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#121 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:25 PM

Thank you for using an example. So how would dhimmah be treated under said caliphate should one be established? As they were during ottoman rule?

I'd hope not...
http://en.wikipedia....menian_genocide
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#122 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:27 PM

Define an established caliphate, then. It's certainly not the opinion of the various governments around the world who consider themselves to be ruling in accordance with the Quran and hadith.

I think the main thing you have to know was the last Caliph we had was part of the Ottoman Empire. Today there is no such authority today which in turn must mean there is no such Islamic government.
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#123 Super19

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:29 PM

Thank you for using an example. So how would dhimmah be treated under said caliphate should one be established? As they were during ottoman rule?

Ask a mufti or at least someone learned who can give you an answer with daleel.

Beat me to the punch. The no true Scotsman fallacy gets pulled out pretty often in religious discussions.

I hope you realize that I haven't dished it out.
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#124 لني

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:37 PM

Beat me to the punch. The no true Scotsman fallacy gets pulled out pretty often in religious discussions.


I wasn't talking about the no true scotsman fallacy just the habitual inclinations of the scots!
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#125 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:50 PM

I think the main thing you have to know was the last Caliph we had was part of the Ottoman Empire. Today there is no such authority today which in turn must mean there is no such Islamic government.

What about when there were multiple caliphates at the same time? Were they all Islamic?

I hope you realize that I haven't dished it out.

I guess if your reasoning for not calling those governments Islamic is that they're not called caliphates, then it's not a no true Scotsman. According to the definition you use, would the term "government ruling according to Islamic principles" be more accurate to describe the governments in question than "Islamic"? The governments mentioned (aside from Turkey. I'd consider them to be secular) do govern according to their interpretation of Islamic principles. If so, then we're just splitting hairs over semantics in the definition of "Islamic".

I wasn't talking about the no true scotsman fallacy just the habitual inclinations of the scots!

Oh, my mistake. In that case, as 1/4 Scot, I'm going to have to take offence to this disgusting mischaracterization of my heritage by kicking your ass in a fight, right after I finish this pint.

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 13 August 2012 - 10:52 PM.

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#126 The Situation

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:53 PM

I just want to put this out there that this conflict has nothing to do with religion. Its an ethnic conflict. Elsewhere in Burma, Burmese Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians and Animists are getting along. I am not saying they are getting along well but they aren't rioting against each other. Its not like they are twisting the scriptures of Theravada Buddhism because there is really nothing that can be used to justify the violence. In Mahayana Buddhism, there might be some but the Burmese don't follow Mahayana.

There is however a difference between Burmese Muslims elsewhere in Burma and the Rohingya, and that is that they are seen as Burmese. They speak the language, eat the food, etc. The Rohingya are seen as a separate people illegally from Bangladesh and not real Burmese.

Its seems a like a lot of people are trying to fan the hatred and twist things out of proportion such as with that picture of the Sichuan Earthquake aftermath.
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#127 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:57 PM

I just want to put this out there that this conflict has nothing to do with religion. Its an ethnic conflict. Elsewhere in Burma, Burmese Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians and Animists are getting along. I am not saying they are getting along well but they aren't rioting against each other. Its not like they are twisting the scriptures of Theravada Buddhism because there is really nothing that can be used to justify the violence. In Mahayana Buddhism, there might be some but the Burmese don't follow Mahayana.

There is however a difference between Burmese Muslims elsewhere in Burma and the Rohingya, and that is that they are seen as Burmese. They speak the language, eat the food, etc. The Rohingya are seen as a separate people illegally from Bangladesh and not real Burmese.

Its seems a like a lot of people are trying to fan the hatred and twist things out of proportion such as with that picture of the Sichuan Earthquake aftermath.

It's been pointed out a couple times, but this is probably the most comprehensive post on the subject. It's definitely not a religious conflict.
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#128 لني

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:18 PM

Ask a mufti or at least someone learned who can give you an answer with daleel.

I hope you realize that I haven't dished it out.


Why would I need to ask a mufti?

I would hope that one would do their own search for evidence if one was told of past glories.

The ottoman empire was successful for many muslims. Some were not treated so well. Many non muslims in particular suffered under ottoman rule.

The fact that discriminatory practices such as the system of taxation, regardless of actual material harm or benefit in itself a reason to reject such rule.

Islam is no different than most other religions in that it was spread through conquest by sword, discriminatory rules to encourage conversion, and of course the softer more "beautiful" showing of the light of islam.

You cannot simply pull out the good and discard the bad.

As much as you or any other religious follower would like to claim that there is a pure way and anything but it not that religion its the practice that matters.

Ive made it clear i could care less to whom, how and where you or anyone else prays. I could care less what religion people choose to practice. I do care abouts its imposition.

In canada for instance you enjoy the legally enshrined rights to be treated no differently from other canadians regardless of your background. It wasnt always like this ie head tax on chinese.






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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#129 لني

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:24 PM

I just want to put this out there that this conflict has nothing to do with religion. Its an ethnic conflict. Elsewhere in Burma, Burmese Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians and Animists are getting along. I am not saying they are getting along well but they aren't rioting against each other. Its not like they are twisting the scriptures of Theravada Buddhism because there is really nothing that can be used to justify the violence. In Mahayana Buddhism, there might be some but the Burmese don't follow Mahayana.

There is however a difference between Burmese Muslims elsewhere in Burma and the Rohingya, and that is that they are seen as Burmese. They speak the language, eat the food, etc. The Rohingya are seen as a separate people illegally from Bangladesh and not real Burmese.

Its seems a like a lot of people are trying to fan the hatred and twist things out of proportion such as with that picture of the Sichuan Earthquake aftermath.


The region has been fraught with ethnic conflict. There pretty much a tribally diverse belt from north pakistan through north east india through burma, northern thailand, northern laos, northern vietnam, and southern china.

There are still ongoing conflicts in burma between the govnt and the kachin, karen among other, in laos between the govnt and in particular the Hmong. Not to mention the mess that is north eastern india.

Edited by لني, 13 August 2012 - 11:25 PM.

Sent from my iPhone Canucks App

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#130 DarthNinja

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:25 AM

I'd hope not...
http://en.wikipedia....menian_genocide


Interestingly enough, the Wiki article seems to imply that the Young Turks (who were nationalists that despised Islam) provided some hope for Armenians, which is of course completely false.

Here is an except taken from an Armenian site dedicated to the genocide:

The Young Turks were the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide...To consolidate Turkish rule in the remaining territories of the Ottoman Empire and to expand the state into the so-called Turanian lands in the east, most held by Iran and Russia, the CUP (Committee of Union and Progress) devised in secret a program for the extermination of the Armenian population. From the viewpoint of Ittihadist ideology and its new and ambitious foreign policy, the Armenians represented a completely vulnerable population straddling an area of major strategic value for its Pan-Turanian goals.


http://www.armenian-...oung_turks.html

Here are their views on Mustafa Kemal:

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (1881-1938) was the founder of the Republic of Turkey and the consummator of the Armenian Genocide...The attack by Kemalist units against the city of Marash in January 1920, which was accompanied by large-scale slaughtering of the Armenians, spelled the beginning of the end for the remnant Armenian population...The final chapter of the Armenians in Anatolia was written in Smyrna (Izmir) as Kemalist forces routed the Greek army and entered the city in September 1922. Soon after, a fire begun in the Armenian neighborhood consumed the entire Christian sector of the city and drove the civilian population to the shore whence they sailed into exile bereft of all belongings. With this exodus from the mainland, Mustafa Kemal completed what Talaat and Enver had started in 1915, the eradication of the Armenian population of Anatolia and the termination of Armenian political aspirations in the Caucasus.


http://www.armenian-....org/kemal.html

Here is a more balanced view of that extremely sad, unfortunate and despicable episode in history with historical facts:


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#131 Super19

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:21 PM

Saudi King orders 50M in aid to Rohingya Muslims

http://www.saudigaze...=20120812132875
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#132 Sharpshooter

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:57 PM

Saudi King orders 50M in aid to Rohingya Muslims

http://www.saudigaze...=20120812132875


How is he going to get the aid to them??

How will it help them from being persecuted and killed further?

How will it address the fact that these people have no land to call their own?

How will this address Bangladesh's refusal to allow them into the country or for Burma to allow them to remain in theirs?

$50 million divided by the approx 800k Rohingyas = $62.50 per person......how long will that last them?

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#133 taxi

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:43 PM

Saudi Arabia loves to "pledge" aid, but have a track record of not paying:

http://news.yahoo.co...-172541408.html

http://weekly.ahram....12/1088/eg6.htm

I'd be curious to see who this aid is being paid to. As there is no government for the Rohingya people, who is actually receiving and distributin this aid? Saudi Arabia has a long history of funding Wahhabist schools, which often serve the interests of the Saudis more than the populations they purport to help.




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