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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1 Super19

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:16 PM

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#2 Jai604

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:50 PM

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Another one of religion's fallacious arguments.

"Science cannot prove that god does not exist, therefore he exists."

The whole point, is that at least science makes an effort to explain things in our world. Religion simply makes claims that have no foundation in anything real, and make no effort to back those claims. It's the methodology and mind-set behind religion that makes it so backward.

"Believe it or suffer eternal damnation!"
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#3 Super19

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:56 PM

Did... you... watch the video before commenting?
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#4 Heretic

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:03 PM

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Another one of religion's fallacious arguments.

"Science cannot prove that god does not exist, therefore he exists."

The whole point, is that at least science makes an effort to explain things in our world. Religion simply makes claims that have no foundation in anything real, and make no effort to back those claims. It's the methodology and mind-set behind religion that makes it so backward.

"Believe it or suffer eternal damnation!"


Another one of the stereotypical comments....

For the real spiritual people out there, it is NOT "Science cannot prove that god does not exist, therefore he exists." circular pathetic argument.

Religion, though, is man made and is complete with all of man's flaws.

Religion does NOT equal God.
God does NOT equal religion.
God is God.

That's it.

Believe, or do not believe - that's up to you.

Forget about the religion (not that all of it is bad, I'm just saying).
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#5 Jai604

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:05 PM

Did... you... watch the video before commenting?


It seems to me that he is saying that the human mind is incapable of understanding the metaphysical.

That the metaphysical transcends the physical, and thus things that are of the physical world such as physics, mathematics, the Hubble telescope cannot hope to explain religion, no?

Does that not just lead to "our feeble human minds cannot explain god, and thus we are not able to disprove his existence"?
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#6 Jai604

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:10 PM

Another one of the stereotypical comments....

For the real spiritual people out there, it is NOT "Science cannot prove that god does not exist, therefore he exists." circular pathetic argument.

Religion, though, is man made and is complete with all of man's flaws.

Religion does NOT equal God.
God does NOT equal religion.
God is God.

That's it.

Believe, or do not believe - that's up to you.

Forget about the religion (not that all of it is bad, I'm just saying).


Please do explain then, who are the real spiritual people, and who are the fake ones?

Religion and god obviously aren't the same thing, but at the heart of religion lies the belief in something supernatural that we cannot see, hear, feel, or detect. That's where a god figure comes in. Religion and a sky father figure go hand-in-hand. Religion is the belief in the sky father figure, and all the ritual and traditions surrounding that belief. The sky father figure may be different according to different religions, or may take several forms etc. but do not for a second think that god and religiosity are not connected.
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#7 Newsflash

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:21 PM

Another one of the stereotypical comments....

For the real spiritual people out there, it is NOT "Science cannot prove that god does not exist, therefore he exists." circular pathetic argument.

Religion, though, is man made and is complete with all of man's flaws.

Religion does NOT equal God.
God does NOT equal religion.
God is God.

That's it.

Believe, or do not believe - that's up to you.

Forget about the religion (not that all of it is bad, I'm just saying).


wut
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Buddy I called this EXACT situtation on here two years ago and was flamed, so I guess I have a bit of hockey knowledge, not to mention the 4 years I played in the OHL idiot.


The conspiracy theories that used to be against Lateralus:
Puberty, life, movie theaters, movie theaters that frown upon you pulling it out, movie theaters that frown upon you pulling it out during a children's movie, Toy Story 3, Pixar, who ever decided to make Woody so damn attractive, a job, his mothers basement, being 40, being 40 five years ago, dogs who can out run him, all dogs, the Olympic committee, Truth, Fact, Honesty, Logic, Newsflash, a father figure who was there to see him learn to ride his first bike, bikes,

#8 Heretic

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:26 PM

Please do explain then, who are the real spiritual people, and who are the fake ones?

Religion and god obviously aren't the same thing, but at the heart of religion lies the belief in something supernatural that we cannot see, hear, feel, or detect. That's where a god figure comes in. Religion and a sky father figure go hand-in-hand. Religion is the belief in the sky father figure, and all the ritual and traditions surrounding that belief. The sky father figure may be different according to different religions, or may take several forms etc. but do not for a second think that god and religiosity are not connected.



No...God comes from the realization that one of the possibilities of how the universe came to be was that it was created.

For myself, Christianity is what aligns with me. I align with Christianity.

Again, religion is man made.

Belief in a creator has nothing to do with religion - I believed in a creator long before I came to religion.

"Sky father"? Please...

Of course Religion is "connected" to God - that's how we try to explain God.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#9 Heretic

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:27 PM

wut


Brilliant.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#10 Newsflash

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:37 PM

Brilliant.


So is this:

Religion does NOT equal God.
God does NOT equal religion.
God is God.

That's it.


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Buddy I called this EXACT situtation on here two years ago and was flamed, so I guess I have a bit of hockey knowledge, not to mention the 4 years I played in the OHL idiot.


The conspiracy theories that used to be against Lateralus:
Puberty, life, movie theaters, movie theaters that frown upon you pulling it out, movie theaters that frown upon you pulling it out during a children's movie, Toy Story 3, Pixar, who ever decided to make Woody so damn attractive, a job, his mothers basement, being 40, being 40 five years ago, dogs who can out run him, all dogs, the Olympic committee, Truth, Fact, Honesty, Logic, Newsflash, a father figure who was there to see him learn to ride his first bike, bikes,

#11 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:03 PM

If the metaphysical can't be proven, how can we assert anything about it?
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#12 Heretic

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:14 PM

So is this:


Yeah? I was being sarcastic - at least mine had some thought behind it.

Yours was like when a Flames fan realizes they have missed the playoffs yet again...
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#13 Super19

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:15 PM

If the metaphysical can't be proven, how can we assert anything about it?

It can't be proven by science, though you can believe in it on faith. And in turn, you cannot prove your faith through science.
Asserting in something is like proving something, but as stated, the "metaphyiscal" can't be proven to others. So I don't think you can "assert" or "prove" anything about it, but you can "testify to your belief in it". So I as a Muslim don't have any burden to prove to you anything, and I wouldn't be able to give you the empircal proof you want. You on the other hand, wouldn't be able to ask for such emprical proof.

The next set of questions could be "How can one then come to believe in the "metaphysical"?" or "how does one maintain faith?"

Edited by Super19, 18 August 2012 - 10:16 PM.

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#14 Humble Rodent

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:22 PM

See the problem with the God thread not existing is all this stuff just spills over into the rest of the off topic forum and you get three threads going all at once debating the same thing.
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#15 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:26 PM

It can't be proven by science, though you can believe in it on faith. And in turn, you cannot prove your faith through science.
Asserting in something is like proving something, but as stated, the "metaphyiscal" can't be proven to others. So I don't think you can "assert" or "prove" anything about it, but you can "testify to your belief in it". So I as a Muslim don't have any burden to prove to you anything, and I wouldn't be able to give you the empircal proof you want. You on the other hand, wouldn't be able to ask for such emprical proof.

The next set of questions could be "How can one then come to believe in the "metaphysical"?" or "how does one maintain faith?"

An assertion doesn't require proof. It's just a claim. It can be either evidence-based or not. What I'm trying to get at is that if the metaphysical is so incomprehensible to our minds, then any claims about it should be entirely worthless.

To me, an unfalisifiable claim is a baseless claim. If it can't be proven, then it's entirely without merit. Faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is just as justifiable as faith in any other specific deity if we are incapable of wrapping our heads around the metaphysical.

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 18 August 2012 - 10:28 PM.

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#16 Heretic

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:33 PM

See the problem with the God thread not existing is all this stuff just spills over into the rest of the off topic forum and you get three threads going all at once debating the same thing.

The God Thread exists!

It's just that it has been locked - partly due to the lack of maturity here on CDC by some people....
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#17 لني

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:34 PM

See the problem with the God thread not existing is all this stuff just spills over into the rest of the off topic forum and you get three threads going all at once debating the same thing.


No.

The problem is the "spiral of asininity".


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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#18 GodzillaDeuce

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:34 PM

The God Thread exists!

It's just that it has been locked - partly due to the lack of maturity here on CDC by some people....


The God Thread is dead, and we have killed it.
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well I'm sorry that gd is soo perfect


#19 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:35 PM

The God Thread exists!

It's just that it has been locked - partly due to the lack of maturity here on CDC by some people....


Create a new one?
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#20 GodzillaDeuce

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:35 PM

Create a new one?


...

are you the Creator?
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well I'm sorry that gd is soo perfect


#21 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:36 PM

...

are you the Creator?


No.
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#22 DownUndaCanuck

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:38 PM

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For some reason many people separate the two worlds of "science" and "religion". Seeing as there's so much we are still yet to understand in this universe, it is possible that the two co-exist.

For example, there may be a God or all-powerful entity that created science and evolution as tools and means for creating and sustaining life as we know it.
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#23 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:40 PM

No.

Damn, I thought we almost had this whole argument settled for a moment there :(. The search for the truth continues.
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#24 Super19

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:46 PM

An assertion doesn't require proof. It's just a claim. It can be either evidence-based or not. What I'm trying to get at is that if the metaphysical is so incomprehensible to our minds, then any claims about it should be entirely worthless.

Oh okay, thanks. I see.

When I as a Muslim believe in Allah, I am not making any claims on His behalf. If I did, I agree, it'd be worthless and wrong. However, I believe He has made claims about Himself, and that we can find them in the Qur'an and hadith al qudsi. True, the reality of it is incomprehensable, but the meaning is not. IE: Allah is a being with hands... the meaning Okay, we believe He has hands BUT the reality? We don't know, incomprehensable, it's nothing like we know.


To me, an unfalisifiable claim is a baseless claim. If it can't be proven, then it's entirely without merit. Faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is just as justifiable as faith in any other specific deity if we are incapable of wrapping our heads around the metaphysical.

You think so eh? I see. But how would you maintain your faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or how would you get that faith in the first place?
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#25 Super19

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:48 PM

Kinda related, read this somewhere else on the net. It's one of those wishy washy things though, not really islamic theology per se.

One day, at a barbecue with my cousins, I decided I was fed up - I asked my cousin why he even believed in God, the afterlife, etc. He looked at me, and didn't know what to say. A few minutes later, a pregnant woman walked past. He asked me to observe something about her - I said "she's pregnant". He said, "Let's say you had magic powers - that you could go talk to the child in the womb - and tell him about this world. About trees, cars, buildings, clothes, money - what do you think that baby would do?" I didn't answer. "He would probably flip you off, right? He's never heard of this stuff, he only believes what he SEES, what he COMPREHENDS, what makes SENSE to him. I view all of humanity as babies in the womb - except God came and talked to us in the womb, leaving us to decide what to do."


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#26 GodzillaDeuce

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:48 PM

You think so eh? I see. But how would you maintain your faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or how would you get that faith in the first place?


You wouldn't, because it's stupid.

And that's the point
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well I'm sorry that gd is soo perfect


#27 Super19

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:50 PM

For some reason many people separate the two worlds of "science" and "religion". Seeing as there's so much we are still yet to understand in this universe, it is possible that the two co-exist.

For example, there may be a God or all-powerful entity that created science and evolution as tools and means for creating and sustaining life as we know it.

Consistent with Islamic theology. God is The Creator and also The Sustainer. Also the Law-Giver in the sense of creating the laws of the creation as well ie: gravity, and other physic laws.
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#28 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:06 PM

Oh okay, thanks. I see.

When I as a Muslim believe in Allah, I am not making any claims on His behalf. If I did, I agree, it'd be worthless and wrong. However, I believe He has made claims about Himself, and that we can find them in the Qur'an and hadith al qudsi. True, the reality of it is incomprehensable, but the meaning is not. IE: Allah is a being with hands... the meaning Okay, we believe He has hands BUT the reality? We don't know, incomprehensable, it's nothing like we know.

Your assertion is that the Quran is the word of God. If we can't comprehend the metaphysical, then we have no grounds for believing that this claim is true.

You think so eh? I see. But how would you maintain your faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or how would you get that faith in the first place?

I suppose one way of obtaining and maintaining this faith is to be raised in a society or family that believes in it. Another way is for this belief to appeal to you on an emotional level.
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#29 Jai604

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:15 PM

Consistent with Islamic theology. God is The Creator and also The Sustainer. Also the Law-Giver in the sense of creating the laws of the creation as well ie: gravity, and other physic laws.


Thus, if your god created these laws such as the physical laws and gravity etc. then is he not a physical entity? How is it that he escapes the explanations of science, since, as you claim, he created science and scientific laws?

Surely he who creates those laws would have to be explainable through them.


However, since god cannot be explained through science, as you claim, does that not mean that:

1) god does not exist

or

2) god did not create the laws of science, and is thus not the law-giver you claim him to be?
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#30 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:19 PM

i have posted this before in another religion based thread , i feel that it deals with the , "metaphysical " in several ways and verbalises my beliefs on this subject ,
Professor Brian Cox, God, and the Universe

28 Mar 2011 1 Comment

by sbraynein All posts, End-of-life issuesTags: death and dying, Dr Peter Fenwick, end-of-life experiences, Professor Brian Cox, the cosmos, The Wonders of the Universe

It’s Professor Brian Cox who dunnit for me, in the sitting room, with his BBC series, The Wonders of the Universe.

His extraordinary programmes have fundamentally changed my understanding of God. Although I have never been a practicing Christian, I have always had a profound belief in God as an external force. By this I mean an omniscient intelligence that guides and nurtures me. My interpretation of this God-like presence is very personal, but it has given me great comfort in times of despair, and has provided a moral cornerstone for how to live my life.



My belief in a benevolent force stems from what I can only describe as a mystical experience. It happened twenty-odd years ago, on, of all places, a train. I had been working through some emotional issues, and was feeling raw and vulnerable, and in need of a break. A friend in Dorset had invited me to stay the weekend, and I was on my way there.

I can remember gazing out of the window, looking forward to seeing my friend, when suddenly it felt as if the curtains in my forehead parted, and everything else around me disappeared. I found myself ‘floating’ upwards in a kind of dusty light, which was full of sparkles, and being infused by a feeling of peace and serenity that I had never experienced before.

I then became aware of a lion-yellow colour streaming out from my left side. At the same time, I was filled with an understanding that should I dive into this stream of colour, I would be able to confront the many mistakes I had made and learn from them. There was no sense of judgement or blame, but rather a loving, wry knowing.

I was just thinking, ‘hmm, that’s seem like an interesting idea,’ when I ‘received’ a message, which told me, ‘Life is only an experience. It’s how you perceive the experience that matters.’ With that, the curtains in my forehead swung closed, and I was back on the train.

I suppose the whole thing may not have lasted more than a couple of seconds, but for many months afterwards, I found myself mourning the loss of that ultimate peace and serenity. In fact, even though it’s so many years later, I can still feel the same depth of loss as I write about it.

At the time, I interpreted this experience as an encounter with some kind of next-world energy that would greet me when I died. It was a huge comfort, and has stopped me fearing the actual moment of death. As I said to a friend, ‘If that’s what is waiting for me when my time comes, then Yes Please!’

It also made me aware of the importance of doing the best I can with who I am, and to keep developing spiritually and emotionally. I also realised that I had to start taking responsibility for everything I created, because there seemed to be some kind of spiritual reckoning which happens after death.

However, since working with Dr Peter Fenwick on a research project into end-of-life experiences, I am now convinced that spiritual reckoning is an on-going life experience, which heightens as we approach death. Psychologists and doctors have recognised that spiritual distress is caused by unresolved shame, anger, blame or resentment, or ruptured relationships which have never been healed. Our end-of-life study suggests that we are innately called to do this before we die, and become increasingly anxious when these issues are not addressed.

So it’s been quite an experience to watch Professor Brian Cox explaining how the Universe came into being, and how planet Earth itself is merely a grain of sand within our Milky Way galaxy, and that our Milky Way is one of billions of other galaxies that ebb and flow throughout the cosmos.

I realise now that my sense of a bigger external existence comes from the fact, as Professor Cox explains, that we are made up from atoms found through the Universe. The vastness of the Universe actually lives inside us, so no wonder we organically experience a force superior to human life.

But, as Professor Cox points out, in the greater scheme of things, human life with alls its failing and foibles, together with this beautiful blue planet we live on, are of very little relevance. We and our Earth merely exist because of the Big Bang that created our known Universe some 14 billion years ago.

Hearing him talk, and seeing the spectacular photographs from the Hubble Space Telescope of stars, nebulae and galaxies, I realised that the ’God’ I believed in doesn’t exist. But, perhaps my mystical vision tapped into an unconscious archetypal energy that has evolved over the 75,000 years since our homo sapiens ancestors first walked out of Africa, and began to try to make sense of life through their creation stories.

As Carl Jung, the father of modern psychiatry said, the relationship between the conscious mind and the unconscious mind is the same as a cork (conscious mind) bobbing on a vast ocean (unconscious mind).

As I am coming to terms with the loss of my God, I am aware that my faith in some kind of existence beyond human life is still strong. I will never forget that feeling of peace and serenity which welcomed me into that other world, or how important it is to make the very best of life that I am living right now. But it doesn’t really matter what happens to me after I die, because I – and you – are destined to return to the same stardust that made us in the first place

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 18 August 2012 - 11:19 PM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.





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