Mr. Ambien Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Believing there is no god to answer to for the decisions you make in life; no god to be judged by - has to be a freeing feeling and an appealing one no? You could almost do anything and as long as you never got caught or perhaps justified it in your own mind (like "well he was being so annoying I pretty much had to kill him...") there would be no consequences. You are free to act as you please free of having to ultimately answer for it in the end as long as you don't get caught. You can't say for some people that's not appealing (the feeling of not being judged). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Based on what I know of the Bible (many years of Catholic school), I can tell you with certainty that my own personal moral code holds me to a much higher standard than any Biblical God. I could also make the argument that those religious people that believe they can pray away their sin actually have a much more compelling reason to misbehave than someone with no religious affiliation. As an atheist, I have to live with my guilt. As a Christian, I could just say a few Hail Mary's and consider myself absolved. See how that type of weak logic works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Theists don't seem to have any problems being immoral at, despite the supposed increased accountability. In fact, atheists are committing crimes at a much lower rate than theists (for the record, I think this is just correlation, not causation). The concept of God is just an externalized version of the conscience, and not believing in God doesn't seem to relieve any moral guilt for most people. I know I didn't have a radical shift in accountability when I stopped believing in God. It just shifted from an external source to an internal one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Uh, far more often than not, people have to answer for the things they do in real life already.. why wait for some imaginary deity to dish out repercussions? Interesting logic that a person without a deity answers to no one and finds easier ways to murder a person, have you considered at all that religion provides an easy excuse for murder? Or how about a person being saved from their sins justifying continuing certain "sins" since they're already saved and aren't perfect? If there's any bouts of irrationality, which one likely would consider murdering a person to be.. my thoughts are this behaviour lies with the person who, first off, both justifies belief in magic god from the sky, and secondly, presumes those who don't believe are devoid of ethics or have no concept of reciprocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 That's not what I said please don't twist my words to make it seem like I'm saying religious people have better morals than atheists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'm not saying it is easier for atheists to murder anyone. I am saying it's appealing to believe that no matter what you do you are only accountable to yourself at the end of the day. As I said earlier I used murder as an extreme example - that if someone decided to murder someone and there is no god, if he gets away with it there's no consequences for him. This is not the same as saying if someone doesn't believe in god he is more likely to commit murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'm not saying it is easier for atheists to murder anyone. I am saying it's appealing to believe that no matter what you do you are only accountable to yourself at the end of the day. As I said earlier I used murder as an extreme example - that if someone decided to murder someone and there is no god, if he gets away with it there's no consequences for him. This is not the same as saying if someone doesn't believe in god he is more likely to commit murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICanucksfan5551 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yeah I think that a lot to do with the religious population on the planet being MUCH greater than the atheist population. This isn't really to do with big moral issues but it's sort of interesting with regards to this discussion: http://www.reginaldb...GOD_OCT0807.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Killing someone for being annoying, while indeed extreme, is a very blatant assertion, despite your second attempt at changing your statement, that a person who is without a "god" justifies murder for ridiculously trivial things due to them not having any "god" to answer to. Furthermore, since when are actions that involve another without consequence? I realise this is about a creator but the only person to answer to in your realm of existence a creator? Or do you not have to answer to a court/peers? Or your own conscience? It should be pretty easy to figure out no reasonable person, regardless of religious/non-religious beliefs, should be able to justify murdering someone simply out of annoyance. Whether or not someone has a "god" to answer to is an enormous red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I'm talking on a per capita basis. In the US, for example, atheists make up ~10% of the population at large, but less than 1% of the prison population. In my opinion, this is likely due to the positive correlation between religiosity and lower levels of education and lower income, which are causative factors for criminality, and not because religion "turns people bad". It does debunk the idea that atheists have any moral deficit, though. It appears that there's a disconnect between professed values and how they manifest themselves in reality: http://moses.creight...005/2005-11.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I think maybe I should open up a bit. What I've been saying, I've been speaking a little from personal experience. As someone who grew up in a pretty conservative religious home as I grew up and my beliefs changed I feel less guilt and more free in my life and so that's why I say both sides of the coin can be appealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICanucksfan5551 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Also many of those in prison didn't become religious until after they went to prison. But yeah man. Just to clarify I do not think religious people are more moral than atheists! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Well I disagree a little bit. Because first off there are consequences for our actions 99% of the time (provided we don't get caught of course) and secondly we all, regardless of religious belief, possess an innate sense of morality. So I don't think there would be increased immorality. And yes I agree religious people will and often do use their religion to justify bizarre immoral actions. Guess that's part of being human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 You are completely missing the point of what I am saying. I am not saying it is easier for an atheist to kill someone than it is for a christian. I am saying that there is an appeal to believing that at the end of your existence some god in the sky isn't going to judge you. Is that not an appealing thought? And I never said actions are without consequence. I said if you don't get caught and you can justify an action in your own mind then there is really no consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICanucksfan5551 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Edit: double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICanucksfan5551 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Well I disagree a little bit. Because first off there are consequences for our actions 99% of the time (provided we don't get caught of course) and secondly we all, regardless of religious belief, possess an innate sense of morality. So I don't think there would be increased immorality. And yes I agree religious people will and often do use their religion to justify bizarre immoral actions. Guess that's part of being human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 It's exactly the second point that I've been trying to argue I think you should have opened with this instead of hyperbolic examples about murder over annoyingness or referring to a lack of accountability. As someone who grew up in a liberal religious household, my experiences seem to be quite different from yours in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I think maybe I should open up a bit. What I've been saying, I've been speaking a little from personal experience. As someone who grew up in a pretty conservative religious home as I grew up and my beliefs changed I feel less guilt and more free in my life and so that's why I say both sides of the coin can be appealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Boy you really stepped in it Nev I won't add much on as a couple other posters have already handily noted your flawed thinking/example. But what you're describing is sociopathic behaviour and is a separate issue from whether someone is religious or not. That's a mental health issue not a faith/non faith issue. As has been pointed out, I DO answer for my actions...to myself, my family, my friends and my community. The freedom of atheism is to no longer believe in fairy tales and be fearful of the imaginary and IMO allows you to actually BETTER live by our common moral code as your no longer distracted by the imaginary and it's accompanying dogma and nonsense. I'd like to ask you for examples of what you feel "less guilt" and "more free" from? My hunch is that perhaps it's because those weren't truly things to be guilty about in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I won't add much on as a couple other posters have already handily noted your flawed thinking/example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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