Super19 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 What of the kids in our society who have sex while still in elementary schools... A 12 year old losing their virginity a good thing or bad thing? Praised or looked down upon in our society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaytanic Wehrmacht Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 What of the kids in our society who have sex while still in elementary schools... A 12 year old losing their virginity a good thing or bad thing? Praised or looked down upon in our society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Bad parenting, in those cases in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Evil Twin Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 Two single adults who consent with eachother, are horny as hell, and could get a million dollars for doing the sexy time would't be allowed to have sex in Islam. What then makes you think sex with children is a message God wanted to pass on? It's not! The message was, you are allowed to have sex with your spouse in marriage as long as both are capable. Nowadays, at least in our society, no need to marry a "child". And in 99% of the cases pretty much, a child male or female wouldn't be ready for marriage financially, emotionally intellectually or physically. that's why it's wrong. it's just unneccesarry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaytanic Wehrmacht Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I agree. Is it disgusting also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Off the top of my head, I think yes. I don't know the specific hadith relating to it. I do know that it was a woman who suggested for Muhammad (pbuh) and Aisha (ra) to be married, and that the Prophet (pbuh) had a dream about the marriage. I am almost 100% sure the marriage was consented, and I'm 100% sure it was a good marriage - if you take the hadiths as primary sources of truth (which, I don't see why you shouldn't in most cases) then you will find a detailed narration of their marriage and you'll find it was healthy and good. If you would like to think Muhammad (pbuh) was a pedo and or child molester, I think you are free too, but don't think I do and don't say I support pedos molesting children or infants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 it requires a degree of education and objectivity that's difficult to obtain, let alone maintain, especially when discussing morality. comparing a child's ability "to choose" today with a child's ability "to choose" 400 (or however many) years ago is fallacious if you don't factor in cultural conditions, which obviously isn't being done in a number of these comments (i.e. "pre-pubescent" -- a state that changes from subject to subject, age to age, even today, let alone 1000 years ago). unless, of course, you're 'religious enough' to believe that morality transcends customs (and therefore time), but that takes a certain kind of person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Light Racicot Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I have no problem with your examples or your argument. However, there are just as many evils perpetrated by mankind that have nothing to do with religion which is why I earlier refered to Hitler, Stalin etc. The greatest examples of human suffering and atrocities against humans (WW I, WWII, Communist Russia, etc) had nothing to do with religion. The purpose was not to defend religious persecutors but to illustrate how it is the human condition that leads to these atrocities aginst our fellow humans. Religion is just a useful tool often manipulated by evil people. Where it is not available for this purpose, mankind finds other reasons/means to commit atrocities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyW Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Fact is, no woman should not be allowed to marry under the age of ten, and that this change in the age requirement is propsed by the efforts of the country to work more closely with the Sharia Law (apart of the islamic faith): From the article: we must regard 9 as being the appropriate age for a girl to have reached puberty and qualified to get married. To do otherwise would be to contradict and challenge Islamic Sharia law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 PEDOPHILIA LAWS FROM ISLAMIC-FATWA.NET Question 1809 After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question forwarded by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/5/1453 and 7/5/1421 (Islamic calendar) Question: ‘It has become widespread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children. (mufa’khathat - literally translated, it means “placing between the thighs” which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child) What is the opinion of scholars, knowing full well that the prophet, the peace of Allah be upon him, also practiced the “thighing” of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be pleased with her.’ Answer: After studying the issue, the committee has answered as follows: As for the prophet, thighing his fiancée Aisha when she was six years of age and not able to consummate the relationship due to her small age. That is why the Prophet used to place his male member between her thighs and massage it, as the prophet had control of his male member not like other men. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements: "A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven." Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990 “It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.” Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's "Tahrir Al wasila" p. 241, issue number 12 "Young boys or girls in full sexual effervescence are kept from getting married before they reach the legal age of majority. This is against the intention of divine laws. Why should the marriage of pubescent girls and boys be forbidden because they are still minors, when they are allowed to listen to the radio and to sexually arousing music?" "The Little Green Book" "Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini", Bantam Books MUHAMMAD, THE PROPHET OF ISLAM PART 1 MECCA An Arab is regarded as an old man, a sheik, when he is fifty. Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old in Mecca and she joined him in Medina three years later when he was 53. He began having sex with Aisha when she was nine years old and still playing with dolls. This is the original story told by the ONLY valid biographers of Muhammad and Islam, Ibn Ishaq and Tabari, and the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim. Refer also to the works of the Qur’an commentators Ibn Kathir and Ibn Qayyim. (Ibn Kathir, The Life of the Prophet Muhammad (Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya), Volume II, translated by professor Trevor Le Gassick, Garnet Publishing Limited, UK. The Center for Muslim Contribution to Civilization, 2000. pp. 93-94) (Ibn Qayyim Al-Juaziyyah, Zad-ul Ma’ad fi Hadyi Khairi-l ‘Ibad (Provisions for the Hereafter, From the Guidance of Allah’s Best Worshipper) translated by Jalal Abualrub, [Madinah Publishers & Distributors, December 2000] Volume I, pp. 157-158) Muhammad said that he had dreamed of Aisha before demanding her from her father, and his own brother in Islam, Abu Bakr, claiming special ‘prophets rights’ when Abu Bakr was reluctant to give her to him. Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235: Narrated 'Aisha: That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dreams. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said to me, 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done." Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother!" The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." Marriage to a female already offered to another was illegal in Arab law. Abu Bakr had already arranged for Aisha to marry Djubayr Mutim. Muhammad married ‘A’isha in Mecca when she was a child of seven and lived with her in Medina when she was nine or ten. She was the only virgin that he married. Her father, Abu Bakr, married her to him and the apostle gave her four hundred dirhams. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah (The Life of Muhammad) translated by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, p. 792) Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.” Tabari IX:128 “When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation.” [The History of Al-Tabari: The Foundation of the Community] translated by M.V. McDonald annotated by W. Montgomery Watt [state University of New York Press, Albany 1987], Volume VII, pp. 6-7) (The History of Al-Tabari: The Last Years of the Prophet, translated and annotated by Ismail K. Poonawala [state University of New York Press, Albany 1990], Volume IX, pp. 129-130) Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old. I want to know if you believe if the sources quoted in this article , are mohammed's official biographers, and if so would you call this a happy and good marriage ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Fact is, no woman should not be allowed to marry under the age of ten, and that this change in the age requirement is propsed by the efforts of the country to work more closely with the Sharia Law (apart of the islamic faith): From the article: Which is sick, however you slice it. I believe the same cultural beliefs used many years ago to justify marrige with an underage woman is being reapplied now to allow marrige to those under the age of 10 (and above it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLASSJAW Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Are you suggesting that you're in possession of a degree of education and objectivity superior to mine when it comes to discussion of comparable morality? Which cultural factors allowed a child of 6 years old to make more rational and logical choices than a 6 year old of today? Were their cognitive development more advanced that the cognitive capabilities of today's adolescent? What particular cultural attribute allowed for such rapid cognitive development that is not available to today's adolescent, whereby we therefore deem them not of sound judgement to make decisions for themselves, such as marital or sexual ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 To me, 12 is too young to be having sex, even with another 12 year old, but if the interaction was between that 12 year old and say a 30 year old guy, then yes that would be disguisting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Evil Twin Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 Don't worry about that news article, I doubt it's any legit. I'm sure the intention was to stir it up, and I suppose it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super19 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Actually no, it wasn't. I don't post to stir things up, that's the consequence of my posting things I find interesting and others posting their thoughts. If you're so offended by a possibly inaccurate report, perhaps you should refocus on the Saudi Grand Mufti and his words I quoted two pages ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLASSJAW Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Are you suggesting that you're in possession of a degree of education and objectivity superior to mine when it comes to discussion of comparable morality? Which cultural factors allowed a child of 6 years old to make more rational and logical choices than a 6 year old of today? Were their cognitive development more advanced that the cognitive capabilities of today's adolescent? What particular cultural attribute allowed for such rapid cognitive development that is not available to today's adolescent, whereby we therefore deem them not of sound judgement to make decisions for themselves, such as marital or sexual ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Evil Twin Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 These are such loaded questions that you can't even pretend to know the answer to them, and neither can I. As for the first part, I have no idea what your education is (I've gathered up until this point is begins with Google and ends with dot com, though), nor do I know if you're capable of obtaining objectivity "better than someone else" -- what I said, I thought clearly, was that certain people were totally ignoring the fact that they're applying 2012 morality to a 500 AD problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Evil Twin Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 I ain't even mad. I was totally talking about the authour of the original piece BTW. I wasn't referring to you or the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Collect your torches everyone. Your champion is here! I don't know, nor care about, the nazi comparison. That guy did, however, make the most vital point in this thread (which I shamelessly echoed): the news story provided doesn't seem credible at all, and when you search it yourself, you'll find very, very little support (except, ironically, on some Christian "news" site). When these dudes start parroting their exhausting tirade against religion, as is the case in every second thread on this godforsaken (get it?) website, while also dribbling out comments that are so obvious that it makes me wonder why they even post them in the first place, someone needs to liven things up. Intention matters! If you fail to see the "wit" in my ability to derail these nerds (regrettably, their most suitable title, given the restrictions of my immature vocabulary) from their drawn out attack against "The Irrational," then that's fine. But I don't think there has to be answer to the "opposed to what?" portion of your question, especially since I achieved exactly what I've aimed to do, and thanks goes--in part--to you! p.s. I thought it was a guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLASSJAW Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 over-thinking me thinks and you seemingly have achieved very little...unless very little was exactly your aim. Also it wasn't that I didn't see wit it was that there was very little and certainly no more than the posts you were whining about. It's not that the "spirit" of your message doesn't have any validity...it's that you take the validity out of it. I bet though I achieve exactly what I was aiming for and you're on "better behavior"...at least until you read this.All bets are off at that point. :D P.S. Jokes are supposed to be funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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