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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#31 KoreanHockeyFan

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:29 PM

No...God comes from the realization that one of the possibilities of how the universe came to be was that it was created.

For myself, Christianity is what aligns with me. I align with Christianity.

Again, religion is man made.

Belief in a creator has nothing to do with religion - I believed in a creator long before I came to religion.

"Sky father"? Please...

Of course Religion is "connected" to God - that's how we try to explain God.


Amen, my good sir.
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#32 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:30 PM

Always nice to see Christians denounce religion.

:picard:
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#33 Super19

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:32 PM

i have posted this before in another religion based thread , i feel that it deals with the , "metaphysical " in several ways and verbalises my beliefs on this subject ,
Professor Brian Cox, God, and the Universe

28 Mar 2011 1 Comment

by sbraynein All posts, End-of-life issuesTags: death and dying, Dr Peter Fenwick, end-of-life experiences, Professor Brian Cox, the cosmos, The Wonders of the Universe

It’s Professor Brian Cox who dunnit for me, in the sitting room, with his BBC series, The Wonders of the Universe.

His extraordinary programmes have fundamentally changed my understanding of God. Although I have never been a practicing Christian, I have always had a profound belief in God as an external force. By this I mean an omniscient intelligence that guides and nurtures me. My interpretation of this God-like presence is very personal, but it has given me great comfort in times of despair, and has provided a moral cornerstone for how to live my life.



My belief in a benevolent force stems from what I can only describe as a mystical experience. It happened twenty-odd years ago, on, of all places, a train. I had been working through some emotional issues, and was feeling raw and vulnerable, and in need of a break. A friend in Dorset had invited me to stay the weekend, and I was on my way there.

I can remember gazing out of the window, looking forward to seeing my friend, when suddenly it felt as if the curtains in my forehead parted, and everything else around me disappeared. I found myself ‘floating’ upwards in a kind of dusty light, which was full of sparkles, and being infused by a feeling of peace and serenity that I had never experienced before.

I then became aware of a lion-yellow colour streaming out from my left side. At the same time, I was filled with an understanding that should I dive into this stream of colour, I would be able to confront the many mistakes I had made and learn from them. There was no sense of judgement or blame, but rather a loving, wry knowing.

I was just thinking, ‘hmm, that’s seem like an interesting idea,’ when I ‘received’ a message, which told me, ‘Life is only an experience. It’s how you perceive the experience that matters.’ With that, the curtains in my forehead swung closed, and I was back on the train.

I suppose the whole thing may not have lasted more than a couple of seconds, but for many months afterwards, I found myself mourning the loss of that ultimate peace and serenity. In fact, even though it’s so many years later, I can still feel the same depth of loss as I write about it.

At the time, I interpreted this experience as an encounter with some kind of next-world energy that would greet me when I died. It was a huge comfort, and has stopped me fearing the actual moment of death. As I said to a friend, ‘If that’s what is waiting for me when my time comes, then Yes Please!’

It also made me aware of the importance of doing the best I can with who I am, and to keep developing spiritually and emotionally. I also realised that I had to start taking responsibility for everything I created, because there seemed to be some kind of spiritual reckoning which happens after death.

However, since working with Dr Peter Fenwick on a research project into end-of-life experiences, I am now convinced that spiritual reckoning is an on-going life experience, which heightens as we approach death. Psychologists and doctors have recognised that spiritual distress is caused by unresolved shame, anger, blame or resentment, or ruptured relationships which have never been healed. Our end-of-life study suggests that we are innately called to do this before we die, and become increasingly anxious when these issues are not addressed.

So it’s been quite an experience to watch Professor Brian Cox explaining how the Universe came into being, and how planet Earth itself is merely a grain of sand within our Milky Way galaxy, and that our Milky Way is one of billions of other galaxies that ebb and flow throughout the cosmos.

I realise now that my sense of a bigger external existence comes from the fact, as Professor Cox explains, that we are made up from atoms found through the Universe. The vastness of the Universe actually lives inside us, so no wonder we organically experience a force superior to human life.

But, as Professor Cox points out, in the greater scheme of things, human life with alls its failing and foibles, together with this beautiful blue planet we live on, are of very little relevance. We and our Earth merely exist because of the Big Bang that created our known Universe some 14 billion years ago.

Hearing him talk, and seeing the spectacular photographs from the Hubble Space Telescope of stars, nebulae and galaxies, I realised that the ’God’ I believed in doesn’t exist. But, perhaps my mystical vision tapped into an unconscious archetypal energy that has evolved over the 75,000 years since our homo sapiens ancestors first walked out of Africa, and began to try to make sense of life through their creation stories.

As Carl Jung, the father of modern psychiatry said, the relationship between the conscious mind and the unconscious mind is the same as a cork (conscious mind) bobbing on a vast ocean (unconscious mind).

As I am coming to terms with the loss of my God, I am aware that my faith in some kind of existence beyond human life is still strong. I will never forget that feeling of peace and serenity which welcomed me into that other world, or how important it is to make the very best of life that I am living right now. But it doesn’t really matter what happens to me after I die, because I – and you – are destined to return to the same stardust that made us in the first place

Interesting read.

When death befalls a person, Muslims say "To Him we belong, and to Him we shall return". It seems as if the authour of this piece substituted "God" with "stardust". So that was a close little sentiment - yet so different.

Edited by Super19, 18 August 2012 - 11:34 PM.

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#34 JeremyW

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:44 PM

A quote commonly used in Computer Security and Mathematics:

"You cannot prove the integrity of the system from within the system."

You cannot prove god does or does not exist from within the system.
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#35 Heretic

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:44 PM

Always nice to see Christians denounce religion.

:picard:


So did Jesus...

From Yahoo Answers:

“*Many will say* to me: ‘Lord, did we not prophesy, expel demons, & perform many powerful works in your name?’ Yet I will confess to them: *I never knew you! Get away from me*, you workers of lawlessness. --Matthew 7:21-23

"You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you: ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping... because *they teach commands of men* as doctrines.’” --Matthew 15:7,8

"“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees [the false religious leaders of his day, which correspond to those of today], hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. In that way you also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside *you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness*." --Matthew 23:27,28

"...[Jesus] went on to say to them:
“You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above.
You are from this world; I am not from this world." --John 8:23

Also compare: Mt 24:24-25 / Mr 13:22; Ac 20:30; 2Co 11:13-15; Ga 5:19-20; Col 2:8; 1Ti 4:1-3; 2Ti 4:3-5; 1Th 5:21; 2Pe 2:1-3; 1Joh 4:1; Jude 4http://watchtower.org/bible/index.org

However, Jesus was NOT trying to indicate that his followers should not be organized, for God's dealings throughout history with mankind show otherwise. This is explained very well in the article:

"Should You Belong to a Church?"
- How God Dealt With People in the Past
- God has long dealt with his people as an organized group.
http://watchtower.or...0601/article…

"Can I Worship God in My Own Way?" :
- A Need All of Us Share
- Why Are People Leaving Traditional Religions?
- Is "Private Religion" the Answer?
http://watchtower.or...0422/article…

"Which Religion Should One Choose?"
- True Christians Then and Now
- The Benefits of Right Association
http://watchtower.or...0601/article…

"...Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, *not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together*, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near." --Hebrews 10:24-25
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#36 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:46 PM

Now you're just sounding like a regular JW. :rolleyes:
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#37 Super19

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:56 PM

A quote commonly used in Computer Security and Mathematics:

"You cannot prove the integrity of the system from within the system."

You cannot prove god does or does not exist from within the system.

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I like.
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#38 hsedin33

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:02 AM

OR..

Everyone can just admit that they really have no idea..


But we don't want to admit that, do we ;) We humans think we are all knowing and all powerful don't we?

We are just procurring ways or ideas of beleiving that we will avoid death somehow. Fear wearing a mask of arrogance. As if death is some unnaturel terrible thing. Remember death happens to every thing ever created, ever, so how can it be bad?

Beleifs dont work because they are hollow and devoid of truth, thats why people try to push it on others. They think if more people beleive it, it makes it seem more real. You look inside, and see you don't know who you are or what god is, and as humans we are taught to not know is to be wrong. But this is incorrect, to admit that you dont know is the beginning of going deeper. You are the infinite mystery of everything, the source of the infinite, of everything. Just stop getting caught in your computer mind, and see you're always and already completely here and completely free. You don't need to carry a single beleif in your being to be fully what you are. You are the awareness of belelifs, not the beleifs themselves.

Edited by hsedin33, 19 August 2012 - 12:26 AM.

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#39 Sharpshooter

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:33 AM

No...God comes from the realization that one of the possibilities of how the universe came to be was that it was created.

For myself, Christianity is what aligns with me. I align with Christianity.

Again, religion is man made.

Belief in a creator has nothing to do with religion - I believed in a creator long before I came to religion.

"Sky father"? Please...

Of course Religion is "connected" to God - that's how we try to explain God.


seriously.......wut?

Edited by Sharpshooter, 19 August 2012 - 12:34 AM.

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#40 Jai604

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:49 AM

For me, it's not about about proving other people wrong. For me that's not even the issue.

It's the abandonment of reason and logic for superstition and mysticism. It's knowingly choosing to believe that something exists when there is no evidence. It's making the decision to enslave oneself to a supreme being who for all intents and purposes, provides us with nothing. If we are to believe god is as he is described in the bible, he is vengeful and intolerant. Why anyone would want to be subservient to such a god, I cannot understand.

What is the need for this sky father figure? Can we not as humans justify our actions without an omnipotent supervisor? Should we not, instead of looking to the sky for cause and reason, place the responsibility of our actions solely upon ourselves? Why do we need to be loved by an all-father figure?

If we instead spent all the time and energy spent loving this non-existent deity and instead spent it loving our fellow man, we'd all be better off.

seriously.......wut?


I have no idea what he's talking about either, lol.

Edited by Jai604, 19 August 2012 - 12:49 AM.

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#41 Sharpshooter

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:08 AM

I have no idea what he's talking about either, lol.


No offence intended, but better men have tried and also walked away shaking their heads.
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#42 _Kick_Save_

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:43 AM

I am a believer in science but I also have a religious affiliation and one of the religious ideologies is that Science is percieved by our senses, our observations of the world around us. Because we are Human, science is then inherently limited by the bounds of the human mind and our senses. It is then possible for god who exists on a higher plain of our senses since he is the creator to exist outside our realm of "science."
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#43 Sharpshooter

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:00 AM

I am a believer in science but I also have a religious affiliation and one of the religious ideologies is that Science is percieved by our senses, our observations of the world around us. Because we are Human, science is then inherently limited by the bounds of the human mind and our senses. It is then possible for god who exists on a higher plain of our senses since he is the creator to exist outside our realm of "science."


I think I know what you're saying, but let me put it to you like this....how do you use your own senses, to detect atoms? Do you use 'faith' like religion would have you to believe something that you can't observe without the aid of a material tool or a systematic process such as the scientific process, that religion doesn't have?

Here's an example that goes against your 'bounded by our mind and senses' opinion. You know the static that we use to see on the screen of your television? Remember that fuzziness? Did or does your mind tell you that by observing it, one is able to glean information from it that would lead you to be able to see the background radiation from the Big Bang? Cause a part of that is that....and in the future that won't be observable any longer.

Now, why didn't or isn't your religion able to tell you things like that? You know real-life things, that if known say 2000 years or so ago, would have blown people's minds....like for instance, the earth is round. If your religious book was able to say that 2000 years ago, that would have at least been pretty impressive, right? Tell me, what did your God tell us that we didn't alreacy know?
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#44 _Kick_Save_

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:20 AM

I think I know what you're saying, but let me put it to you like this....how do you use your own senses, to detect atoms? Do you use 'faith' like religion would have you to believe something that you can't observe without the aid of a material tool or a systematic process such as the scientific process, that religion doesn't have?

Here's an example that goes against your 'bounded by our mind and senses' opinion. You know the static that we use to see on the screen of your television? Remember that fuzziness? Did or does your mind tell you that by observing it, one is able to glean information from it that would lead you to be able to see the background radiation from the Big Bang? Cause a part of that is that....and in the future that won't be observable any longer.

Now, why didn't or isn't your religion able to tell you things like that? You know real-life things, that if known say 2000 years or so ago, would have blown people's minds....like for instance, the earth is round. If your religious book was able to say that 2000 years ago, that would have at least been pretty impressive, right? Tell me, what did your God tell us that we didn't alreacy know?


That perspective is more personal than that of my religion but its a perspective that goes both ways. It isn't really religious of me but all religious texts are written by People but are the words of god somehow. Those people are human too, flawed and limited that's why religion's explanation of the universe or creation is even more flawed than science ever could be. Religion should really just serve as a moral compass. Basically don't be douches to each other or risk eternal damnation. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in the grand scheme of things (ie. the universe) I don't know anything...and niether do you or anyone else for that matter.
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#45 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:30 AM

I'm sorry, but doesn't 'faith' mean you don't have to have it proven?

Hell, even if science came out and said, 'there is no God', there would still be religion.

Pointless and endless debate.
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#46 Wolfman Jack

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:44 AM

Religion and Spirituality are like Philosophy, they are all abstract concepts that can be discussed, but can never really be debated using logic or scientific facts.
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#47 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:57 AM

Logically, it's nicer for people to believe that there's something beyond death. And logically, it probably brings great comfort to those people when they think that their beliefs alone are what determines whether their is an afterlife or not. Oh, and that non-believers will instead rot in nothingness.

That being said, logically, it makes sense for non-believers to think that belief alone does not predetermine what happens to them after death.

Plenty of logic available. But no realization. Just denial.
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#48 gurn

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:57 AM

Religion is for those that believe in hell, spirituality is for those that have been there.
If I had been raised in a society that did not lie to me about the existance of the:
Tooth fairy
Easter Bunny
Santa Claus
I might have been able to believe in a supreme being.
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#49 Lockhart

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:05 AM

These religion topics are so stale, people should just stop making them. You can only laugh at "Christians" so much.
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#50 Tearloch7

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:19 AM

"Religion" is just the marketing tool that the "powers-that-be" use to attempt to rule and subjugate the unwashed masses .. remove it's tax-free status and it shall wither upon the vine, me thinks .. :rolleyes:

Edited by Tearloch7, 19 August 2012 - 10:19 AM.

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#51 The Sedin's 6th Sense

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:32 AM

Thanks captain obvious....

Also, science can't prove I have an imagination so therefore, it's not real / using science everywhere to figure if something is true or not is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.


Spoiler

Edited by The Sedin's 6th Sense, 19 August 2012 - 10:34 AM.

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#52 Shift-4

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:34 AM

Pretty sure the last three words in the title were not needed
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#53 The Sedin's 6th Sense

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:36 AM

Cool story bro :P


...imagination doesn't exist :|
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#54 butters

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:39 AM

You think so eh? I see. But how would you maintain your faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or how would you get that faith in the first place?


Well, to actally believe in FSM probably won't happen without mental trauma. But you could raise your kids to believe in him, and it would be real to them. And you could write a book about him so that people hundreds of years from now could point to it. Most people believe what they are raised to believe.
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#55 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:33 PM

If the metaphysical can't be proven, how can we assert anything about it?

This is much like the "I've seen something in the sky I can't explain, better attribute it to a UFO or aliens" rationale.

The first element to it is that as children in North America, especially more than 10-20 years old, we've been taught that religion is truth, in whatever subjective form comes from the parents or churches we hear them from.

Second, we're told that religious elements are miracles of some type, "God" is invisible, his human form "Jesus" can only be seen to his followers, none of these intangible things can be tested, but the logic behind them and the book that is written that contains things attributed to the real world is tangible enough to falsify thus put to the test of whether or not it's true.

Thirdly, someone already mentioned:

Religion is for those that believe in hell, spirituality is for those that have been there.
If I had been raised in a society that did not lie to me about the existance of the:
Tooth fairy
Easter Bunny
Santa Claus
I might have been able to believe in a supreme being.

.. and this is called control. The control associated with these made-up things is obvious, and it is just as obvious with religion when objectively comparing it.

Most people rightfully fear death, religion controls that fear and provides a comforting answer, at the same time, adding another fear element that should you not choose their path you will be subject to a type of punishment you've likely never experienced.. thus creating fear of two unknowns -- death and eternal punishment. It's common wisdom that people afraid are easier to control, so add fear of those two unknowns with the comforting feeling of eternal life after death, as well as going to heaven, and you have yourself a wonderful life of self-delusion which won't ever get proven wrong because you'll be too dead to figure out the truth.

Anyhow, as an agnostic, I recognize one thing -- I don't know whether or not there is a creator. On the other hand, I know the mythological creators, whether it be from what we call "mythology" in contemporary terms or the religions people preach and practice, they are given tangible qualities that are easy to debunk with reason alone. The fact that the books associated with these religions in particular that I have in mind were created by people, who subjectively wrote them, subjectively decided how to interpret them, transliterate them, etc., I know there are far too many facets, layers, and people involved in describing things in these books over a long period of time to be able to accurately depict them, there's far too little tangible evidence that these stories involving tangible things happened.

Any analytically objective person pertaining to the subject of religion should outright reject it, and any person not falling to the absolutist game (i.e. falling into a logic trap where the brain wants a conclusion even when there cannot be one) that besets atheism should admit they don't know rather than coming to a convenient conclusion that can, "conveniently" change the same way religion does as time goes on. Science is one of humanity's greatest accomplishments, but logic dictates people, being people, will bring religion with it, so the battle of objectivity and non-absolutes wouldn't end even if the Muslim, Christian, Sikh, Hebrew, Scientologist, Hindu, etc. died out.
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#56 Sharpshooter

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:11 PM

This is much like the "I've seen something in the sky I can't explain, better attribute it to a UFO or aliens" rationale.

The first element to it is that as children in North America, especially more than 10-20 years old, we've been taught that religion is truth, in whatever subjective form comes from the parents or churches we hear them from.

Second, we're told that religious elements are miracles of some type, "God" is invisible, his human form "Jesus" can only be seen to his followers, none of these intangible things can be tested, but the logic behind them and the book that is written that contains things attributed to the real world is tangible enough to falsify thus put to the test of whether or not it's true.

Thirdly, someone already mentioned:

.. and this is called control. The control associated with these made-up things is obvious, and it is just as obvious with religion when objectively comparing it.

Most people rightfully fear death, religion controls that fear and provides a comforting answer, at the same time, adding another fear element that should you not choose their path you will be subject to a type of punishment you've likely never experienced.. thus creating fear of two unknowns -- death and eternal punishment. It's common wisdom that people afraid are easier to control, so add fear of those two unknowns with the comforting feeling of eternal life after death, as well as going to heaven, and you have yourself a wonderful life of self-delusion which won't ever get proven wrong because you'll be too dead to figure out the truth.

Anyhow, as an agnostic, I recognize one thing -- I don't know whether or not there is a creator. On the other hand, I know the mythological creators, whether it be from what we call "mythology" in contemporary terms or the religions people preach and practice, they are given tangible qualities that are easy to debunk with reason alone. The fact that the books associated with these religions in particular that I have in mind were created by people, who subjectively wrote them, subjectively decided how to interpret them, transliterate them, etc., I know there are far too many facets, layers, and people involved in describing things in these books over a long period of time to be able to accurately depict them, there's far too little tangible evidence that these stories involving tangible things happened.

Any analytically objective person pertaining to the subject of religion should outright reject it, and any person not falling to the absolutist game (i.e. falling into a logic trap where the brain wants a conclusion even when there cannot be one) that besets atheism should admit they don't know rather than coming to a convenient conclusion that can, "conveniently" change the same way religion does as time goes on. Science is one of humanity's greatest accomplishments, but logic dictates people, being people, will bring religion with it, so the battle of objectivity and non-absolutes wouldn't end even if the Muslim, Christian, Sikh, Hebrew, Scientologist, Hindu, etc. died out.


Calling something flying in the sky that you cannot explain, a UFO, would be the correct thing to do, since UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. The rationale therefore would be the correct one.
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#57 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:27 PM

Calling something flying in the sky that you cannot explain, a UFO, would be the correct thing to do, since UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. The rationale therefore would be the correct one.

Posted Image
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"When Jonah's agent called him and said Quentin Tarantino wanted to put him in a spaghetti western [Django Unchained], Jonah was like, 'You had me at spaghetti.'"

 

"Aziz has been charming audiences and snakes for years. And I guess you’re here tonight because now that Kanye had a real baby he doesn’t need you anymore."

 

 -- Jeff Ross

 

 


#58 Sharpshooter

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:30 PM

Posted Image


Posted Image

:lol:

Edited by Sharpshooter, 19 August 2012 - 02:31 PM.

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#59 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:40 PM

Posted Image


can you make a post without actually putting some one down ?
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#60 Tearloch7

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:45 PM

can you make a post without actually putting some one down ?


Doubtful .. I am sure he puts himself down when no-one else is around .. just a guess, but it could be true .. -_-
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