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#31 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:18 AM

Or rather, your perception of it is wrong. We love one another for the sake of Allah - that's the brotherhood. Not our cultures and not our personalities. Hajj would be a great example, and there is a sea of beautiful accounts relating to the 'brotherhood' evident.


Oh yeah, Sunnis totally love their Shia brothers....and it's totally a reciprocal 'love'. :rolleyes:
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#32 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:20 AM

That's the idea, but there's a ton of sectarian violence, both historical and modern day, which doesn't exactly speak to widespread love of one another for the sake of Allah. Not that infighting is unique to Islam, but it's far from immune to it.

This is something I'll acknowledge as well. I just wouldn't go so far to say the idea of the ummah is a myth. though it makes no difference to me what opinion you side with in this regard.

Edited by Super19, 11 August 2012 - 12:20 AM.

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#33 لني

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:21 AM

I think white power groups are probably a good analogy. They're also a group with a dangerous ideology and a potential to cause harm, but hardly representative of the population of a whole.

I find the idea of a united ummah to be a myth as well. There's a wide spectrum of belief and culture across the Muslim world, just as there is for every other major religion.


They arent representative as the population as a whole per se.

However the idea rightful muslim lands extent from andalusia spain to south east asia gets zero denial from muslims even though islam like other religions was spread by the sword. Its seen as fact amonst a majority.

It would be akin to white power groups back in the day who may have had popular tacit support or even formal support amongst an ignorant population who believed "white is right" but themselves wouldnt engage in pursuing that themselves.

Which is why these atrocities in burma turn into a "our brothers are being persecuted" argument.
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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#34 لني

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:24 AM

Or rather, your perception of it is wrong. We love one another for the sake of Allah - that's the brotherhood. Not our cultures and not our personalities. Hajj would be a great example, and there is a sea of beautiful accounts relating to the 'brotherhood' evident.


Ah no.

Sufis get the least love of muslims and sadly its hate from other muslims.

They are persecuted in pakistan as well ad iran.
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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#35 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:29 AM

High birth rates driving an increase in population in third world countries is hardly a positive for the Muslim world, or anything to be worried about as far as "world domination" goes. Countries in poor economic shape usually tend to have high birth rates, regardless of religion. As the Muslim world continues to modernize, that number will continue to drop.


The birth rate between non-muslims and muslims was in Europe. Hardly a 'poor economic zone'.

Also, the muslim population in the U.S. is more than doubling as well, and will continue to increase rapidly.


Globally, the Muslim population is forecast to grow at about twice the rate of the non-Muslim population over the next two decades – an average annual growth rate of 1.5% for Muslims, compared with 0.7% for non-Muslims. If current trends continue, Muslims will make up 26.4% of the world’s total projected population of 8.3 billion in 2030, up from 23.4% of the estimated 2010 world population of 6.9 billion.

http://www.pewforum....Population.aspx



Population projections by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life estimate that the number of Muslims in the U.S will more than double over the next two decades, rising from 2.6 million in 2010 to 6.2 million in 2030, and growing as a share from 0.8% of the total population to 1.7%. The growth in population is in large part due to immigration and higher-than-average fertility among Muslims.

http://pewresearch.o.../?NumberID=1205


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#36 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:33 AM

Oh yeah, Sunnis totally love their Shia brothers....and it's totally a reciprocal 'love'. :rolleyes:

U mad I say my salaams and shake hands and love my 'shia' (Muslim) friend for the sake of Allah?
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#37 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:34 AM

The birth rate between non-muslims and muslims was in Europe. Hardly a 'poor economic zone'.

Also, the muslim population in the U.S. is more than doubling as well, and will continue to increase rapidly.

The graph plotted population growth rate, not birth rate, no? Immigration from countries with high birth rates is a big factor in that.
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#38 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:35 AM

U mad I say my salaams and shake hands and love my 'shia' (Muslim) friend for the sake of Allah?


Why would I be mad?? :blink:

I know others who will kill your Shia friend for Allah. That's the point.
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#39 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:40 AM

The graph plotted population growth rate, not birth rate, no? Immigration from countries with high birth rates is a big factor in that.


Fair enough. In the subsequents posts I indicate a source that discusses birth rates and not only population rates..

The point isn't that they immigrate more than anyone....it's that they reproduce at a higher rate than others on average.
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#40 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:42 AM

Why would I be mad?? :blink:

I know others who will kill your Shia friend for Allah. That's the point.

And you wouldn't agree with it anymore than Islam wouldn't.
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#41 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:42 AM

They arent representative as the population as a whole per se.

However the idea rightful muslim lands extent from andalusia spain to south east asia gets zero denial from muslims even though islam like other religions was spread by the sword. Its seen as fact amonst a majority.

It would be akin to white power groups back in the day who may have had popular tacit support or even formal support amongst an ignorant population who believed "white is right" but themselves wouldnt engage in pursuing that themselves.

Which is why these atrocities in burma turn into a "our brothers are being persecuted" argument.

Again, I haven't seen that as a very prominent position, although what I've seen is obviously based entirely on English-speaking Muslims, seeing as I can't read Arabic, Urdu, Persian, Bahasa Indonesia, etc.
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#42 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:44 AM

Which country has the most converts? In the West, Islam might be at the top, but worldwide Christianity seems to be raking in the converts.
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#43 لني

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:47 AM

Again, I haven't seen that as a very prominent position, although what I've seen is obviously based entirely on English-speaking Muslims, seeing as I can't read Arabic, Urdu, Persian, Bahasa Indonesia, etc.


You will see it discussed online. If you spend significant time in the region you will also see it. You dont really need to speak arabic et al to pick up on it.

Its not like your average muslim comes out and says "up the caliphate". Anymore than your average ignorant white person comes out and says "white is right".

Somethings you will not get to understand from reading wikipedia et al or talking to your muslim friends.

Edited by لني, 11 August 2012 - 12:48 AM.

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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#44 لني

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:51 AM

Which country has the most converts? In the West, Islam might be at the top, but worldwide Christianity seems to be raking in the converts.


Also which country and which religion has the most leaving said religion?


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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#45 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:53 AM

Also which country and which religion has the most leaving said religion?

Apparently it's Malaysia. It's seeing it's Muslim population convert to Christianity.
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#46 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:57 AM

And you wouldn't agree with it anymore than Islam wouldn't.


Which version of Islam? The Sunni's version or the Shiites version?
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#47 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:00 AM

Fair enough. In the subsequents posts I indicate a source that discusses birth rates and not only population rates..

The point isn't that they immigrate more than anyone....it's that they reproduce at a higher rate than others on average.

The links you provided corroborated what I was saying, that the population boom is due to a high birth rate in countries with a poor economic situation, and that this high birth rate is dipping towards the non-Muslim number. The precipitous increase will level off considerably in the next few decades.
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#48 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:00 AM

Which version of Islam? The Sunni's version or the Shiites version?

Differences aside, both don't tell to murder each other like that.
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#49 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:01 AM

Which country has the most converts? In the West, Islam might be at the top, but worldwide Christianity seems to be raking in the converts.

That'd be tough to get an accurate source on, I'd imagine. Groups responsible for getting converts love to inflate numbers. The fact that the vast majority of converts leave their given religion after a few years complicates things a lot, too.

Which version of Islam? The Sunni's version or the Shiites version?

Not to mention the myriad of views within each of the two major sects.

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 11 August 2012 - 01:03 AM.

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#50 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:07 AM

That'd be tough to get an accurate source on, I'd imagine. Groups responsible for getting converts love to inflate numbers. The fact that the vast majority of converts leave their given religion after a few years complicates things a lot, too.

That's true. In London Muslims and Christians are taking the streets and spreading their religion to those interested.
Oh wait, not sure about "vast majority of converts leave their given religion". Literally, all the converts I know have stuck with Islam. It's always a concern though.

Not to mention the myriad of views within each of the two major sects.

(Sunni is pretty much by far the biggest one.)
And the myriad of views within Sunni Islam are cool - I like it. Makes things interesting and colourful, and the fact that more than one opinion on matters are accepted make it cool and a blessing.

Edited by Super19, 11 August 2012 - 01:08 AM.

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#51 لني

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:14 AM

Apparently it's Malaysia. It's seeing it's Muslim population convert to Christianity.


What are the figures for said jumping ship? I find it hard to believe that malaysia is leading the way for people leaving one religion for another or for nonreligion.

Especially considering, off the top of my head, the laws in malaysia regarding non muslims promoting their religion plus the myriad of other laws and rules set forth by islam itself.

My guess is a western secular country would be leading the way.

So do you have the number for muslims embracing xtianity in malaysia?
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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#52 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:18 AM

The links you provided corroborated what I was saying, that the population boom is due to a high birth rate in countries with a poor economic situation, and that this high birth rate is dipping towards the non-Muslim number. The precipitous increase will level off considerably in the next few decades.


The birthrate in Qatar is higher than the world average....it's also a muslim country.
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#53 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:20 AM

Differences aside, both don't tell to murder each other like that.


So they're not killing each other for religious reasons?
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#54 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:20 AM

That's true. In London Muslims and Christians are taking the streets and spreading their religion to those interested.
Oh wait, not sure about "vast majority of converts leave their given religion". Literally, all the converts I know have stuck with Islam. It's always a concern though.

The number I keep getting off Muslim websites is 75% of converts in the US leave Islam within a few years. It's supposedly from research done by a sociologist named Ilyas Ba-Yunus, but I can't find the primary source for that statistic. If accurate, I'd imagine that number would be similar for other religions.

(Sunni is pretty much by far the biggest one.)
And the myriad of views within Sunni Islam are cool - I like it. Makes things interesting and colourful, and the fact that more than one opinion on matters are accepted make it cool and a blessing.

I'd agree that a diversity of views is generally a good thing.
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#55 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:21 AM

What are the figures for said jumping ship? I find it hard to believe that malaysia is leading the way for people leaving one religion for another or for nonreligion.

Especially considering, off the top of my head, the laws in malaysia regarding non muslims promoting their religion plus the myriad of other laws and rules set forth by islam itself.

My guess is a western secular country would be leading the way.

So do you have the number for muslims embracing xtianity in malaysia?

Oh damndamndamn. It was Indonesia* my bad! -.- that would probably make more sense than malaysia.

Figures are most likely inflated as VICF5551 said, but from the Save Maryam campaign, they are saying 2million muslims -> ctianity every year.

Edited by Super19, 11 August 2012 - 01:23 AM.

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#56 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:25 AM

So they're not killing each other for religious reasons?

They're not being Islamic. It's a sin to murder innocent people. To me, that's the bottom line.
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#57 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:28 AM

The birthrate in Qatar is higher than the world average....it's also a muslim country.

The numbers I have from Wiki are 15.69 births per 1000 people for Qatar (2008), compared to 19.95 per 1000 for the rest of the world (2009). I'm not sure what a sample size of one would prove even if Qatar did have a higher than average number, though. There are a ton of confounding variables besides just GDP (which I assume you were getting at in picking Qatar), and religion.
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#58 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:32 AM

Oh damndamndamn. It was Indonesia* my bad! -.- that would probably make more sense than malaysia.

Figures are most likely inflated as VICF5551 said, but from the Save Maryam campaign, they are saying 2million muslims -> ctianity every year.

Yeah, I raised my eyebrows with Malaysia having a large number of Christian converts. I believe Christians aren't allowed to proselytize there and apostasy from Islam is illegal. Indonesia makes much more sense.
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#59 لني

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:33 AM

Oh damndamndamn. It was Indonesia* my bad! -.- that would probably make more sense than malaysia.

Figures are most likely inflated as VICF5551 said, but from the Save Maryam campaign, they are saying 2million muslims -> ctianity every year.


And save maryam is a pro islam campaign in which donations will come piling in if islam is "threatened".

Maybe it just means christianity is a better religion. I mean thats whats thought and said when someone convert to islam no?

Interesting discussion on the topic. I particularly like the "its for economic reasons argument" as if others such as the bosniaks didnt convert to islam for economic reasons.

www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?334219-Save-Maryam-Millions-of-Indonesians-leaving-Islam


Edited by لني, 11 August 2012 - 01:34 AM.

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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#60 لني

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:36 AM

Yeah, I raised my eyebrows with Malaysia having a large number of Christian converts. I believe Christians aren't allowed to proselytize there and apostasy from Islam is illegal. Indonesia makes much more sense.


Islam has a host of rules that make it unpalatable to leave the religion and to ensure its purity. In its strictest interpretations this means the ultimate price for those who disobey.
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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.





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