:07 PM

All the death penalty does is fullfill some primitive sense of revenge.
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#65 KelownaCanucksFan

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:14 PM

Since 1973, 140 people have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence.

http://deathpenaltyi...d-death-penalty


And there have been 1303 executions in that same time frame, 1 in 10. There is never going to be a perfect system, but given the advances in technology and scientific advancements those numbers are flawed, 4 out of the 140 released were convicted after 2000 (Under 1%), the majority being convicted in the 70 & 80's before DNA and other scientific advancements.

http://deathpenaltyi...freed-death-row
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#66 Special Ed

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:15 PM

All the death penalty does is fullfill some primitive sense of revenge.


Revenge is selfish. However to allow one the quality of life that they took from another is unfair. And taking a chance that the killer won't kill again but does. When you could have prevented it. That's just stupid. When dogs attack people they are deemed a risk and put down. I feel the exact same way about when a person kills.

Edited by Special Ed, 08 August 2012 - 12:16 PM.

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#67 Gran Turismo

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:15 PM

Pretty sure most psychopaths aren't exactly in a proper state of mind either.
Should we not punish them too?


Psychopathy is more of a personality disorder than a mental disorder. Features like lack of empathy, sense of grandeur, impulsivity, irresponsibility etc. They're in a proper enough state of mind to understand what they are doing, so yes they should be punished if they do indeed do something wrong. However, not all psychopaths commit crimes. Some people's bosses on here could be classified as psychopaths :blink:

Psychotics (or psychosis) is probably what you were referring to. These guys hallucinate and hear sounds.
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#68 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:19 PM

Because putting them down will bring the person they killed back. It'll make us feel good too, I bet.


Incarceration doesnt bring anyone back either, no one can undo their wrongs.

Punitive measures exist to make people repay their debt to society in a manner that is deemed appropriate by the society they live in.
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#69 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:20 PM

Revenge is selfish. However to allow one the quality of life that they took from another is unfair. And taking a chance that the killer won't kill again but does. When you could have prevented it. That's just stupid. When dogs attack people they are deemed a risk and put down. I feel the exact same way about when a person kills.


I'd say the quality of life of the perpetrator is severely diminished. You should say "to allow the ability to breath that they took from another is unfair", and how eye-for-an-eye of you.
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#70 Jägermeister

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:21 PM

Psychopathy is more of a personality disorder than a mental disorder. Features like lack of empathy, sense of grandeur, impulsivity, irresponsibility etc. They're in a proper enough state of mind to understand what they are doing, so yes they should be punished if they do indeed do something wrong. However, not all psychopaths commit crimes. Some people's bosses on here could be classified as psychopaths :blink:

Psychotics (or psychosis) is probably what you were referring to. These guys hallucinate and hear sounds.


I was thinking of sociopath.
And even in the case of Psychopaths, they aren't exactly at a full understanding of their actions since they practically lack any sense of morals, so they often fail to see what they are doing as wrong.

Edited by Jagermeister, 08 August 2012 - 12:24 PM.

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#71 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:25 PM

Incarceration doesnt bring anyone back either, no one can undo their wrongs.

Punitive measures exist to make people repay their debt to society in a manner that is deemed appropriate by the society they live in.


I agree, but I think it's worthwhile to attract attention to that fact when the topic concerns revenge-motivated punitive measures. Especially since undoing state sanctioned murder is just as impossible.
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#72 Slaytanic Wehrmacht

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:27 PM

I really think in this case the inmate's IQ is irrelevant...after all, in the early part of the 1900's, they used to throw people into a mental hospital for being a "genius". But, the point I think matters most, is the guy killed someone, knew exactly what he was doing, and all this was in my view was a last ditch effort by a legal counsel to save him from the death penalty. They don't stay an execution because an inmate has an abnormally high IQ, so they shouldn't make an exception for one who has an abnormally low one.
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#73 JLumme

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:41 PM

Sorry if I don't spend more than two minutes posting on a hockey forum, to please you.


So you're not putting your all into this argument? Certainly explains how weak your positions are.
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#74 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:45 PM

No, stuff happens we will never have a perfect system, but if I have to chose between spending over $100000 a year for a criminal or uping my parents cpp, my nephews getting better daycare, healthcare etc im choosing the latter.


What makes you think that your parents cpp, nephews daycare, healthcare would improve because of $100,000 a year?

And what about the families of the person who is executed wrongly? Aren't the considerations for them just as important or moreso? What if the person being wrongly arrested, charged, prosecuted and executed was the sole bread winner?

What if 'stuff' happened to one of your family members?
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#75 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:50 PM

Revenge is selfish. However to allow one the quality of life that they took from another is unfair. And taking a chance that the killer won't kill again but does. When you could have prevented it. That's just stupid. When dogs attack people they are deemed a risk and put down. I feel the exact same way about when a person kills.


Are you suggesting that people are the same as dogs when it comes to being a recurrent risk?

And is it the dog's fault for biting people or their owners?

Who are the owners in your metaphorical scenario? What punishment will they receive?
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#76 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:52 PM

I agree, but I think it's worthwhile to attract attention to that fact when the topic concerns revenge-motivated punitive measures. Especially since undoing state sanctioned murder is just as impossible.


I think one of the main arguments is that it provides closure for the families of the victims, but Ive heard plenty of cases to the contrary.

The whole "pound of flesh" idea is very distasteful to many, and I can understand that. It is pretty archaic.
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#77 Special Ed

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:15 PM

Are you suggesting that people are the same as dogs when it comes to being a recurrent risk?

And is it the dog's fault for biting people or their owners?

Who are the owners in your metaphorical scenario? What punishment will they receive?


I was outlining the similarities between a dog attack and when a mentally challenged human attacks. Both are not aware of what they are doing as being wrong. However they still pose a threat and because they are unaware, even more so. If they can't understand what they did and if it was wrong is there not a recurrent risk?

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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

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#78 Special Ed

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:30 PM

So you're not putting your all into this argument? Certainly explains how weak your positions are.


This is a casual form of entertainment to me. I'm not interested in wasting a ton of time and effort on something that means 0 at the end of the day. I do all my work where it matters. Now that doesn't mean I look down upon someone who likes to engage here, in more serious debates. However with the amount of intelligence that's self proclaimed here over and over, people can't even seem to understand the environment in which they are posting. That alone is quite comical when you have one old bitter man boasting and beating the drums over a kid posting on his favorite hockey teams website.

What's not intelligent is a lack of understanding and arrogance... Well that's one of the least intelligent qualities to me.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#79 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:33 PM

I was outlining the similarities between a dog attack and when a mentally challenged human attacks. Both are not aware of what they are doing as being wrong. However they still pose a threat and because they are unaware, even more so. If they can't understand what they did and if it was wrong is there not a recurrent risk?


So if a child does harm to someone as a result of their underdeveloped mental abilities, should they also be subjected to the same harm they caused another because they could potentially still pose a risk?
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#80 dajusta

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:35 PM

I was outlining the similarities between a dog attack and when a mentally challenged human attacks. Both are not aware of what they are doing as being wrong. However they still pose a threat and because they are unaware, even more so. If they can't understand what they did and if it was wrong is there not a recurrent risk?


Humans and dogs are not the same, not by any government standard.

I understand how the lines can be blurred in situations of euthanasia and animal rights, but by no means is there ever a sound argument that is backed by viewing humans are similar to animals.

What Sharpshooter (I think) is getting at, is exactly this difference. Just because there may be a recurrent risk of the mentally incapable man in question, we shouldn't have the right to treat them like a recurrent violent animal. I believe the best example was comparing this man to a child who is also incapable of knowing right or wrong.

Mind you, that I say this in the light that the perpetrator is 100% telling the truth about his condition. If it was all a scheme to avoid capital punsihment, then that is another case. I for one am still against capital punishment, so my response will be as such to rehabilitate or have life without parole.

Edited by dajusta, 08 August 2012 - 01:37 PM.

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#81 Special Ed

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:51 PM

So if a child does harm to someone as a result of their underdeveloped mental abilities, should they also be subjected to the same harm they caused another because they could potentially still pose a risk?


Really? A child? In the most likely senario a child is unable to actually harm someone to begin with. What age group are you referring to here because that sounds a little rediculous to me. And what harm would the child actually be capable of?
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#82 gurn

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:00 PM

"With DNA testing nowdays a"

All dna testing does is prove someone's dna is at the crime scene.
This can be planted by anyone that has used my washroom and pulls hair off of my hair brush and saves it for just that reason.
also eye witnesses are not as reliable as most think.
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#83 Special Ed

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:05 PM

Humans and dogs are not the same, not by any government standard.

I understand how the lines can be blurred in situations of euthanasia and animal rights, but by no means is there ever a sound argument that is backed by viewing humans are similar to animals.

What Sharpshooter (I think) is getting at, is exactly this difference. Just because there may be a recurrent risk of the mentally incapable man in question, we shouldn't have the right to treat them like a recurrent violent animal. I believe the best example was comparing this man to a child who is also incapable of knowing right or wrong.

Mind you, that I say this in the light that the perpetrator is 100% telling the truth about his condition. If it was all a scheme to avoid capital punsihment, then that is another case. I for one am still against capital punishment, so my response will be as such to rehabilitate or have life without parole.


Humans are animals. Some of us violent. Others murderous. Propping up these kinds of sick individuals seems like an attempt to try and portray that which we are not. Because we are better than animals yes? What makes us so much better than animals? If I take away everything you have and leave you in the forest. What can you really do?
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#84 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:14 PM

Really? A child? In the most likely senario a child is unable to actually harm someone to begin with. What age group are you referring to here because that sounds a little rediculous to me. And what harm would the child actually be capable of?


Yep a child....you know, with the same mental and intellectual qualities that this person who was executed had the equivalency of, or dogs.

A child can pull the trigger of a gun just as easily as an adult killing their parent or sibling. There are ample news reports as evidence of such events.

So, should we kill them in turn too?
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#85 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:15 PM

Humans and dogs are not the same, not by any government standard.

I understand how the lines can be blurred in situations of euthanasia and animal rights, but by no means is there ever a sound argument that is backed by viewing humans are similar to animals.

What Sharpshooter (I think) is getting at, is exactly this difference. Just because there may be a recurrent risk of the mentally incapable man in question, we shouldn't have the right to treat them like a recurrent violent animal. I believe the best example was comparing this man to a child who is also incapable of knowing right or wrong.

Mind you, that I say this in the light that the perpetrator is 100% telling the truth about his condition. If it was all a scheme to avoid capital punsihment, then that is another case. I for one am still against capital punishment, so my response will be as such to rehabilitate or have life without parole.


Please don't help him.....let's see if our resident 'lawyer' can put his 'formidable' critical thought and analysis prowess to some use.
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#86 Special Ed

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:30 PM

Yep a child....you know, with the same mental and intellectual qualities that this person who was executed had the equivalency of, or dogs.

A child can pull the trigger of a gun just as easily as an adult killing their parent or sibling. There are ample news reports as evidence of such events.

So, should we kill them in turn too?


If you're going to mention it may as well provide your 'ample' new reports as evidence. In comparison to this case of course. I'm curious to see the similarities you speak of.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#87 Special Ed

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:37 PM

Please don't help him.....let's see if our resident 'lawyer' can put his 'formidable' critical thought and analysis prowess to some use.


You keep trying to bring my occupation into this as mockery. I'm sure that if you had the guts to mention yours I could have a few laughs as well. But then again so many insults over the Internet would undoubtably be silenced in person. I love having real conversations in person where people are too afraid to say what's really on their mind. Best to keep it behind the keyboard.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#88 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:50 PM

Eugenics: Compulsory Sterilization in 50 American States

American eugenicsrefers inter alia tocompulsory sterilization laws adopted by over 30 states that led to more than 60,000 sterilizations of disabled individuals. Many of these individuals were sterilized because of a disability: they were mentally disabled or ill, or belonged tosocially disadvantaged groups living on the margins of society. American eugenic laws and practices implemented in the first decades of the twentieth century influenced the much larger National Socialist compulsory sterilization program, which between 1934 and 1945 led to approximately 350,000 compulsory sterilizations and was a stepping stone to the Holocaust. Even after the details of the Nazi sterilization program (as well as its role as a precursor to the "Euthanasia" murders) became more widely known after World War II (and which the New York Times had reported on extensively and in great detail even before its implementation in 1934), sterilizations in some American states did not stop. Some states continued to sterilize residents into the 1970s.
While Germany has taken important steps to commemorate the horrors of its past, including compulsory sterilization (however belatedly), the United States arguably has not when it comes to eugenics. For some states, there still is a paucity of reliable studies that show how and where sterilizations occurred. Hospitals, asylums, and other places where sterilizations were performed have so far typically chosen not to document that aspect of their history. Moreover, until now there has never been a website providing an easily accessible overview of American eugenics for all American states.
This site provides such an overview. For each state for which information is available (see below), there is a short account of the number of victims(based on a variety of data sources), the known period during which sterilizations occurred, the temporal pattern of sterilizations and rate of sterilization, thepassage of law(s), groups indentified in the law, theprescribedprocess of the law, precipitating factorsand processes that led up a state’s sterilization program, the groups targeted and victimized,other restrictions placed on those identified in the law or with disabilities in general, major proponents of state eugenic sterilization, “feeder institutions” and institutions where sterilizations were performed, andoppositionto sterilization. A short bibliographyis also provided.
While this research project was initially intended to give short accounts for each state, it quickly moved beyond this goal. For those states for which detailed monograph-length studies are availabe, it merely summarizes existing scholarship, but for other states for which such information is not readily available, it establishes the core parameters within which a state's eugenic sterilizations were carried out. As part of this research the current state of the facilities where sterilizations occurred or that served as feeder institutions is addressed.
This research brought into relief one particular piece of information that might not be known even to the specialists in the field. In Nazi Germany, during the peak years of sterilization between 1934 and 1939, approximately 75-80 sterilizations occurred per year per 100,000 residents. In Delaware, during the peak period of sterilizations (late 1920s to late 1930s), the rate was 18, about one fourth to one fifth of Germany's during its peak period, or half of Bavaria’s in 1936.[1] While the difference in the sterilization rate for a totalitarian regime with a federal sterilization law soon to commit mass murder on a historically unprecedented scale and a democratically governed state in a democratic nation remains significant,[2]it is much smaller than one might perhaps expect.
Contributions to this project were made by sophomore honors students at the University of Vermont as part of an Honors College course on Disability as Deviance. These students wrote up the primary accounts, which were then edited and amended by Lutz Kaelber, Associate Professor of Sociology, University of Vermont, who is solely responsible for its contents and any errors or omissions. Research that went into this project was supported in parts by grants of the College of Arts and Science’s Dean’s Office and the Center for Teaching and Learning, and by funds of the University of Vermont's Honors College.


Update 2011: A new group of studentsin the Honors College at the University of Vermont, together with students in a senior-level sociology course, took on the project of revising and updating all existing states' webpages. This project was commenced in the fall of 2010 and concluded in the spring of 2011. The literature under consideration was expanded to include many undergraduate, master's, and doctoral theses at various institutions, as well as the most recent available scholarly literature and journalistic reports. Web-based information was also updated.
Note: Not addressed here is the controversial topic of sterilizations of Native Americansin the 1970s, which by some accounts led to sterilization rates of more than 25% among wome of child-bearing age. A student in my Independent Study course, wrote a paper on this topic (here).

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shoot them , sterilise them , land of the free home of the redkneck .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#89 vancanfan

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:55 PM

So our system of punishment and rehabilitation should be built around vengeance and making the victim's family feel better?


You conveniently ignored his answer.

IT WOULD PREVENT HIM FROM KILLING AGAIN, IN PRISON, ON THE STREET, WHEREVER.
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#90 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:17 PM

You keep trying to bring my occupation into this as mockery. I'm sure that if you had the guts to mention yours I could have a few laughs as well. But then again so many insults over the Internet would undoubtably be silenced in person. I love having real conversations in person where people are too afraid to say what's really on their mind. Best to keep it behind the keyboard.


i am a flower farmer part of my job involves shovelling crap . i am working towards sitting the mensa test , when last measured my IQ was 161 , whats yours ?

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 08 August 2012 - 03:18 PM.

  • 1

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.





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