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[Proposal/ Value of] Mason Raymond to Phoenix


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#1 Phil_314

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:49 AM

(please don't tl;dr or discount this right away, I know that people undervalue May Ray but hear my rationale before commenting (and don't just write one-word comments))

The Phoenix Coyotes were quite the underdog (pardon the pun) last postseason. However, the team, led by Shane Doan and Ray Whitney, won the Pacific Division title and even made it all the way to the Western Conference Finals.

Fast forward two months through the off-season, and things look much different, especially at the top: Ray has signed elsewhere, and Shane may or may not return, and the two of them produced 46 of the 216 goals or one-fifth of the goals (21%) scored last season.

While Steve Sullivan was signed to replace part of what Ray brought, the team will still be short offensively and will look to scoring by committee and strong defensive play in front of Mike Smith to compete night in and night out, since the team is owned by the NHL and will have to find value players.

The Coyotes' current group of forwards looks like this
(players in bold scored at higher pace than May Ray's (0.36 p.p.g.) last season)

Boedker - Hanzal - Vrbata
*Sullivan - Vermette - Korpikoski
Torres - Gordon - Moss
Klinkhammer - Chipchura - Bissonnette

Sullivan has a * next to his name since his stats, let's be honest here, were boosted by playing with Art Ross winner Evgeni Malkin.

With the dire shortage of higher-end scorers, complemented by the team's ownership issues and subsequent inability to spend like the big ticket markets in the league, a healthy, motivated, talented player fighting for their job could be exactly the piece that spurs the offense along for the time being. Enter Mason Raymond.

While fans here have gotten used to high-octane offense and being contenders year after year, the Coyotes organization will not have the flexibility to go out and get big-ticket guys. Instead, they will have to rely upon role players who fit within Tippett's tight defensive system with the versatility to break out when the chance arises to score on the other end of the ice.

With his record of being a scorer and tight checker, followed by his sub-par past couple of seasons and re-signing to a one-year contract basically as a signal to fight for his job, May Ray could be motivated to stay in Vancouver, but even if he does not pan out here, he could prove to be a strong, young complementary piece who could take up some of the scoring responsibility in Phoenix and really augment the depth that's already there.

Both sides could really benefit here. Mason, with strong play could earn a Top-6 role and new contract, and Phoenix can strengthen their offense with a young, MOTIVATED player with potential and past success as a Top-6 player.

Thoughts?

(Vancouver may do this so to clear up salary spots in case management feels another prospect or player is ready for the minutes; maybe Mason Raymond for a 2nd pick or D prospect, which Phoenix has plenty? EDIT: as someone mentioned in their post, Raymond for Torres would work for me if Phoenix accepts the deal too, Vancouver could get more physical for the playoffs)

Edited by MessiNacity10, 14 August 2012 - 11:23 PM.

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John 3:16
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2012, meet Matthew 24:36-47!

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#2 Neufy161

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:02 PM

one-word comments

Edited by Neufy161, 14 August 2012 - 12:02 PM.

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Oh hello Alain Vigneault, I see what you did there... good one.

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#3 CRAZY_4_NAZZY

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:03 PM

Just gotta say love the sig bud....God Bless

As for the proposal...it makes a lot of sense...like you said Phoenix in the last while has made a name for themselves without having highend players in the team, but yet seem to be able to make a name for themselves....

Mason Raymond would also benefit from having players who have very equal qualities and have playermakers such as Antione Vermette and Steve Sullivan who as well have blinding speed. It would be a good fit.
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#4 Watermelons

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:04 PM

Very well written and you clearly spent lots of time thinking this out. +1 to you...

However, I'm wondering how much Raymond would be worth, seeing that he could leave in a year and there might even be a lockout, so Phoenix will lose a 2nd round or a d-man prospect for a player who doesn't even pay for them....
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#5 Neufy161

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:07 PM

In all seriousness though, very well thought out thread. The issue is that from a canucks POV, what return would you want for Raymond? I dont think the Canucks would toss him to PHX just to dump some salary cap, that would be outrageous. Under the circumstances, Raymond is a candidate for a bounce back year. On the contrary, PHX wont want to throw some prospects to us for a player that may not even be an NHL caliber player anymore; especially if they decide to rebuild after next season

Edited by Neufy161, 14 August 2012 - 12:10 PM.

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Oh hello Alain Vigneault, I see what you did there... good one.

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#6 Phil_314

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:19 PM

The issue is that from a canucks POV, what return would you want for Raymond? I dont think the Canucks would toss him to PHX just to dump some salary cap, that would be outrageous. Under the circumstances, Raymond is a candidate for a bounce back year. On the contrary, PHX wont want to throw some prospects to us for a player that may not even be an NHL caliber player anymore; especially if they decide to rebuild after next season


That was what I was thinking about: it wouldn't make sense to get an upgrade at our 3rd line center by giving them Raymond when they need scoring, and at present our D is honestly really strong, which was why I think that it would make sense to get a good young D prospect that, if necessary, could be dealt to address other issues down the road. Furthermore, if he's not signed in the off-season he could be a buy-low guy for nothing, and that wouldn't be for the team's best interests (like how the team treated the Gragnani situation). However, that may be necessary if our Top 6 gets bolstered this off-season or if Burr/ Edler/ Higgins/ Lapierre's new contracts almost push us to the cap (or if the CBA brings the cap down).

For Phoenix I think the buy would make sense if Raymond does score more (and more importantly if Doan doesn't come back, in which case they will be desperate to bolster their forward ranks). His young age and potential do help with his value too, so they MAY be willing to make the swap for a young piece or pick.

Keep your thoughts coming!

EDIT: @etsen3: yep, it happened :P

Edited by MessiNacity10, 14 August 2012 - 01:33 PM.

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John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


Jesus LOVES YOU!
2012, meet Matthew 24:36-47!

14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


#7 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:45 PM

I lol'd when you said Mason Raymond had value.
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#8 Nucks+Cup+♥

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:49 PM

Throw in Ballard and a 1st and we might get the whole Pheonix team
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#9 CanucksFanMike

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:49 PM

I lol'd when you said Mason Raymond had value.


:lol:
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#10 Tim Thomas

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:50 PM

You think like...



Oppa Gangnam style.
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#11 Kassian

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:50 PM

Great thread btw. With the possible departure of Doan and Torres' 21-game suspension, PHX is definitely in need of some offense. While it's debatable that Raymond can bring that to the table, they'll still get a defensively responsible forward.

I'd value him at a 2nd round pick.
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#12 etsen3

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:08 PM

Wait, a well thought out, realistic thread in the Armchair GM section? The world is ending.

Edited by etsen3, 14 August 2012 - 01:08 PM.

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#13 Pears

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:23 PM

Would be a better fit than Moss on the third line. Maybe pick(s) and/or prospect(s) coming to Vancouver?
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

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#14 RonMexico

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:42 PM

Raymond has little to no value right now. If he plays well enough, he will accrue some value. Though really, if the trade deadline rolls around and he has gained some value, is someone willing to pick him up when he can walk after the season's end? There would have to be a guaranteed extension in place as part of the deal to get anything worthwhile. You can also factor in that if he plays up to expectations, why even trade him at all?
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#15 D-Money

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:04 PM

Phoenix may be interested in taking a flyer on him, but I wouldn't expect much more than a 4th round pick for him at this point.
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#16 Bieksasangryface

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:15 PM

Raymond for Torres.
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#17 shawn antoski

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:27 PM

I don't mind keeping Raymond, hes only overpaid by about 700 000. hes a good depth player to have, he can play many different roles PK , PP , 2nd - 4th line and hes are best shootout player. if he was getting paid hansen money i wouldn't mind keeping him. Kinda like how Pyatt and Bernier have turned out being. we didn't like them because of there salary know that they are getting paid less they are an asset to there teams because of the depth that they bring. If Gillis can resign raymond to 1.5 million dollar contract next year i wouldn't really mind
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#18 AjitGill17

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:48 PM

Raymond for Torres.

Yeah you're right we need that hard hitting Torres back you know his cap hit?
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#19 canadiangunner

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:21 PM

Raymond for Matt Martin of the Isles! That's the type of player we need in exchange for Raymond a rugged bottom six who can bang!
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#20 Blueberries

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:17 PM

Maybe Raymond and 4th for Michael Stone.
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#21 Aloha_Vancouver

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:19 AM

I don't mind keeping Raymond, hes only overpaid by about 700 000. hes a good depth player to have, he can play many different roles PK , PP , 2nd - 4th line and hes are best shootout player. if he was getting paid hansen money i wouldn't mind keeping him. Kinda like how Pyatt and Bernier have turned out being. we didn't like them because of there salary know that they are getting paid less they are an asset to there teams because of the depth that they bring. If Gillis can resign raymond to 1.5 million dollar contract next year i wouldn't really mind


I think Edler and Burrows are both better than Raymond in the shoot out
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#22 Phil_314

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:23 AM

*BUMP*

Just going to offer up another idea that came to mind, Raymond plus 3rd pick for Anisimov (posted in another thread but just to centralize all the ideas I've come up with).

Vancouver has quite the excess of bottom six wingers but not enough centers (Schroeder's only maybe a fit, would rather keep Lapierre on 4th). Raymond has scoring upside but no role in Vancouver (or he shouldn't have one), and Columbus has Dubinsky on the wing when he can play center. Vancouver needs a 3rd line center with size and some skill, and Artem offers that, while Columbus gets a young skilled winger whose career got derailed but who still has scoring upside, plus a pick.

Foligno - Brassard - Umberger
Prospal - Johansen - Atkinson
Raymond - Dubinsky - Dorsett
etc.

( :canucks: roster if this trade happened prior to goalie trade)
Twins - Burr
Booth - Kes - Hansen
Higgins - Anisimov - Kassian (massive 3rd line! Artem can play in the Top-6 if the 2nd line doesn't pass the puck)
Manny - Max - Dale

Thoughts?
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John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


Jesus LOVES YOU!
2012, meet Matthew 24:36-47!

14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


#23 Strawberries

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:32 AM

*BUMP*

Just going to offer up another idea that came to mind, Raymond plus 3rd pick for Anisimov (posted in another thread but just to centralize all the ideas I've come up with).

Vancouver has quite the excess of bottom six wingers but not enough centers (Schroeder's only maybe a fit, would rather keep Lapierre on 4th). Raymond has scoring upside but no role in Vancouver (or he shouldn't have one), and Columbus has Dubinsky on the wing when he can play center. Vancouver needs a 3rd line center with size and some skill, and Artem offers that, while Columbus gets a young skilled winger whose career got derailed but who still has scoring upside, plus a pick.

Foligno - Brassard - Umberger
Prospal - Johansen - Atkinson
Raymond - Dubinsky - Dorsett
etc.

( :canucks: roster if this trade happened prior to goalie trade)
Twins - Burr
Booth - Kes - Hansen
Higgins - Anisimov - Kassian (massive 3rd line! Artem can play in the Top-6 if the 2nd line doesn't pass the puck)
Manny - Max - Dale

Thoughts?



I would do it, i dont think the jackets would do this deal, especially since anismov was a piece brought over in the nash deal
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#24 TACIC

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 06:48 AM

Raymond is worth more than you think to PHX,IMO.He could easily fit on top line and be able to go all the way down to te fourth line with ease.I think if we want to get a player back we would have to go for a centre.PHX does not have any that they would give for MayRay so I would have to find another team.In my opinion Raymomd would be at his best on these teams,

Ducks:The ducks need a 2nd line C and Raymond can slot into there,Or play the wing
too because ANA would love his speed to counter there gritty style.The player that I could see him traded for is a straight up hockey trade for
Matt Smaby.27 year old good defenseman that can slot into Ballards spot.

NYI:With the loss of P-A Parenteau the Isles need to get some more offense.They started to
fill te hole with the acquisition of Brad Boyes.But Raymond would Excel in a top line role there because John Tavares is known to make players better aroun them and a line of Moulson-Tavares-Raymond looks pretty darn good.To get back from the deal we should consider Frans Nielson Because he is a good Two-way winger/center.Would be a good aqcuisition for the nucks.

There are some others but these are the two that I really think would be good for MayRay
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#25 Alex Burrows 14

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:32 PM

Raymond for Torres.


im down

great trade for us and the coyotes
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#26 Peaches

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 01:50 PM

CBJ just aquired Anisimov. Why would they trade him?
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#27 Prngr44

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:28 PM

CBJ just aquired Anisimov. Why would they trade him?


Because who in their right mind would pass up on undervalued all world talent Mason Raymond????/
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#28 canucklehead44

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 05:19 PM

Raymond is worth a 4th round pick..

Fehr was traded for a fourth round pick after 20 points in 52 games and 39 points in 69 games the year before. He is 10 days younger than Raymond (one year younger at the time of the trade).

Raymond had 20 points in 55 games last year and 39 points in 70 games the year before.

Fehr was making 2.2 million, Raymond is making 2.275 million. I don't think you can find a better example of "value". Almost identical in age, production, and salary. One is big, the other is a speedster. Both had high expectations and have seemed to hit their peak at the exact same time.
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#29 Raymond Ballard and a 1st

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 07:24 PM

Because who in their right mind would pass up on undervalued all world talent Mason Raymond????/

I know right? We also should have traded Aaron Rome while we had him. Bet you he would have fetched us Rick Nash AND Johansen, and we'd still be overpaying for that! haha
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#30 Oranges

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:11 AM

I know right? We also should have traded Aaron Rome while we had him. Bet you he would have fetched us Rick Nash AND Johansen, and we'd still be overpaying for that! haha


We would've overpayed. Rome made 80,000/point, Nash made 120,000/point
:bigblush:

Edited by Oranges, 06 September 2012 - 12:12 AM.

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