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Is is the end of Canucks dream? Has Betman ruined our team


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#31 Beeekz

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:10 PM

Who wants the NHL to be like MLB?

I actually like the idea of having no cap, it would be great for us because we would be able to acquire a lot of great players. Sure there are a lot of negatives like overpaying for players by a lot, but teams would be at a more equal level (spending wise, unless your Phoenix or New Jersey).


Donald Fehr

#32 GodzillaDeuce

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:17 PM

Are you sure it isn't satire?


More like a tragedy

well I'm sorry that gd is soo perfect


#33 Wilbur

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:25 PM

So you preferred watching the Wings and Avs duke it out year after year for most of a decade? That's the problem with no cap. The teams willing to overspend are the ones competing year after year while the teams with a budget develop players for them. Might as well go back to a six team league and be done with it.

People often forget this. Probably due to the allure that the Canucks would be one of the spenders right now. All it takes is the Canucks to have to rebuild 4 years from now AND the Canadian dollar sink then the Canucks wouldn't have a hope.

Not sure if I like a super low hard cap either so teams have to break apart their team the moment a rookie breaks through, but somewhere out there there is a happy medium. I think the current agreement is pretty close to that. Could use some tinkering perhaps but it does okay for the parity/spending dynamic.

#34 Kesler's Nose

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:28 PM

I'd be looking for a lock out if something more reasonable isn't worked out.. Those terms aren't fair to the players or the fans, the league is either finically unstable or just greedy. I wanna see the season start on time just as badly as anybody, but with Kesler not coming back right away and the Luongo trade still looming it may just benefit us in the long run if it just so happens to start later than expected. :P

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#35 rawkdrummer

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:33 PM

We should get a lawyer and sue them.

#36 winacup

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:42 PM

Betman is a flatout horrible comissioner....

.... but it doesn't matter how bad he is, we can't blame him for not having a cup.


precisely.
the rules are the same for everybody and the cup is awarded at the end of every season, inevitably to some team other than the canucks. that is a reflection of 42 years of internal mismanagement not global mismanagement of the league.
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#37 fullcontact

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:53 PM

Start a super league....6 teams...no salary cap....no Bettman.....only the best players play and no instigator rule.....Vancouver, Detroit, Montreal, Boston, New York, and Toronto.

#38 Wilbur

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:03 PM

precisely.
the rules are the same for everybody and the cup is awarded at the end of every season, inevitably to some team other than the canucks. that is a reflection of 42 years of internal mismanagement not global mismanagement of the league.

Look at it another way. Assuming your criteria for not being internally mismanaged is winning a cup, the Canucks only make up for only 41 of 923 internally mismanaged teams in those 42 years.

Edited by Wilbur, 16 August 2012 - 11:18 PM.


#39 GHL

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:29 PM

Betman is a flatout horrible comissioner....

.... but it doesn't matter how bad he is, we can't blame him for not having a cup.


LOL!

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#40 GHL

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:31 PM

Start a super league....6 teams...no salary cap....no Bettman.....only the best players play and no instigator rule.....Vancouver, Detroit, Montreal, Boston, New York, and Toronto.


A six team league would include Chicago. Not Vancouver.

Edited by GHL, 16 August 2012 - 11:31 PM.

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#41 King Heffy

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:45 PM

A six team league would include Chicago. Not Vancouver.


If you're going by revenue, fullcontact's list is correct. Canucks also qualify if you use net income as the benchmark. As a matter of fact, so does Edmonton. By book value, you're correct by a margin of 6 million.

Either Vancouver or Chicago would be a plausible location in a 6 team league.

Source

Edited by Number14, 16 August 2012 - 11:50 PM.

CMc20QE.gif

 

Put Gino in the ROH


#42 xCANUCKAHOLICx

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:46 PM

i hate betman what a waste of precious air

#43 Common sense

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:52 PM

All in the name of profits for the owners.


Isn't that the objective of a business though?

#44 NUCKS4CUP 28

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:21 AM

He couldn't properly run the NBA so I have no idea why they think he could have ever ran the NHL.
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#45 forklift_ole

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:50 AM

He's hard-balling the NHLPA. In the end there will be no, or nearly no rollback, and even if there is it won't ruin any team. The NHL made a ridiculous amount of money last year and the owners are smart enough not to risk all that money by acting like idiots. They had to start at one extreme in order to meet the players at the middle.

Not only do I predict the CBA getting done in time, I also predict that almost nothing will change from the last one.

#46 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:22 AM

So by these comments its clear your not a supporter revenue sharing. What do you propose; retraction? Survival of the fittest (which also ='s retraction)?

Personally, my first thought is retraction, certainly relocating back to Quebec and adding a team in Toronto. I personally do not buy that American TV deals need certain markets, as they know they are not watching anyway! So why not move. But does the league also take in to account government subsidies before also doling out revenue sharing? I doubt it, or the local governments would not pony up. But American teams currently, I understand (?) get items like parking and food concessions, even free leases to attract teams to markets. So there are a lot of complicated issues.

But the real issue is that the union is made up of more players representing southern U.S. teams, similarly ownership votes, than Canadian teams. A rich owner has more clout than a poor one, but players like Jovanovski (or Erhoff) are plenty happy smaller U.S. markets have revenue sharing money to spend.

So I see two solutions;

Retraction? (which I don't see happening, maybe a move when another arena is ready in Toronto)
Luxury tax!

Similar to the way baseball used to do it (may still, I'm overseas and don't know current status). You have a cap, but your allowed to break it. An amount equal to your overspend goes to revenue sharing.


And economic conditions when the Canadian dollar bought 0.60 cents U.S. ten years ago

A rollback would mean every player takes the same percentage cut in pay say 24% so it would not result in players being sent to the minors.

The problem isn't the salaries. The problem is a system where poor hockey markets are subsidized by fans and owners of strong markets in order to bring parity to the league. This is how you end up with teams in cities who can't spell "hockey" surviving (not flourishing) and actually having a chance to compete for the cup. The system also rewards owners that spend the minimum and have no intention of icing a winning team, only one that can compete some nights.

Bottom line, no dynasties, and a watered down product pandering to the non-hockey fans in the southern states. Avid fans may never see their team win the cup while movie stars and coutnry singers who only show up during the playoffs for the photo opportunities will.

All in the name of profits for the owners.



#47 krazysl

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:51 AM

Betman is acting on behalf of the owners. The owners are the ones that offer the huge contracts but now want to rollback? Thats like an employer offering me more money and benifits to leave my current employer, then when i agree roll me back. The owners are greedy but we all new that anyway, I think Betman should be rolled back under the rock were he was born. Ticket prices should be rolled back, beer prices should be rolled back, parking prices should be rolled back...etc

I would be very happy if a new league was formed, one were the refs call the game that same way wheather or not the team is a strugling USA market team that doesnt even deserve a team. Betman is trying to save all the teams that he brought in. IMO the CBA is good as is right now minus the 10yr contracts. Minus the bottom feeding teams that cant give away free tickets. There are plenty other cities that could support hockey.

#48 dorrcoq

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:58 AM

It will ruin all the markets that spend near the cap.  To recover $15-20M in salary to get under the cap, players like Crosby, Malkin, Weber, Sedin, Sedin, Ovechkin, Chara, Staal and others will have to be sent to the AHL for the duration of the new CBA; likely the rest of their careers.  

Sad.


clueless

#49 canucks.bradley

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:26 AM

im all for the lower cap. player salaries are so damn high. (yes i know its the owners throwing around money). keep the cap ceiling at 50 million for the next X years and start setting a decent norm for player salaries.

5 years is a good max for contracts too. no more of these bs 10 year contracts that circumvent the cap

edit: at like it or not, the the NHL has done really well under Gary Bettman. Yes there are what 4-5 markets that should not be there, but its like that in every league.

Edited by canucks.bradley, 17 August 2012 - 09:28 AM.

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#50 Dreamy_Nuck

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:29 AM

The question of parity in the league as opposed to just the Canucks being affected has been answered by many, along with explanations on rollbacks.

Here is my big concern after reading about the rollbacks - what, then, happens to the famous MG and Canucks mantra of asking players to take pay-cuts to be in our city and our team. For example, Sedins, Burrows and Kesler have taken paycuts to stay here, and now their salary gets further rolled back. So, in hindsight they did loose an opportunity to make some money while they could (a salary they probably will not command in the future either the way discussions are going). I wonder what players might feel when asked to take another paycut during the upcoming re-signing discussions (eg. Burrows) or while trying to get new players to buy into the system (eg. Doan).
Should'nt replies to threads be well thought out too, just like posts should be well thought out? Just saying.

#51 kesler is the king

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:37 AM

Who wants the NHL to be like MLB?

I actually like the idea of having no cap, it would be great for us because we would be able to acquire a lot of great players. Sure there are a lot of negatives like overpaying for players by a lot, but teams would be at a more equal level (spending wise, unless your Phoenix or New Jersey).


the MLB has a salary cap, just if teams go over it they get fined. so some teams, for example new york and boston, go over and don't really care..they are big market teams so they just pay the fine and carry on with the team they have.

#52 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:06 AM

If Quebec City and Hamilton had teams instead of markets that hate hockey like Phoenix maybe this wouldn't be happening.

Really tho, Gary Bettman is a greasy weasel and the sooner he leaves the game the better. Like Dracula, just a parasite.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#53 gizmo2337

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:14 AM

The owners seem to be saying they don't want to bargain supply/demand style any more. Look at this seasons market prices for Weber, Parise, Suter. The owners are killing each other in FA bloodbath every off season. I don't feel sorry for them at all.

I say we have a more appropriate roll back this time around. :frantic: How about 25% off all NHL tickets in profitable markets. If you make it %50 off, then we might be getting closer to parity with Phoenix.

This sarcastic statement says it all. Move the titanic team(s) ... they are going down. We can re-arrange the chairs on the deck all you want Mr Bettman, but the boat is still sinking.

#54 gurn

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:22 AM

If I were a player and I signed a legally binding contract at $5 mill per year for 4 years this is exactly what I would be paid.Cap rollback or not.
If I had signed a contract that gave me a percentage of the cap, and the cap got rolledback then I'd take less money.
Multiple lawsuits coming and possibly a class action suit that could win billions in a settlement if they try to take money back on a signed in good faith personal player contract.

#55 Laoag

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:02 AM

So Bettman's $8m salary would be rolled back to $6m right?

Oh Jeez sometimes I even crack myself up.



WAIT wait wait wait.... does he seriously get paid $8 to destroy the NHL? ill take 1/16 of his pay and would do a better job. this isn't a parody or a satire.... its a friggen tragedy!

#56 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:31 AM

how so?

do you mean a players salary (ex. KB3 at $4.6 M) would be rolled back a certain percent (ex. $4.6 is rolled back to $4.0)?


Pretty much yes. Think of it this way. What would teams do, just start waiving roster players until they are under the cap? You cant just trim the salary Cap and then tell teams to just deal with it. The Salary Cap itself it was influences player salaries.

#57 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:33 AM

If I were a player and I signed a legally binding contract at $5 mill per year for 4 years this is exactly what I would be paid.Cap rollback or not.
If I had signed a contract that gave me a percentage of the cap, and the cap got rolledback then I'd take less money.
Multiple lawsuits coming and possibly a class action suit that could win billions in a settlement if they try to take money back on a signed in good faith personal player contract.


The players union speaks for all players. The players cant sue the NHL if they agree on a contract.

#58 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:37 AM

the MLB has a salary cap, just if teams go over it they get fined. so some teams, for example new york and boston, go over and don't really care..they are big market teams so they just pay the fine and carry on with the team they have.


Thats the soft cap, and teams have to pay a luxury tax in order to do so. The tax in the NBA for example is the team has to pay a 100% tax over the cap. Essentially dollar for dollar over.

I really dont like the soft cap at all. You want as close to parody as possible in a league. Competition breeds rivalry.

#59 bluesman60

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:07 PM

At this point in negotiations, Bettman is just blowing hot air trying to lowball the players. He can say whatever he wants at this point.
If I was a player with a signed contract and someone told me they were going to roll back my contract $1M per year on a contract with 4 yrs to run, I would say sure,you can buy me out on the existing contract if you want to pay me the remaining difference up front.

#60 Laoag

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:11 PM

I personally think that teams should be given a loop hole in the cap to help them keep the players they draft. like for example, if a player is drafted by a team and signs a deal with that team only 75% percent of that players salary heads towards the cap. this will allow teams to pay players they have developed more and still be competitive. like with the oilers, we all know that the day will come that they will have to blow up their team because they wont have the cap room to keep their high end players, with the loop in the cap they could pay their players market value and be able to keep them all. Helps all NHL teams and markets, creates a sense of player loyalty towards their teams. imagine if we were able to take %25 (or whatever number) of the salary of drafted players off the cap. Sedins, kesler, bieksa, raymond, schids, elder are all able to be paid more for staying loyal to their team and their team stay competitive.

Just a random thought... patient pending!




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