Atheism On The Rise In America

[Slaytanic Wehrmacht]

"We're not gonna take it....no, we ain't gonna take it....we're not gonna take it...anymooooorrreee!"

[Super19]

To add to this, I find Carl Sagan sums up what I was saying about the concept of god being extraneous very well.

No problem. Sorry if I came across as holier than thou in my responses.

[Tom-The-Great]

the metallica comment was in reference to "holier than thou".. not that metallica was playing in that clip.

[Mr. Ambien]

Even million man marches?

[Super19]

the metallica comment was in reference to "holier than thou".. not that metallica was playing in that clip.

[VICanucksfan5551]

True God was not begotten but what would the implication be for one to say that the universe was eternal? As far as I know, to say that wholly, is against the widely accepted theory of what we now about the cosmos.

Also, what was the Metallica song playing in the background? It sounded dope.

[Super19]

I don't think saying that there was an eternity of existence before the big bang is contrary to current scientific theory, as we don't really have a way of empirically measuring anything pre-big bang at the moment. However, I'm not exactly up to date on the cutting edge of astrophysics, so someone could correct me if I'm wrong.

[VICanucksfan5551]

Here's an article on some of the various hypotheses on what (if anything) came before the big bang. I'm pretty sure the "big bounce" hypothesis has been on the ropes since we found out the universe is accelerating at an increasing rate, but I may be wrong.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/astronomy-terms/before-big-bang.htm

[dajusta]

My belief is that, you shouldn't even be allowed to expose your kids to religion until they are 18 and capable of making their own choices. As a parent, taking an under 10 year old kid to church, you are basically brain washing them, and perpetuating religion's existence. This I believe to be the root of the problem. If there was allot less of this early childhood brain washing, religion would have faded out a long time ago.

Also, I would like to see more separation between church and state.

I will apologies to any that I have offended, I am an academic. But at the same time I am entitled to believe what I wish and I choose reality......not faith. I have faith in myself and in my fellow man, even the religious ones. And for any of the religious people who claim that they are the same as me and have the right to make what ever choice they want about being religious......I ask, at what age did you start going to church, are you sure you actually had a choice or did your parents make it for you..........as thier parents made for them and so on, and so on........

[Sharpshooter]

Which religion is that?

[Buddhas Hand]

belief or unbelief is such a personal thing , i can understand why people want others to believe what they believe , what pisses me off is that others do not want to accept anothers right to feel differently .

whether a person believes in a god or not it costs you nothing to respect that persons right to believe or not to believe , as long as they are not hurting anyone else as a result of their beliefs , and therein lies the rub with religion , in so many cases it is their way or you will burn in hell .

[DarthNinja]

Did they make progress as a result of the introduction of Islam? Or was the decline of science and art coinciding with the pervasiveness and authority of Islam? There's a reason why science stopped excelling in the Muslim world at that time in history.

How can you derive 'true justice' from a religion that promotes injustice, especially between the genders? When justice works best, is when it is applied equally through fundamentals of secular human rights and freedoms....not religious or in this case Islamic rights and freedoms.

True foundation? Of what? Islam? So the way to get more justice and equality and human rights is for Islam to go more fundamentalist??

And I believe you're mistakenly attributing the Muslims leader getting 'fat' by emulating capitalist societies and ideologies, rather than their secular attributes.

Secularism isn't the cause of the 'non-flourishment' going on today(which isn't really the case, considering the secular countries working together just landed a 1 ton laser mounted nuclear fueled kick ass robot on another planet)....so that's just absurd. It'd be more fair, and I'd agree with you if you'd said that some secular societies are failing today because of improper economic and social issues....but even then, those issues are attached to the failure of secularism. Trust me, you would not want to live in a non-secular fundamentalist Christian country or Sarah Palin's house, anymore than any secular non-religious person would want to live in Saudi Arabia or Sarah's Place as i'll now refer to it as.

[Buddhas Hand]

Darth it seems that the prophet thought like joseph smith , he had at least 11 wives , so i guess he had to spread the love around ,

but that did not mean including them in the hierachy of his new religion .

Islam and christianity do not include women in their power structure's or their decision making processes . it seems to be about men clinging to an outdated system of control .

when i see an equal amount of women ayatollahs[lady mutjahideh] or imams then i will start to believe muslims are not a bunch of stupid misogynists .

[Buddhas Hand]

And it seems Mohammed was a pedophile ,

A’isha: Mohammed’s Nine-Year Old Wife

July 2010 version

Numerous people have said that Mohammed had sex with his youngest wife, ‘Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr, when he was about 53 and she was only nine years old. Some Muslims deny that. If somebody were to claim Mohammed and ‘Aisha had sex when she was nine, and they were wrong, that would be a serious slander against Mohammed. On the other hand, if it were true, that would show a very different side of Mohammed that would shock many. So is this accusation against Mohammed true or false?

This paper will first give the evidence for A’isha being nine when her marriage was consummated, then raise 11 objections to this, and finally, ask what if each view were correct.

This is important to a widely practiced but overlooked practice today: child brides in Muslim lands due to Mohammed’s example.

In Iran as of June 2002 it is legal for a 9 year old girl to marry with her parents’ permission. Voices Behind the Veil p.136-137

In the Ivory Coast this book also tells of a 12 year old girl who would leave the house for hours before returning home. After her father tied her up, burned her back with a piece of iron, locked her up for three days with no food, he eventually married her of to a 40-year old man. He never sent her to school because he said that it would drive them from their tradition, they would start asking questions, and not want to marry until they are 19 or 20.

The Taliban encouraged families to marry off their daughters as young as eight years old. (Voices Behind the Veil p.110)

The Dallas Morning News Sep 28, 2003 p.1,10S had a story about the sad plight of Muslim Nigerian girls who were married very young, got pregnant and had labor before their small bodies were ready. It was actually somewhat of a gross story, basically of many girls who needed C-sections but did not get them. Many survived, but could not have any children due to their perforated uteruses.

To understand the authoritative nature of the example of Mohammed, we have to understand something of the Muslim hadiths. They hold a higher place in Sunni Islam than church tradition does in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Sunni Muslims hold to six collections of hadiths as the most authoritative writings in Islam after the Qur’an. The rest of this paper shows that the accusation is completely true, according to numerous corroborating early Muslims sources. In addition to these quotes from the six authoritative hadiths is a reference from the highly respected early Muslim historians ibn Ishaq and al-Tabari.

1. Sahih al-Bukhari 810-870 A.D. 256 A.H.

1a. "Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153.

1b. The same points are in Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.234 p.152.

1c. "Narrated ‘Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six year old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.65

1d. Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect. Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.115 no.163 p.119

1e. "Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don't remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah’s Apostle in the morning and in the evening." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.44 no.245 p.158. Therefore ‘Aisha either was not born yet or else not very old or not born yet when her parents became Muslims. This is consistent with her being a child when her marriage with Mohammed was consummated.

2. Sahih Muslim 817-875 A.D. 261 A.H.

This is generally considered the second most reliable collection of hadiths.

2a. "(3309) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have shared in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716

2b. "(3310) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old."

(3311) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married here when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her: and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3310,3311 p.716.

2c. "(5981) ’A’isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her.

2d. (5982) This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Hisham with the same chain of transmitters with a slight variation of wording." Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 ch.1005 no.5981-5982 p.1299

3. Sunan Abu Dawud 817-888/9 A.D. 275 A.H.

3a. "(2116) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569

3b. "(4913) ‘A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1769 no.4913 p.1373

Note carefully this is NOT saying Mohammed had intercourse with A’isha while her playmates were watching. Rather it says the playmates played with her, and they went out when Mohammed came by, and could come back after he was finished with her.

3c. "(4915) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr’s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Abu Dawud said : That is to say : I menstruated, and I was brought in a house, and there were some women of the Ansari (Helpers) in it. They said : With good luck and blessing. The tradition of one of them has been included in the other. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915 p.1374

3d. (5916) [typo, really 4916] The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Abu Usamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: ‘With good fortune.’ She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4916 p.1374

3e. (4917) ‘A’ishah said: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were [sp] up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4917 p.1374

3f. (4918) The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Hisham b. ‘Urwah through a different chain of narrators. This version adds: I was swinging and I had my friends. They brought me to a house ; there were some women of the Ansar (Helpers). They said : With good luck and blessing. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4918 p.1374

3g. (4919) ‘A’ishah said : We came to Medina and stayed with Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. She said : I swear by Allah, I was swinging between two date-palms. Then my mother came, and made me come down; and I had my hair up to the ears. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915-4919 p.1374.

Conclusion on Abu Dawud: 7 references and no counter-references affirm that A’isha was nine.

4. Tirmidhi 825-892 A.D. 209-279 A.H.

"..Ahmad and Is'haq said that if a female orphan reaches nine years old and was wed with her consent, then the marriage is permissible and she will have no choice when she matures. The two relied on a hadith by Ai'sha stating that the prophet peace be upon him had sexual relations with her when she was nine. Aisha said, if the little girl reaches nine then she is a woman" Tirmidhi said: A good hadith. (Tirmidhi, "Marriage according to Allah's apostle", #1027)

Conclusion on Tirmidhi: 1 reference and no counter-references affirm that A’isha was nine.

5. Sunan Nas’ai 830-915 A.D. 215-303 A.H.

5a. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was six and had intercourse with her when she was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3255)

5b. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was seven and had intercourse with me when I was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)

5c. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was nine and I accompanied him for nine years. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3257)

5d. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was nine and died when she was eighteen. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3258)

5e. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was six and had intercourse with me when I was nine and I was playing with dolls. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)

Note that the previous are in original Arabic, but were not in the English translation. However, the English translator at the front wrote the following under #18.

"When Hadrat ‘A’isha passed nine years of married life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness. On the 9th or the 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal 11 A.H., he left this mortal world…Hadrat ‘A’isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven." Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 #18 p.108-109 (English material at the front)

Note that she had nine years of married life with Mohammed, and since he died when she was eighteen, she was nine years old when she started her married life with Mohammed.

Conclusion on Sunan Nasa’i: Not counting English translation notes, the Arabic has 5 references and no counter-references to affirm that A’isha was nine.

6. Ibn-i-Majah 824-886/887 A.D. 273 A.H.

6a. A’isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed’s house. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1876 p.133

6b. A’isha was married at seven, went to Mohammed’s house at nine, and was 18 when Mohammed died. According to al-Zawa’id, its isnad is sahih according to the condition of Bukhari. However Abu ‘Ubaida did not hear from his father, so it is munqata (has a gap) Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1877 p.134.

7. The Historian ibn Ishaq - died 767/773 A.D. 145/151 A.H.

7a. "Yahya b. Abbad b. Abdullah b. al-Zubayr from his father told me that he heard Aisha say: "The apostle died in my bosom during my turn: I had wronged none in regard to him. It was due to my ignorance and extreme youth that the apostle died in my arms.""

(Guillaume, A., The Life of Muhammad, a translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan, page 682). A’isha said she was an extreme youth when Mohammed died.

8. The Historian al-Tabari - died 923 A.D.

8a. ‘Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 (year A.H. 10) p.129-131. Muhammad b. ‘Amr is one of the transmitters.

8b. ‘Aisha was 6-7 when married, and the marriage was consummated when she was 9-10, three months after coming to Mecca al-Tabari vol.7 (year A.H. 1) p.7. The chain of transmission includes an unnamed man from the Quraysh.

8c. Aisha died in June-July 678 A.D. (A.H. 58) at the age of 66. That would make her born in 610 A.D.. al-Tabari says she consummated her marriage with the prophet when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.39 p.171,173. (al-Tabari wrote 38 volumes of history, plus a 39th volume called Biographies of the Prophet’s Companions and Their Successors.)

X 8d. On the other hand, al-Tabari also wrote that i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period." (Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, vol.4, (Account of Luhrasb) p.50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979. al-Tabari vol.11 (A.H 13) p.141 also mentions this, with footnote 766 saying al-Tabari has a conflict here. The footnote also says that al-Baladhuri’s Ansab I, p.409-411; Ibn Hajar’s Isabah IV, p.359-360 supports her being married by 9 years old.

Majority Muslim Explanations

There are two basic categories of answers Muslims have for this: the majority agree that these hadiths are reliable here, and a minority disagree.

The majority view affirms the reliability of these hadiths. If the hadiths and historians are to be trusted, then Mohammed, at around 53 years old, did have sex with a nine year old girl. As one Muslim told me "… and I bet A’isha was the happiest nine-year old girl in the world".

[DarthNinja]

^^I'm curious to know, what, precisely, does the above have to do with Atheism on the rise in America as well as secular VS. religious states in both the current and historical contexts? Seems more like an Islam trolling and veering the discussion off course in the typical manner of the yuje suspects.

Anyhoo...consider that Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) had 12 marriages to women who were 30, 36, 38, 40 and even 50 years old. Nine of his marriages were to widows. And so what is the definition of a pedophile, if you please (and then we can talk about 'serious slander')?

And I just might be able to accurately guess why you chose not to link a source to this 'article' you posted.

Are you aware that up until around 1900 the age of consent in much of the USA was 10 years old (7 years old in some parts) as well as 10 or 12 years old in other parts of the world?

http://chnm.gmu.edu/...mary-sources/24

[Tearloch7]

"And I think to myself, what a wonderful world" ..

[Buddhas Hand]

^^I'm curious to know, what, precisely, does the above have to do with Atheism on the rise in America as well as secular VS. religious states in both the current and historical contexts? Seems more like an Islam trolling and veering the discussion off course in the typical manner of the usual suspects that roll in the same way.

Anyhoo...consider that Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) had 12 marriages to women who were 30, 36, 38, 40 and even 50 years old. Nine of his marriages were to widows. And so what is the definition of a pedophile, if you please (and then we can talk about 'serious slander')?

And I just might be able to accurately guess why you chose not to link a source to this 'article' you posted.

Are you aware that up until around 1900 the age of consent in much of the USA was 10 years old (7 years old in some parts) as well as 10 or 12 years old in other parts of the world?

http://chnm.gmu.edu/...mary-sources/24

[JLumme]

You make it sound like you can't be religious and academic at the same time.  Did you know the President is a Christian?

Further, your big point is criticizing the fact that religion is so dominant only because parents teach it to their kids.  Is that so wrong? Have you forgotten what religion is?  It is a set of core values and morals that we live by.  Of course they are passed down through the raising of children. They are values.

If you don't like religion so much then get out of Canada. A nation that is founded on Christian morals and principles.  How dare you turn to religion and skew it for its crimes but not praise it for its value.  Could you not see yourself as a flawed individual yourself?  Do you only look at the imperfections? Should you be excommunicated due to those flaws? Surely there is much more than you than your blemishes. Why do you see religion only for its iniquities? Way to be equal and claiming to be a rational person.

[DarthNinja]

darth you were claiming that many women were tuurning to islam , and i was pointing out what a misyoginist religion it is , and i know there would be people who would be interested to know that your phrophet had sex with a nine year old girl which i and the dictionary on line define as

pe·do·phile

  <a onmousedown="spk(this,{lk:'nx1fkx',en:'wotdau',io:'0',b:'wotd',tp:'lrl',m:'wotdau'})" href="#"></a><a target="_blank" href="http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/P02/P0210300"><img border="0" src="http://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif"></a> /ˈpidəˌfaɪl/ Show IPA

noun Psychiatry .

an adult who is sexually attracted to young children.

and i call a 9 year old girl a child , would you want a 53 year old man having sex with your nine year old daughter? are you denying this happened?

[Slaytanic Wehrmacht]

You make it sound like you can't be religious and academic at the same time. Did you know the President is a Christian?

Further, your big point is criticizing the fact that religion is so dominant only because parents teach it to their kids. Is that so wrong? Have you forgotten what religion is? It is a set of core values and morals that we live by. Of course they are passed down through the raising of children. They are values.

If you don't like religion so much then get out of Canada. A nation that is founded on Christian morals and principles. How dare you turn to religion and skew it for its crimes but not praise it for its value. Could you not see yourself as a flawed individual yourself? Do you only look at the imperfections? Should you be excommunicated due to those flaws? Surely there is much more than you than your blemishes. Why do you see religion only for its iniquities? Way to be equal and claiming to be a rational person.