Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences

[-Vintage Canuck-]

...

are you the Creator?

[DownUndaCanuck]

For some reason many people separate the two worlds of "science" and "religion". Seeing as there's so much we are still yet to understand in this universe, it is possible that the two co-exist.

For example, there may be a God or all-powerful entity that created science and evolution as tools and means for creating and sustaining life as we know it.

[VICanucksfan5551]

No.

[Super19]

An assertion doesn't require proof. It's just a claim. It can be either evidence-based or not. What I'm trying to get at is that if the metaphysical is so incomprehensible to our minds, then any claims about it should be entirely worthless.

[Super19]

Kinda related, read this somewhere else on the net. It's one of those wishy washy things though, not really islamic theology per se.

One day, at a barbecue with my cousins, I decided I was fed up - I asked my cousin why he even believed in God, the afterlife, etc. He looked at me, and didn't know what to say. A few minutes later, a pregnant woman walked past. He asked me to observe something about her - I said "she's pregnant". He said, "Let's say you had magic powers - that you could go talk to the child in the womb - and tell him about this world. About trees, cars, buildings, clothes, money - what do you think that baby would do?" I didn't answer. "He would probably flip you off, right? He's never heard of this stuff, he only believes what he SEES, what he COMPREHENDS, what makes SENSE to him. I view all of humanity as babies in the womb - except God came and talked to us in the womb, leaving us to decide what to do."

[GodzillaDeuce]

You think so eh? I see. But how would you maintain your faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or how would you get that faith in the first place?

[Super19]

For some reason many people separate the two worlds of "science" and "religion". Seeing as there's so much we are still yet to understand in this universe, it is possible that the two co-exist.

For example, there may be a God or all-powerful entity that created science and evolution as tools and means for creating and sustaining life as we know it.

[VICanucksfan5551]

Oh okay, thanks. I see.

When I as a Muslim believe in Allah, I am not making any claims on His behalf. If I did, I agree, it'd be worthless and wrong. However, I believe He has made claims about Himself, and that we can find them in the Qur'an and hadith al qudsi. True, the reality of it is incomprehensable, but the meaning is not. IE: Allah is a being with hands... the meaning Okay, we believe He has hands BUT the reality? We don't know, incomprehensable, it's nothing like we know.

[Jai604]

Consistent with Islamic theology. God is The Creator and also The Sustainer. Also the Law-Giver in the sense of creating the laws of the creation as well ie: gravity, and other physic laws.

[Buddhas Hand]

i have posted this before in another religion based thread , i feel that it deals with the , "metaphysical " in several ways and verbalises my beliefs on this subject ,

Professor Brian Cox, God, and the Universe

28 Mar 2011 1 Comment

by sbraynein All posts, End-of-life issuesTags: death and dying, Dr Peter Fenwick, end-of-life experiences, Professor Brian Cox, the cosmos, The Wonders of the Universe

It’s Professor Brian Cox who dunnit for me, in the sitting room, with his BBC series, The Wonders of the Universe.

His extraordinary programmes have fundamentally changed my understanding of God. Although I have never been a practicing Christian, I have always had a profound belief in God as an external force. By this I mean an omniscient intelligence that guides and nurtures me. My interpretation of this God-like presence is very personal, but it has given me great comfort in times of despair, and has provided a moral cornerstone for how to live my life.

My belief in a benevolent force stems from what I can only describe as a mystical experience. It happened twenty-odd years ago, on, of all places, a train. I had been working through some emotional issues, and was feeling raw and vulnerable, and in need of a break. A friend in Dorset had invited me to stay the weekend, and I was on my way there.

I can remember gazing out of the window, looking forward to seeing my friend, when suddenly it felt as if the curtains in my forehead parted, and everything else around me disappeared. I found myself ‘floating’ upwards in a kind of dusty light, which was full of sparkles, and being infused by a feeling of peace and serenity that I had never experienced before.

I then became aware of a lion-yellow colour streaming out from my left side. At the same time, I was filled with an understanding that should I dive into this stream of colour, I would be able to confront the many mistakes I had made and learn from them. There was no sense of judgement or blame, but rather a loving, wry knowing.

I was just thinking, ‘hmm, that’s seem like an interesting idea,’ when I ‘received’ a message, which told me, ‘Life is only an experience. It’s how you perceive the experience that matters.’ With that, the curtains in my forehead swung closed, and I was back on the train.

I suppose the whole thing may not have lasted more than a couple of seconds, but for many months afterwards, I found myself mourning the loss of that ultimate peace and serenity. In fact, even though it’s so many years later, I can still feel the same depth of loss as I write about it.

At the time, I interpreted this experience as an encounter with some kind of next-world energy that would greet me when I died. It was a huge comfort, and has stopped me fearing the actual moment of death. As I said to a friend, ‘If that’s what is waiting for me when my time comes, then Yes Please!’

It also made me aware of the importance of doing the best I can with who I am, and to keep developing spiritually and emotionally. I also realised that I had to start taking responsibility for everything I created, because there seemed to be some kind of spiritual reckoning which happens after death.

However, since working with Dr Peter Fenwick on a research project into end-of-life experiences, I am now convinced that spiritual reckoning is an on-going life experience, which heightens as we approach death. Psychologists and doctors have recognised that spiritual distress is caused by unresolved shame, anger, blame or resentment, or ruptured relationships which have never been healed. Our end-of-life study suggests that we are innately called to do this before we die, and become increasingly anxious when these issues are not addressed.

So it’s been quite an experience to watch Professor Brian Cox explaining how the Universe came into being, and how planet Earth itself is merely a grain of sand within our Milky Way galaxy, and that our Milky Way is one of billions of other galaxies that ebb and flow throughout the cosmos.

I realise now that my sense of a bigger external existence comes from the fact, as Professor Cox explains, that we are made up from atoms found through the Universe. The vastness of the Universe actually lives inside us, so no wonder we organically experience a force superior to human life.

But, as Professor Cox points out, in the greater scheme of things, human life with alls its failing and foibles, together with this beautiful blue planet we live on, are of very little relevance. We and our Earth merely exist because of the Big Bang that created our known Universe some 14 billion years ago.

Hearing him talk, and seeing the spectacular photographs from the Hubble Space Telescope of stars, nebulae and galaxies, I realised that the ’God’ I believed in doesn’t exist. But, perhaps my mystical vision tapped into an unconscious archetypal energy that has evolved over the 75,000 years since our homo sapiens ancestors first walked out of Africa, and began to try to make sense of life through their creation stories.

As Carl Jung, the father of modern psychiatry said, the relationship between the conscious mind and the unconscious mind is the same as a cork (conscious mind) bobbing on a vast ocean (unconscious mind).

As I am coming to terms with the loss of my God, I am aware that my faith in some kind of existence beyond human life is still strong. I will never forget that feeling of peace and serenity which welcomed me into that other world, or how important it is to make the very best of life that I am living right now. But it doesn’t really matter what happens to me after I die, because I – and you – are destined to return to the same stardust that made us in the first place

[KoreanHockeyFan]

No...God comes from the realization that one of the possibilities of how the universe came to be was that it was created.

For myself, Christianity is what aligns with me. I align with Christianity.

Again, religion is man made.

Belief in a creator has nothing to do with religion - I believed in a creator long before I came to religion.

"Sky father"? Please...

Of course Religion is "connected" to God - that's how we try to explain God.

[Satan's Evil Twin]

Always nice to see Christians denounce religion.

[Super19]

i have posted this before in another religion based thread , i feel that it deals with the , "metaphysical " in several ways and verbalises my beliefs on this subject ,

Professor Brian Cox, God, and the Universe

28 Mar 2011 1 Comment

by sbraynein All posts, End-of-life issuesTags: death and dying, Dr Peter Fenwick, end-of-life experiences, Professor Brian Cox, the cosmos, The Wonders of the Universe

It’s Professor Brian Cox who dunnit for me, in the sitting room, with his BBC series, The Wonders of the Universe.

His extraordinary programmes have fundamentally changed my understanding of God. Although I have never been a practicing Christian, I have always had a profound belief in God as an external force. By this I mean an omniscient intelligence that guides and nurtures me. My interpretation of this God-like presence is very personal, but it has given me great comfort in times of despair, and has provided a moral cornerstone for how to live my life.

My belief in a benevolent force stems from what I can only describe as a mystical experience. It happened twenty-odd years ago, on, of all places, a train. I had been working through some emotional issues, and was feeling raw and vulnerable, and in need of a break. A friend in Dorset had invited me to stay the weekend, and I was on my way there.

I can remember gazing out of the window, looking forward to seeing my friend, when suddenly it felt as if the curtains in my forehead parted, and everything else around me disappeared. I found myself ‘floating’ upwards in a kind of dusty light, which was full of sparkles, and being infused by a feeling of peace and serenity that I had never experienced before.

I then became aware of a lion-yellow colour streaming out from my left side. At the same time, I was filled with an understanding that should I dive into this stream of colour, I would be able to confront the many mistakes I had made and learn from them. There was no sense of judgement or blame, but rather a loving, wry knowing.

I was just thinking, ‘hmm, that’s seem like an interesting idea,’ when I ‘received’ a message, which told me, ‘Life is only an experience. It’s how you perceive the experience that matters.’ With that, the curtains in my forehead swung closed, and I was back on the train.

I suppose the whole thing may not have lasted more than a couple of seconds, but for many months afterwards, I found myself mourning the loss of that ultimate peace and serenity. In fact, even though it’s so many years later, I can still feel the same depth of loss as I write about it.

At the time, I interpreted this experience as an encounter with some kind of next-world energy that would greet me when I died. It was a huge comfort, and has stopped me fearing the actual moment of death. As I said to a friend, ‘If that’s what is waiting for me when my time comes, then Yes Please!’

It also made me aware of the importance of doing the best I can with who I am, and to keep developing spiritually and emotionally. I also realised that I had to start taking responsibility for everything I created, because there seemed to be some kind of spiritual reckoning which happens after death.

However, since working with Dr Peter Fenwick on a research project into end-of-life experiences, I am now convinced that spiritual reckoning is an on-going life experience, which heightens as we approach death. Psychologists and doctors have recognised that spiritual distress is caused by unresolved shame, anger, blame or resentment, or ruptured relationships which have never been healed. Our end-of-life study suggests that we are innately called to do this before we die, and become increasingly anxious when these issues are not addressed.

So it’s been quite an experience to watch Professor Brian Cox explaining how the Universe came into being, and how planet Earth itself is merely a grain of sand within our Milky Way galaxy, and that our Milky Way is one of billions of other galaxies that ebb and flow throughout the cosmos.

I realise now that my sense of a bigger external existence comes from the fact, as Professor Cox explains, that we are made up from atoms found through the Universe. The vastness of the Universe actually lives inside us, so no wonder we organically experience a force superior to human life.

But, as Professor Cox points out, in the greater scheme of things, human life with alls its failing and foibles, together with this beautiful blue planet we live on, are of very little relevance. We and our Earth merely exist because of the Big Bang that created our known Universe some 14 billion years ago.

Hearing him talk, and seeing the spectacular photographs from the Hubble Space Telescope of stars, nebulae and galaxies, I realised that the ’God’ I believed in doesn’t exist. But, perhaps my mystical vision tapped into an unconscious archetypal energy that has evolved over the 75,000 years since our homo sapiens ancestors first walked out of Africa, and began to try to make sense of life through their creation stories.

As Carl Jung, the father of modern psychiatry said, the relationship between the conscious mind and the unconscious mind is the same as a cork (conscious mind) bobbing on a vast ocean (unconscious mind).

As I am coming to terms with the loss of my God, I am aware that my faith in some kind of existence beyond human life is still strong. I will never forget that feeling of peace and serenity which welcomed me into that other world, or how important it is to make the very best of life that I am living right now. But it doesn’t really matter what happens to me after I die, because I – and you – are destined to return to the same stardust that made us in the first place

[JeremyW]

A quote commonly used in Computer Security and Mathematics:

"You cannot prove the integrity of the system from within the system."

You cannot prove god does or does not exist from within the system.

[Heretic]

Always nice to see Christians denounce religion.

[Satan's Evil Twin]

Now you're just sounding like a regular JW.

[Super19]

A quote commonly used in Computer Security and Mathematics:

"You cannot prove the integrity of the system from within the system."

You cannot prove god does or does not exist from within the system.

[hsedin33]

OR..

Everyone can just admit that they really have no idea..

But we don't want to admit that, do we We humans think we are all knowing and all powerful don't we?

We are just procurring ways or ideas of beleiving that we will avoid death somehow. Fear wearing a mask of arrogance. As if death is some unnaturel terrible thing. Remember death happens to every thing ever created, ever, so how can it be bad?

Beleifs dont work because they are hollow and devoid of truth, thats why people try to push it on others. They think if more people beleive it, it makes it seem more real. You look inside, and see you don't know who you are or what god is, and as humans we are taught to not know is to be wrong. But this is incorrect, to admit that you dont know is the beginning of going deeper. You are the infinite mystery of everything, the source of the infinite, of everything. Just stop getting caught in your computer mind, and see you're always and already completely here and completely free. You don't need to carry a single beleif in your being to be fully what you are. You are the awareness of belelifs, not the beleifs themselves.

[Sharpshooter]

No...God comes from the realization that one of the possibilities of how the universe came to be was that it was created.

For myself, Christianity is what aligns with me. I align with Christianity.

Again, religion is man made.

Belief in a creator has nothing to do with religion - I believed in a creator long before I came to religion.

"Sky father"? Please...

Of course Religion is "connected" to God - that's how we try to explain God.

[Jai604]

For me, it's not about about proving other people wrong. For me that's not even the issue.

It's the abandonment of reason and logic for superstition and mysticism. It's knowingly choosing to believe that something exists when there is no evidence. It's making the decision to enslave oneself to a supreme being who for all intents and purposes, provides us with nothing. If we are to believe god is as he is described in the bible, he is vengeful and intolerant. Why anyone would want to be subservient to such a god, I cannot understand.

What is the need for this sky father figure? Can we not as humans justify our actions without an omnipotent supervisor? Should we not, instead of looking to the sky for cause and reason, place the responsibility of our actions solely upon ourselves? Why do we need to be loved by an all-father figure?

If we instead spent all the time and energy spent loving this non-existent deity and instead spent it loving our fellow man, we'd all be better off.

seriously.......wut?