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Super19

Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences

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So does less complexity give rise to more complexity or does more complexity give rise to less?

:huh:

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Well, if we take evolution as an example, we can clearly see how complexity develops slowly over time, incrementally. We have evidence of similar processes for most of the universe (galaxy formation, as another example). Something complex that gives rise to the overly simple? You have to look at the human mind to find that ;).

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Oh that's actually a pretty good point.

I suppose we could also say that the process of death is an example of something complex going to something less complex (a living conscious being to dust, dirt and the simple elements from which we are made of).

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What's more complex in your opinion? A star or a human being?

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Depends I guess what we mean by complex.

The process of star formation, existence, and death is pretty cool no doubt.

The process of non-living unconscious matter making something alive with the ability to think and act is also pretty cool.

I guess if I had to pick one I would say a human being based on how are chemistry and physics manifest itself in this awesome interactive way. But I don't know if that makes humans more complex or just more awesome ;)

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I suppose the really 'cool' thing is that if not for stars, we wouldn't exist. That our existence is dependent on the death of a star....because that's what it takes for us to be made......a little star-dust, if you will....or, that we are all made from stars.

;)

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Thanks Carl :)

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The irreducibly complex argument? Oh man, when I see tripe like this it becomes very apparent that the person spouting this nonsense rhetoric is merely parroting some "aha, gotcha!" statement they've overheard, without really thinking it through.

Your argument seems logical only on the surface. But your answer to the question is just silly. The world is too complex to have happened by itself. The answer? An infinitely more complex and improbable god, for which there is absolutely no proof, that has supernatural powers.

The conviction people have when using this type of illogical dialogue is frightening. You think it's very clever, but it really is not, at all. It's surface-level thinking.

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Neil would have been acceptable as well

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Reminds me of this awesome pic:

wEg5u.jpg

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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this.

For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.

- Albert Einstein. (Letter to Jewish Philosopher Erik Gutkind - Also known as 'The God Letter')

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/02/us-einstein-letter-idUSBRE89117820121002' rel="external nofollow">
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As Bill was approaching mid-life, physically he was a mess. Not only was he going bald, but years of office work had given him a large pot belly. The last straw came when he asked a woman co-worker out on a date, and she all but laughed at him. That does it, he decided. I'm going to start a whole new regimen. He began attending aerobics classes. He started working out with weights. He changed his diet. And he got an expensive hair transplant. In six months, he was a different man. Again, he asked his female co-worker out, and this time she accepted.

There he was, all dressed up for the date, looking better than he ever had. He stood poised to ring the woman's doorbell, when a bolt of lightning struck him and knocked him off his feet. As he lay there dying, he turned his eyes toward the heavens and said, "Why, God, why now? After all I've been through, how could you do this to me?"

From up above, there came a voice, "Sorry. I didn't recoginize you."

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A few more quotes from Einstein that I've always found interesting even before this "new" one came out with the sale of his letter, "The God Letter."

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."

"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."

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As Bill was approaching mid-life, physically he was a mess. Not only was he going bald, but years of office work had given him a large pot belly. The last straw came when he asked a woman co-worker out on a date, and she all but laughed at him. That does it, he decided. I'm going to start a whole new regimen. He began attending aerobics classes. He started working out with weights. He changed his diet. And he got an expensive hair transplant. In six months, he was a different man. Again, he asked his female co-worker out, and this time she accepted.

There he was, all dressed up for the date, looking better than he ever had. He stood poised to ring the woman's doorbell, when a bolt of lightning struck him and knocked him off his feet. As he lay there dying, he turned his eyes toward the heavens and said, "Why, God, why now? After all I've been through, how could you do this to me?"

From up above, there came a voice, "Sorry. I didn't recoginize you."

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A few more quotes from Einstein that I've always found interesting even before this "new" one came out with the sale of his letter, "The God Letter."

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."

"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."

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I'm not sure what your intention here is, with the continued quoting of scientists like Einstein or Tyson, in context to this thread.

Are you insinuating something subtlety?

Einstein didn't buy into the gods or the fairy-tales associated with the world's religions.....that much should be quite clear.

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(I didn't really have an intention, just find stuff pertaining to religion, science, faith, atheism etc. all very interesting)

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Just that it doesn't have to be atheism or religion and in this case Einstein understood that.

With the Tyson quote it was just reminded everyone to keep an open mind...especially after reading some of the ridiculousness in "holy books" which I will leave nameless.

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Einstein understood that it didn't have to be science or nothing, not atheism or religion. He rejected the personal god of Judeo-Christianity.

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem — the most important of all human problems.

Albert Einstein (From a letter to Murray W. Gross, Apr. 26, 1947)

This bring me back to the point I made about being able to lack a belief in a god but still able to perceive a sort spiritual experience through profoundness in, many things like, inter-connectivity, love, sex, music, nature, art, knowledge, physical exertion, etc.

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