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#61 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:41 AM

The numbers I have from Wiki are 15.69 births per 1000 people for Qatar (2008), compared to 19.95 per 1000 for the rest of the world (2009). I'm not sure what a sample size of one would prove even if Qatar did have a higher than average number, though. There are a ton of confounding variables besides just GDP (which I assume you were getting at in picking Qatar), and religion.


My point was there were indeed many factors, though the one I was pointing out was religious and you were pointing out impoverished climate zones. There's enough evidence to support both. In fact, i believe it's fair to say that the poorer a region the more religious people seem to be.
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#62 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:42 AM

Islam has a host of rules that make it unpalatable to leave the religion and to ensure its purity. In its strictest interpretations this means the ultimate price for those who disobey.

S19 and I have butted heads on that issue in the past. As a staunch supporter of freedom of religion and freedom from religion, I strongly oppose all of the interpretations of sharia I've ever seen. Of course, with the diversity of ideals in Islam I mentioned earlier, there are also Muslim secularists who don't support sharia law.
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#63 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:48 AM

My point was there were indeed many factors, though the one I was pointing out was religious and you were pointing out impoverished climate zones. There's enough evidence to support both. In fact, i believe it's fair to say that the poorer a region the more religious people seem to be.

I agree with you there. Religiosity is definitely positively correlated with poorer economic situations.
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#64 لني

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:58 AM

S19 and I have butted heads on that issue in the past. As a staunch supporter of freedom of religion and freedom from religion, I strongly oppose all of the interpretations of sharia I've ever seen. Of course, with the diversity of ideals in Islam I mentioned earlier, there are also Muslim secularists who don't support sharia law.


Forget sharia. Its also the social stigmas.

Secularist are a minority in islam.
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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#65 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:04 AM

Forget sharia. Its also the social stigmas.

Secularist are a minority in islam.

Definitely. It's a shame what many ex-Muslims have to put up with, being completely disowned by their family and friends for their beliefs.

I know, but I figured I should point it out anyways. I hope it's a group that gains more prominence in majority Muslim societies in the coming years.
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#66 DarthNinja

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 03:22 AM

Leave it to the usual Islamophobe suspects to scoff at Muslims being massacred as a 'cheap attempt at victimhood' against a group that has been often declared as the most persecuted people in Asia and perhaps even the world (and try to derail the thread into another self-proclaimed 'Islam beating'). This of course simply reflects the egotistical hatred and closed-mindedness that such individuals are plagued with while comically claiming to be 'humanists' and taking up the fight for 'humanity'.

An extremist atheist 'questions sources and the source's sources' then goes on to use the Christian Science Monitor as his own source to counter? Interesting...especially given his history of 'love' for Christians and their religion.

Such individuals, unfortunately, are blinded by their own over-inflated egos, hatred, ideology and preachers (while ironically making these precise claims against others).

I suppose since their preachers have brainwashed them into believing that Buddhists are 'peaceful and loving' and 'never violent' this would be the natural course of action. Such a shame.

Forget about the persecution and massacres of Muslims because that's not getting any real 'airtime'...let's instead be 'humanists' and talk about 'Sunni VS. Shiite'.

Genocide Emergency: Western Myanmar, Rakhine State: The Rohingya

Genocide Watch is issuing a Genocide Emergency Alert for the Rohingya of Myanmar

http://www.genocidew...rg/myanmar.html

Edited by DarthNinja_S19Blade, 11 August 2012 - 03:25 AM.

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#67 DarthNinja

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 03:34 AM

^ That AJ artice doesn't seem to be making the case that the persecution is a religious one.

It actually seems to be a much more measured one that the initial offering of tripe in the OP.


Why aren't they out protesting the treatment of the muslim women in Pakistan? Or in Saudi Arabia? Or the way the non-religious are treated in Indonesia??


Speaking of tripe...

Edited by DarthNinja_S19Blade, 11 August 2012 - 04:08 AM.

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"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

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"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#68 DarthNinja

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 04:08 AM

And save maryam is a pro islam campaign in which donations will come piling in if islam is "threatened".

Maybe it just means christianity is a better religion. I mean thats whats thought and said when someone convert to islam no?

Interesting discussion on the topic. I particularly like the "its for economic reasons argument" as if others such as the bosniaks didnt convert to islam for economic reasons.

www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?334219-Save-Maryam-Millions-of-Indonesians-leaving-Islam


Yes Lonny, we're also familiar with your unique and 'enlightened' approach. Though we've yet to hear you really complain about how the Muslim world treats Western business men. ;)

I have family in Indonesia and was there just a few months ago. It is true that Muslims are leaving Islam, however; there are several specific reasons for this:

1. Christian missionaries present an 'Islamified' version of Christianity to Muslims there. Like Muslims, they hold their religious congregations on Fridays instead of Sundays, build churches that look like Mosques and heavily incorporate Islamic terms, ideas and concepts into their propagation, prayers at specific times during the day etc. Essentially, they deceive Muslims into believing that Christianity is merely 'another version' of Islam.

2. They focus for the most part on individuals who are either non-religious or uneducated, often in the poorest areas.

3. They dress like Muslims and some missionaries go so far as to purposely behave lewdly and inappropriately while dressed as Muslims in order to show that 'Muslims are bad' (there were cases of religious Muslims confronting such individuals only to find the disguised 'Muslims' wearing necklaces with crosses).

4. I had the opportunity to speak with former Christian missionary who reverted to Islam; Steve Rockwell, and he told me that the most common tactic in Indonesia was 'if you want the bowl of rice, you must take Jesus with it'.

On the other hand, lectures by former Priests like Yusuf Estes leads to 100's and even 1000+ individuals in their audiences to revert to Islam at once after merely propagating the religion in the purest sense.
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"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

rsz_theylive.jpg 11477626583_2368927097.jpg  7649118508_ce3e8a74a1_o.jpg

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#69 لني

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 04:27 AM

Yes Lonny, we're also familiar with your unique and 'enlightened' approach. Though we've yet to hear you really complain about how the Muslim world treats Western business men. ;)

I have family in Indonesia and was there just a few months ago. It is true that Muslims are leaving Islam, however; there are several specific reasons for this:

1. Christian missionaries present an 'Islamified' version of Christianity to Muslims there. Like Muslims, they hold their religious congregations on Fridays instead of Sundays, build churches that look like Mosques and heavily incorporate Islamic terms, ideas and concepts into their propagation, prayers at specific times during the day etc. Essentially, they deceive Muslims into believing that Christianity is merely 'another version' of Islam.

2. They focus for the most part on individuals who are either non-religious or uneducated, often in the poorest areas.

3. They dress like Muslims and some missionaries go so far as to purposely behave lewdly and inappropriately while dressed as Muslims in order to show that 'Muslims are bad' (there were cases of religious Muslims confronting such individuals only to find the disguised 'Muslims' wearing necklaces with crosses).

4. I had the opportunity to speak with former Christian missionary who reverted to Islam; Steve Rockwell, and he told me that the most common tactic in Indonesia was 'if you want the bowl of rice, you must take Jesus with it'.

On the other hand, lectures by former Priests like Yusuf Estes leads to 100's and even 1000+ individuals in their audiences to revert to Islam at once after merely propagating the religion in the purest sense.


Not really sure what my enlightened approach has to do with the previous post nor what business men have to do with it either.

Point 4 is a perfect example of what i was referring to.

Convert to islam do so willingly and out of the shear "beauty" of islam.

Yet those leaving islam or converting to other religions are being tricked away from that beauty.

Like i said islam along with othr religions has used economic "incentives" to convert people.
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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#70 DarthNinja

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:14 AM

Not really sure what my enlightened approach has to do with the previous post nor what business men have to do with it either.

Point 4 is a perfect example of what i was referring to.

Convert to islam do so willingly and out of the shear "beauty" of islam.

Yet those leaving islam or converting to other religions are being tricked away from that beauty.

Like i said islam along with othr religions has used economic "incentives" to convert people.


Fine, I'll put aside the tongue-in-cheekiness...

My comments specifically related to point 4 came directly from someone who was a Christian missionary...these real life examples frrom individuals who were up to their waists in it.

The beauty is often what I hear when speaking to the many reverts I've met here in Vancouver as well as the many who I have met from abroad. At the end of the day human beings are human beings and we make our own decisions for our own reasons.

If you listen to how Yusuf Estes became a Muslim for example, it may provide much greater perspective in this regard.

Furthermore, what economic benefit would 100's or 1000's of people get from accepting Islam after attending his lectures when in reality they are making a massive life change that may often lead to hardships with their friends, work and families?
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"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

rsz_theylive.jpg 11477626583_2368927097.jpg  7649118508_ce3e8a74a1_o.jpg

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#71 Special Ed

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:23 AM

That's the one fundamental problem with religion. Even though most movements preach tolerance of others, it seems like being tolerant of other religions is something still unattainable.

In an age where machines are being flown to and landing on other planets. We still have humans killing each other over beliefs. At the end of the day thinking or believing in anything is ultimately meaningless. It's accomplishments based on those thoughts and beliefs that have true meaning.

What has any religion really accomplished? One end of the spectrum has the most generous and kind people. The other, blood thirsty Neanderthals who would brutalize you and your family. Is the one really worth the other? Why can't people just hold those initial qualities regardless. I often imagine the world without religion. Is religion not the root cause of many wars? Take all the worlds resources put towards fighting and apply it to space exploration. How much further ahead would we be. It's extremely disapointing to think about.

And to think that as a species we regard ourselves as intelligent. Not much more than most animals in my opinion. Anyway back to the mars rover thread I go...

Edited by Special Ed, 11 August 2012 - 09:05 AM.

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#72 Buggernut

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:58 AM

Pakistan's extremists whip up frenzy over Burma's Muslims

The issue has prompted a wave of criticism by Muslim-majority nations, some of whom view the conflict as a case of religious persecution against the Rohingya. The Saudi-based Organization for Islamic Cooperation (OIC) has also urged a probe into the violence.


It's not like these hypocrites give a rat's ass about the attacks and killings that are happening in reverse, is it?

How good is their treatment of non-Muslims in their own countries anyways?

For example, one photo posted on a Facebook page originating from Pakistan show Buddhists dressed in their traditional red robes standing in the middle of two rows of dead bodies. The caption reads: "Bodies of Muslims killed by Buddhists." In reality, this picture is from an earthquake incident in China in 2010, where Tibetan monks came to help with the rescue efforts.


I guess it's just as much a religion of honesty as it is a religion of "peace".
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#73 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:05 AM

Hey i heard even more were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan recently.
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#74 taxi

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:01 AM

Here's a question for Supra and Darth:

From wikipedia (so correct me if I'm wrong):

The British census of 1891 reported 58,255 Muslims in Arakan. By 1911, the Muslim population had increased to 178,647.[30] The waves of migration were primarily due to the requirement of cheap labor from British India to work in the paddy fields. Immigrants from Bengal, mainly from the Chittagong region, "moved en masse into western townships of Arakan". To be sure, Indian immigration to Burma was a nationwide phenomenon, not just restricted to Arakan. Historian Thant Myint-U writes: "At the beginning of the 20th century, Indians were arriving in Burma at the rate of no less than a quarter million per year. The numbers rose steadily until the peak year of 1927, immigration reached 480,000 people, with Rangoon exceeding New York City as the greatest immigration port in the world. This was out of a total population of only 13 million; it was equivalent to the United Kingdom today taking 2 million people a year." By then, in most of the largest cities in Burma, Rangoon (Yangon), Akyab (Sittwe), Bassein (Pathein), Moulmein, the Indian immigrants formed a majority of the population. The Burmese under the British rule felt helpless, and reacted with a "racism that combined feelings of superiority and fear.


It seem as though most muslims moved to the area between 1850 and 1950. This is the same period that most Jews moved to Israel. You've stated in the past that violence and resistane agaisnt Israelis is acceptable since they are on "stolen" land. Does this not also mean that removing muslims from Burma would also be justified. They too are on land that did not belong to them until very recently. Land they acquired through the process of colonialism.
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#75 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:21 AM

Leave it to the usual Islamophobe suspects to scoff at Muslims being massacred as a 'cheap attempt at victimhood' against a group that has been often declared as the most persecuted people in Asia and perhaps even the world (and try to derail the thread into another self-proclaimed 'Islam beating'). This of course simply reflects the egotistical hatred and closed-mindedness that such individuals are plagued with while comically claiming to be 'humanists' and taking up the fight for 'humanity'.

An extremist atheist 'questions sources and the source's sources' then goes on to use the Christian Science Monitor as his own source to counter? Interesting...especially given his history of 'love' for Christians and their religion.

Such individuals, unfortunately, are blinded by their own over-inflated egos, hatred, ideology and preachers (while ironically making these precise claims against others).

I suppose since their preachers have brainwashed them into believing that Buddhists are 'peaceful and loving' and 'never violent' this would be the natural course of action. Such a shame.

Forget about the persecution and massacres of Muslims because that's not getting any real 'airtime'...let's instead be 'humanists' and talk about 'Sunni VS. Shiite'.

Genocide Emergency: Western Myanmar, Rakhine State: The Rohingya

Genocide Watch is issuing a Genocide Emergency Alert for the Rohingya of Myanmar

http://www.genocidew...rg/myanmar.html


So speaking out against certain things about Islam and Islamists makes me a islamophobe?? How about a hate-monger? Or a zionist? Yeah, i'm probably a Muslim hating Zionist, right?

What a goof.

And yeah, it is a cheap attempt at victim-hood. I see the raising of funds in Pakistan through the selling of ginned up religious sensationalism as just that; an attempt to play the victim. The outcome is outrage and ultimately money.

I thought an expert conspiracy nutjob such as yourself would have easily connected those obvious dots. Oh, but you're a muslim, so you can't see or say anything against anything muslim, including disingenuous reports from 'unofficial sources', when they're presented.

Do you have something against the Christian Science Monitor's ability to reprint news and link to other news sources? Did you take a look at where they received their information from??

Social networking sites are abuzz with news about Muslims being killedin Burma.You can see the sporadic posting of pictures by different people with captions like ‘Muslims killing in Burma’, ‘Muslims slaughtered by Buddhists in Burma’ and so on.


Thus, I took on the mission to sort the truth out for myself once and for all and researched some pictures that I felt were dubious. Below are a few pictures and their original copies. You can evidently see the gross difference between them and how they are thrown out of context.


And who was the source of the information?? Oh, none other than Faraz Ahmed, of the the Pakistani newspaper, 'The Express Tribune'. Mr Ahmed, was reporting on facts that he went to Myanmar(Burma) to find out for himself, instead of sitting in Pakistan fanning flames of ignorance.

http://blogs.tribune...slim-cleansing/

And he goes on to rightly state:

These images are false and are only igniting hatred and prejudice in our youth.

We need to become more vigilant and aware of the credibility and authenticity of pictures we browse through. It only takes one wrong image to push us over the edge towards extremism.


Oh, but he must be an islamophobe, just like me, right!? :rolleyes:

I think you should look at your own ego and ideology before pointing to mine, not to mention your own bias and ignorance toward everything and anything that speaks out against your religion. By the way, did you read what was reported to have started this all?


Speaking of tripe...


So, they don't burn women with acid in Pakistan, or limit human rights for women in Saudi Arabia, or treat the non-religious/Atheist poorly in Indonesia??

The fact that you call it 'tripe' means a) you can't come up with your own words and like to parrot mine, which makes sense since you servilely parrot whatever your religion orders you to; or, b ) you're willfully being ignorant or obtuse about the examples I put forth in the statement; or, c) you honestly don't really know what you're talking about.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 11 August 2012 - 11:54 AM.

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#76 Buggernut

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:59 AM

Leave it to the usual Islamophobe suspects to scoff at Muslims being massacred as a 'cheap attempt at victimhood' against a group that has been often declared as the most persecuted people in Asia and perhaps even the world (and try to derail the thread into another self-proclaimed 'Islam beating'). This of course simply reflects the egotistical hatred and closed-mindedness that such individuals are plagued with while comically claiming to be 'humanists' and taking up the fight for 'humanity'.

An extremist atheist 'questions sources and the source's sources' then goes on to use the Christian Science Monitor as his own source to counter? Interesting...especially given his history of 'love' for Christians and their religion.

Such individuals, unfortunately, are blinded by their own over-inflated egos, hatred, ideology and preachers (while ironically making these precise claims against others).

I suppose since their preachers have brainwashed them into believing that Buddhists are 'peaceful and loving' and 'never violent' this would be the natural course of action. Such a shame.

Forget about the persecution and massacres of Muslims because that's not getting any real 'airtime'...let's instead be 'humanists' and talk about 'Sunni VS. Shiite'.

Genocide Emergency: Western Myanmar, Rakhine State: The Rohingya

Genocide Watch is issuing a Genocide Emergency Alert for the Rohingya of Myanmar

http://www.genocidew...rg/myanmar.html


So did you feel and express the same outrage about Christians getting attacked by Muslims in a similar manner in places like Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt and Indonesia?

What are your thoughts on sharia law being imposed upon the population in Muslim majority countries, even to non-Muslims, and the persecution and/or execution of apostates within those countries? If it's none of our business how they run their countries and what they do within them, can't the same be said for foreign non-Islamic countries?
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#77 Buggernut

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:01 PM

So speaking out against certain things about Islam and Islamists makes me a islamophobe?? How about a hate-monger? Or a zionist? Yeah, i'm probably a Muslim hating Zionist, right?

What a goof.

And yeah, it is a cheap attempt at victim-hood. I see the raising of funds in Pakistan through the selling of ginned up religious sensationalism as just that; an attempt to play the victim. The outcome is outrage and ultimately money.

I thought an expert conspiracy nutjob such as yourself would have easily connected those obvious dots. Oh, but you're a muslim, so you can't see or say anything against anything muslim, including disingenuous reports from 'unofficial sources', when they're presented.


That would be like any one of us screaming and yelling at the referee for making an erroneous call that favours the Canucks. Hypocritical homerism at its finest.
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#78 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:09 PM

So sifting through the information you've received so far, what is your stance on the situation in Burma? Is all you really have to say, "but those hypocritical Muslims still pour acid on the face of their woman!". Are you for real man? Out of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, you are taking such a small group and wiping us all with the same brush? You're seriously doing that? And to top it off, you're taking this chance to say how bad *small group of* Muslims are by saying it in lieu of a peoples being persecuted? You're way more disgusting than me in the Aurora thread.
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#79 Super19

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:12 PM

So did you feel and express the same outrage about Christians getting attacked by Muslims in a similar manner in places like Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt and Indonesia?

I feel almost the same when Christians get persecuted even online by the hands of militant atheists.
And for the most part, relations between Christians and Muslims in Egypt at least are good.

What are your thoughts on sharia law being imposed upon the population in Muslim majority countries, even to non-Muslims, and the persecution and/or execution of apostates within those countries? If it's none of our business how they run their countries and what they do within them, can't the same be said for foreign non-Islamic countries?

Not Islamic.
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#80 Buggernut

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:32 PM

So sifting through the information you've received so far, what is your stance on the situation in Burma? Is all you really have to say, "but those hypocritical Muslims still pour acid on the face of their woman!". Are you for real man? Out of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, you are taking such a small group and wiping us all with the same brush? You're seriously doing that? And to top it off, you're taking this chance to say how bad *small group of* Muslims are by saying it in lieu of a peoples being persecuted? You're way more disgusting than me in the Aurora thread.


And the attacks on Muslims are reflective of Buddhists as a whole?

I have yet to see the same level of solidarity among Buddhists worldwide behind those in Myanmar or anywhere else as I do between Muslims. Heck, I even doubt these attacks have anything to do with Buddhism itself. It's not a religion known to force its way onto other people.

And I have yet to see a "My heart goes out to..." statement from you in this thread.

I'll give you this, though. You're not as quick to make excuses and defend the Muslim aggressors as that other guy is when the shoe is on the other foot.

I feel almost the same when Christians get persecuted even online by the hands of militant atheists.
And for the most part, relations between Christians and Muslims in Egypt at least are good.


What about by militant Muslims?

And isn't Egypt where a bunch of Copts got attacked?
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#81 Super19

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:32 AM

So speaking out against certain things about Islam and Islamists makes me a islamophobe?? How about a hate-monger? Or a zionist? Yeah, i'm probably a Muslim hating Zionist, right?

What a goof.

And yeah, it is a cheap attempt at victim-hood. I see the raising of funds in Pakistan through the selling of ginned up religious sensationalism as just that; an attempt to play the victim. The outcome is outrage and ultimately money.

I thought an expert conspiracy nutjob such as yourself would have easily connected those obvious dots. Oh, but you're a muslim, so you can't see or say anything against anything muslim, including disingenuous reports from 'unofficial sources', when they're presented.

Do you have something against the Christian Science Monitor's ability to reprint news and link to other news sources? Did you take a look at where they received their information from??



And who was the source of the information?? Oh, none other than Faraz Ahmed, of the the Pakistani newspaper, 'The Express Tribune'. Mr Ahmed, was reporting on facts that he went to Myanmar(Burma) to find out for himself, instead of sitting in Pakistan fanning flames of ignorance.

http://blogs.tribune...slim-cleansing/

And he goes on to rightly state:



Oh, but he must be an islamophobe, just like me, right!? :rolleyes:

I think you should look at your own ego and ideology before pointing to mine, not to mention your own bias and ignorance toward everything and anything that speaks out against your religion. By the way, did you read what was reported to have started this all?




So, they don't burn women with acid in Pakistan, or limit human rights for women in Saudi Arabia, or treat the non-religious/Atheist poorly in Indonesia??

The fact that you call it 'tripe' means a) you can't come up with your own words and like to parrot mine, which makes sense since you servilely parrot whatever your religion orders you to; or, b ) you're willfully being ignorant or obtuse about the examples I put forth in the statement; or, c) you honestly don't really know what you're talking about.

Only talking about your first sentence... instead of condemning the Burmese and majority Buddhists racism towards the minorities, or even showing sympathy sincerely to those persecuted you are doing what you love to do - hate on religion and specifically the Abrahmic Ones. Your blinded hate on religion is now proven to be disgusting.

The Economist has also done a piece on this.
http://www.economist...uted-rohingyas?
And yes, shame on some the Arab leaders who are oppressing their people and not doing a good job protecting their fellow muslims. And to the pakistanis as well.. it is all a joke and beyond pathetic. See post#2 for a success story though with the wife of Turkey's PM.

Edited by Super19, 12 August 2012 - 01:39 AM.

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#82 لني

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:17 AM

Only talking about your first sentence... instead of condemning the Burmese and majority Buddhists racism towards the minorities, or even showing sympathy sincerely to those persecuted you are doing what you love to do - hate on religion and specifically the Abrahmic Ones. Your blinded hate on religion is now proven to be disgusting.

The Economist has also done a piece on this.
http://www.economist...uted-rohingyas?
And yes, shame on some the Arab leaders who are oppressing their people and not doing a good job protecting their fellow muslims. And to the pakistanis as well.. it is all a joke and beyond pathetic. See post#2 for a success story though with the wife of Turkey's PM.


Once again the issue is youve come across as making this a muslim vs ??? issue when in fact it likely much more complex. Especially considering Burmas history of ethnic conflict. Maybe thats not your intention.

Pretty much every minority group in Burma has suffered from conflict with the majority Bamar. Burma has been at the cross roads of culture for centuries. The shan and the karen(red karen long necks the women wear brass rings that drive down the shoulders to make the neck appear longer) have had long standing armed conflicts with the Burmese govnt.

None of this is new or sudden.

Also problematic was your original source which again turned this into a "we must help our muslim brothers who are being persecuted" as if their religion is the only or even the main reason for the persecution.

Not to mention ive yet to see someone on here reporting an article positing the need to "help the christian brothers (Karen, Kachin) being persecuted in burma." It simply not viewed in such a light by western government or western media as a xtianity vs ????.

Ive already discussed the ridiculousness of associating someone a brother based on religion despite the inherent differences in ethnicity and culture not to mention the distinct lack of brotherliness shown amongst those of the same god.

Edited by لني, 12 August 2012 - 03:27 AM.

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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#83 DarthNinja

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:47 AM

So did you feel and express the same outrage about Christians getting attacked by Muslims in a similar manner in places like Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt and Indonesia?

What are your thoughts on sharia law being imposed upon the population in Muslim majority countries, even to non-Muslims, and the persecution and/or execution of apostates within those countries? If it's none of our business how they run their countries and what they do within them, can't the same be said for foreign non-Islamic countries?



Being that I personally know people who were born and grew up in Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt and still have lots of family there as well as me personally having family in Indonesia, I could educate you on the reality (just as they have educated me) but you must first be willing to rid yourself of your ignorant mass media mentality that has shaped your tiny little world and led to your shameful approach here.

My outrage is not simply because 'Muslims are getting attacked', it is more at the hypocrisy displayed by individuals (and nations) who claim to be 'humanist'. I would of course be just as sad and demand justice if any minority group is systematically attacked and massacred just as I was when the world watched while Hutus were being massacred by Tutsis in Rwanda (which has nothing to do with Muslims, Christians or Buddhists or religion at all for that matter).

But to compare this situation here with Nigeria or Sudan or Egypt would be extremely ignorant and simply void of any realization of worldly affairs. For the record, the vast majority of attacks in Nigeria are caused by the 'Buku Haram' group and they kill Muslims and attack Mosques as well.

And further for your information, Islam strictly prohibits the attacking of churches and shedding innocent blood and perpetrators of such are to be put to death, plain and simple. The Islamic stance on this (which is my stance) has been declared loudly by prominent clerics in Nigeria (and around the world) yet fallen on deaf ears (such as yours), for example:

Nigerian Muslims Condemn Boko Haram; Sheik Gumi Preaches: “the suicide bombers will not see God”

http://newsrescue.co.../#axzz23KeikBnu

Fatwa On ‘Boko Haram’ Suicide Bombing And Other Terrorist Activities In Nigeria

http://saharareporte...ivities-nigeria

In fact, within these types of discussions (which always turn into religion-bashing discussions by the usual suspects as opposed to discussions focused on the injustices and oppression, just like this one has turned out to be) myself and others have on numerous occasions stated that killing innocent people, oppression, persecution, terrorism and suicide bombings etc. are all forbidden in Islam. Perhaps you are simply blaming me for your ignorance, which is fine..

Shari'ah law being imposed on non-Muslims within countries that implement Shari'ah law is no different than Canadian law being implemented on non-Canadians in Canada. People need to abide by the laws of the places they visit or reside, plain and simple. Frankly, there is no nation today that properly or justly applies the Shari'ah anyways. Furthermore, if a Muslim or a group of Muslims were guilty of a crime in Burma then by all means they would fittingly deserve punishment after trial within that land according to the laws of that land...perhaps you could enlighten us as to what crime the Rohingyas have committed here?

And again, so-called 'peace-loving, humanist and humanitarian' nations have made it their business on what happens in other countries but it would seem that you are more than ready to deny this reality and turn a blind eye. Perhaps because this is what the mass media and governments around the world have done.

And finally for the record, I am extremely equally disgusted with the governments of Muslim nations in general with regard to this issue for their indifference and general refusal to help, but unlike you I'm not going to turn a blind eye and ignorantly bring up completely unrelated and incomparable events in other regions of the world.

And perhaps to further alleviate my confusion you can tell me what Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt and Indonesia have to do with Burma?

Or is it that your ridiculous insinuations and assumptions about me personally have led you to complete indifference and carelessness regarding the situation in Burma? What a disgraceful shame that would be.

And the attacks on Muslims are reflective of Buddhists as a whole?

I have yet to see the same level of solidarity among Buddhists worldwide behind those in Myanmar or anywhere else as I do between Muslims. Heck, I even doubt these attacks have anything to do with Buddhism itself. It's not a religion known to force its way onto other people.

And I have yet to see a "My heart goes out to..." statement from you in this thread.

I'll give you this, though. You're not as quick to make excuses and defend the Muslim aggressors as that other guy is when the shoe is on the other foot.

What about by militant Muslims?

And isn't Egypt where a bunch of Copts got attacked?


I don't believe anyone has stated that these attacks are reflective of Buddhism as a whole and I am certain many Buddhists are/would strongly denounce the violence, just as many Muslims denounce such violence (even though it tends to fall on deaf and ignorant ears).

Again, perhaps you could help provide assuage to my confusion with regard to how Nigeria and Egypt are even remotely related to this (see above for further elaboration)?

Again, is it that your ridiculous insinuations and assumptions about me (and now seemingly S19) personally have led you to complete indifference and carelessness regarding the situation in Burma? What a disgraceful shame that would be.

It is like us jumping off a diving board into a pool and then your completely false perception leading you to jump off a bridge into the sea (please do not do so).

You nonsensically cry foul yet engage in the same manner you accuse others of! Are you really so weak-minded and ignorant that your completely erroneous and false perceptions of two individuals on a discussion forum could lead you to arrive at such approaches and conclusions when it comes to the severe persecution and slaughtering of a given group in a given region of the world?

Wow!

Edited by DarthNinja_S19Blade, 12 August 2012 - 05:52 AM.

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"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

rsz_theylive.jpg 11477626583_2368927097.jpg  7649118508_ce3e8a74a1_o.jpg

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#84 Buggernut

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 08:25 AM

Being that I personally know people who were born and grew up in Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt and still have lots of family there as well as me personally having family in Indonesia, I could educate you on the reality (just as they have educated me) but you must first be willing to rid yourself of your ignorant mass media mentality that has shaped your tiny little world and led to your shameful approach here.

My outrage is not simply because 'Muslims are getting attacked', it is more at the hypocrisy displayed by individuals (and nations) who claim to be 'humanist'. I would of course be just as sad and demand justice if any minority group is systematically attacked and massacred just as I was when the world watched while Hutus were being massacred by Tutsis in Rwanda (which has nothing to do with Muslims, Christians or Buddhists or religion at all for that matter).

But to compare this situation here with Nigeria or Sudan or Egypt would be extremely ignorant and simply void of any realization of worldly affairs. For the record, the vast majority of attacks in Nigeria are caused by the 'Buku Haram' group and they kill Muslims and attack Mosques as well.

And further for your information, Islam strictly prohibits the attacking of churches and shedding innocent blood and perpetrators of such are to be put to death, plain and simple. The Islamic stance on this (which is my stance) has been declared loudly by prominent clerics in Nigeria (and around the world) yet fallen on deaf ears (such as yours), for example:

Nigerian Muslims Condemn Boko Haram; Sheik Gumi Preaches: “the suicide bombers will not see God”

http://newsrescue.co.../#axzz23KeikBnu

Fatwa On ‘Boko Haram’ Suicide Bombing And Other Terrorist Activities In Nigeria

http://saharareporte...ivities-nigeria

In fact, within these types of discussions (which always turn into religion-bashing discussions by the usual suspects as opposed to discussions focused on the injustices and oppression, just like this one has turned out to be) myself and others have on numerous occasions stated that killing innocent people, oppression, persecution, terrorism and suicide bombings etc. are all forbidden in Islam. Perhaps you are simply blaming me for your ignorance, which is fine..

Shari'ah law being imposed on non-Muslims within countries that implement Shari'ah law is no different than Canadian law being implemented on non-Canadians in Canada. People need to abide by the laws of the places they visit or reside, plain and simple. Frankly, there is no nation today that properly or justly applies the Shari'ah anyways. Furthermore, if a Muslim or a group of Muslims were guilty of a crime in Burma then by all means they would fittingly deserve punishment after trial within that land according to the laws of that land...perhaps you could enlighten us as to what crime the Rohingyas have committed here?

And again, so-called 'peace-loving, humanist and humanitarian' nations have made it their business on what happens in other countries but it would seem that you are more than ready to deny this reality and turn a blind eye. Perhaps because this is what the mass media and governments around the world have done.

And finally for the record, I am extremely equally disgusted with the governments of Muslim nations in general with regard to this issue for their indifference and general refusal to help, but unlike you I'm not going to turn a blind eye and ignorantly bring up completely unrelated and incomparable events in other regions of the world.

And perhaps to further alleviate my confusion you can tell me what Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt and Indonesia have to do with Burma?

Or is it that your ridiculous insinuations and assumptions about me personally have led you to complete indifference and carelessness regarding the situation in Burma? What a disgraceful shame that would be.



I don't believe anyone has stated that these attacks are reflective of Buddhism as a whole and I am certain many Buddhists are/would strongly denounce the violence, just as many Muslims denounce such violence (even though it tends to fall on deaf and ignorant ears).

Again, perhaps you could help provide assuage to my confusion with regard to how Nigeria and Egypt are even remotely related to this (see above for further elaboration)?

Again, is it that your ridiculous insinuations and assumptions about me (and now seemingly S19) personally have led you to complete indifference and carelessness regarding the situation in Burma? What a disgraceful shame that would be.

It is like us jumping off a diving board into a pool and then your completely false perception leading you to jump off a bridge into the sea (please do not do so).

You nonsensically cry foul yet engage in the same manner you accuse others of! Are you really so weak-minded and ignorant that your completely erroneous and false perceptions of two individuals on a discussion forum could lead you to arrive at such approaches and conclusions when it comes to the severe persecution and slaughtering of a given group in a given region of the world?

Wow!


Just judging by the timing and context of your (both you and S19's) posts. The words "Buddhist extremists" is quite telling.

If you are sincere in what you say here and truly feel equal indignation towards the abuse of other human groups regardless of religion, great, though I haven't seen you cry foul as loudly about them. Are you sure there isn't a tinge of Islamic brotherhood influencing you in the least?
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#85 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 04:18 PM

That's the one fundamental problem with religion. Even though most movements preach tolerance of others, it seems like being tolerant of other religions is something still unattainable.

In an age where machines are being flown to and landing on other planets. We still have humans killing each other over beliefs. At the end of the day thinking or believing in anything is ultimately meaningless. It's accomplishments based on those thoughts and beliefs that have true meaning.

What has any religion really accomplished? One end of the spectrum has the most generous and kind people. The other, blood thirsty Neanderthals who would brutalize you and your family. Is the one really worth the other? Why can't people just hold those initial qualities regardless. I often imagine the world without religion. Is religion not the root cause of many wars? Take all the worlds resources put towards fighting and apply it to space exploration. How much further ahead would we be. It's extremely disapointing to think about.

And to think that as a species we regard ourselves as intelligent. Not much more than most animals in my opinion. Anyway back to the mars rover thread I go...


Ed even though we disagree on other issue's , i must say that this is an excellent post and i totally agree with what you have said .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

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#86 Tearloch7

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 04:29 PM



Nothing more needs saying ..
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

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#87 taxi

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 08:07 PM

Done a bit more research on the issue, and this is the best I can come up with in terms of what's going on.

During the colonial period and into now a group of muslims from Bangladesh has entered Burma in large numbers. Burma has agreed to grant citizenship to everyone who entered the country before it was established, in 1948, and their descendants. All other Rohingya are considered illegal immigrants and denied citizenship, and, therefore, basic rights. The kicker is the Bangladeshi, who are fellow muslims, now refuse to take these people back.

Meanwhile, the Burmese government is an ethnically nationalistic one. It discriminates against not only the Rohingya but also Chinese, Mon, and other Indians.

This latest round of violence broke out when a Rahkine woman was raped by several Rohingya men. The Rahkine attacked random muslims and riots ensued. Estimates for casualties range from 24-100. Rahkine Buddhists are also among the dead, as muslim Rohingya have responded with their own violence, however, they have less access to resources in general, and are more on the receiving end of this one.

Is this persecution of muslims? I'd say yes. However, you have to remember that these kind of religion inspired riots are common in this part of the world. Also, the riots in this case also have a strong ethnic element. Muslims in Burma are almost exclusively of Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi ethnic minorities. Burma, as previously stated, has gone out of it's way to establish an ethnically Burmese country and denied basic rights to ethnic minorities.

There's definitely something fishy giong on with the reporting of this story too. For instance the wikipedia page has been changed to read:

Since June 2012, 20,000[citation needed] muslims have been killed in sectarian violence in the state.


I don't think there is a Pakistani plot, but definitely poeple with political motivations are exaggerting and fabricating facts to push their own motives.
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#88 Hyzer

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 09:49 PM

Speaking from personal experience, most muslims I've met are really nice and I only have good things to say about them. Can't take a small sample size and generalize it to everyone.
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#89 Losing With Pride

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:04 PM

Religion...

Continuing to kill more and more people daily.
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#90 Special Ed

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:28 PM

Ed even though we disagree on other issue's , i must say that this is an excellent post and i totally agree with what you have said .


Cheers.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.






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