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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#631 dajusta

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:07 AM

Are you comparing being able to identify a limerick as an english speaking person with the fluent understanding of ancient hebrew that would be required to read and decipher the bible in its unmolested form?


Before we seriously go further, can you accept the fact that there are methods to determine whether or not genesis can be deemed a certain genre?

You are being particularly facetious with your argument right now and I find it absolutely fruitless to even speak further.

To say biblical hebrew cannot be labelled as a genre is like saying Nordic scripture can't be seen as mythological either. There are thousands of scholars out there who do absolutely diligent work on manuscripts. Don't take my word for it, if you question it why don't you go out and do your own research?

If you are genuinely seeking more on the topic - consider this.

Biblical Hebrew in its unmolested form is still a language being spoken today by the most traditional Jewish rabbis.

Thousands of scholars study and memorize scripture every day.

The bible is a wide range of poetic and historical works, works that are very easily distinguished through cross-references as to determine what genre they are.

Need more credible evidence?

Edited by dajusta, 30 August 2012 - 02:10 AM.

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#632 Sharpshooter

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:08 AM

I'm trying to trace your logic:

Universe allowing only one God = extraodinary?

Is that your logic?

Did you build for yourself some sort of condition, that a universe must have multiple gods if gods themselves exist? Therefore if only one of this thing exists, it is rare, therefore it is supernatural and extraordinary? Was this your logic? If so, can you see how obtusely ethnocentric you are?


This has nothing to do with ethnocentricity, since most major religions perpetuate the 'one god' claim.

However, you still don't seem to have the ability to comprehend a simple sentence.

Allow me to try once again. You believe there is only one god, yes? You don't believe there are any other gods in the universe, yes? You believe that this one god created the universe, yes?

By that logic then.....having only one of something....makes that thing, whatever it is, not ordinary......if something is not ordinary, that means it is extraordinary.

Do you understand the logic of that now??

Clearly. Did you listen to the way he spoke? Implying that one is stupid for having different beliefs will only deter people.


Nothing is 100% though, remember?....so clearly he wasn't, because an implication isn't 100% irrefutable proof, and therefore you cannot believe it either....because it isn't 100%.


And not to mention when Mr Nye said -

"you're holding the rest of us back"

and then saying

"we need engineers and thinkers"

implying someone religious can't be engineers or thinkers. geez the arrogance is just leaking from him.


He didn't imply, let alone say that the religious couldn't be engineers or 'think'.


What is your method of certainty? How are those evidences? Is there reproducible and irrefutable evidences that point to the bridge between micro evolution and macro evolution?

How do you believe those evidences? Like, what makes you so certain that particular evidence is convincing enough?


My method of certainty lies withing the safeguards of the observations and data collection. Data is evidence. Vestigial structures are reproducable because they are reproduced in many species, with different vestigial structures....and they're irrefutable because if you touch your tailbone, you feel it, as well as the ability to observe other vestigial structures as I pointed out.

Case closed on your micro to macro evolutionary conundrum. Isn't education great?

Edited by Sharpshooter, 30 August 2012 - 02:21 AM.

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#633 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:09 AM

Before we seriously go further, can you accept the fact that there are methods to determine whether or not genesis can be deemed a certain genre?

You are being particularly facetious with your argument right now and I find it absolutely fruitless to even speak further.

To say biblical hebrew cannot be labelled as a genre is like saying Nordic scripture can't be seen as mythological either. There are thousands of scholars out there who do absolutely diligent work on manuscripts. Don't take my word for it, if you question it why don't you go out and do your own research?


I'm trying to figure out what the h..e..double hockey sticks you are trying to argue here?
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#634 dajusta

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:14 AM

I'm trying to figure out what the h..e..double hockey sticks you are trying to argue here?


What I'm trying to argue?

Dude forget it. Go back to the quotes.
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#635 dajusta

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:16 AM

This has nothing to do with ethnocentricity, since most major religions perpetuate the 'one god' claim.

However, you still don't seem to have the ability to comprehend a simple sentence.

Allow me to try once again. You believe there is only one god, yes? You don't believe there are any other gods in the universe, yes? You believe that this one god created the universe, yes?

By that logic then.....having only one of something....makes that thing, whatever it is, not ordinary......if something is not ordinary, that means it is extraordinary.

Do you understand the logic of that now??



Nothing is 100% though, remember?....so clearly he wasn't, because an implication isn't 100% irrefutable proof, and therefore you cannot believe it either....because it isn't 100%.




He didn't imply, let alone say that the religious couldn't be engineers or 'think'.




My method of certainty lies withing the safeguards of the observations and data collection. Data is evidence. Vestigial structures are reproducable because they are reproduced in many species, with different vestigial structures....and their irrefutable because if you touch your tailbone, you feel it, as well as the ability to observe other vestigial structures as I pointed out.

Case closed on your micro to macro evolutionary conundrum. Isn't education great?


So by your logic since there is only one universe, and not multiple universes, the universe itself is a extraordinary thing.

You are really losing it man.. to help you out a bit, just because there is arguably ONE god in the universe doesn't make him extra-ordinary. According to you, this GOD is extraordinary because it is outside the means of YOUR understanding of what ordinary is.

Wonderful, observations and data collection lead to your belief in the theory of evolution. Are you 100% certain? or 99%?

Edited by dajusta, 30 August 2012 - 02:18 AM.

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#636 dajusta

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:21 AM

Another fruitless debate tonight.

Here's my final words tonight - Sharp if you have observation and data collection to be your source of belief in the theory of evolution, then let me tell you there is an equal amount of observation and data collection on this thing we call GOD.

You just choose to ignore the evidence and conveniently reject those evidence because for some reason, it isn't "empirical" enough for you.

I can admit to believe in evolution. Can you believe to admit a God MAY exist?
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#637 Sharpshooter

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:21 AM

Predictive empirical evidence? Dude. You are losing it.

The bible failed to mention any workings of God. It's purpose isn't to explain God. You fail to understand that.


Nope, you're failing to comprehend, once again. Put down your Greek Bible and pick up an English science textbook. It'll help you understand why it's important that the scientific process be predictive and produce empirical evidence.

Your bible fails to mention a lot of things. Probably because it's a rip off of stories the pre-date it. It's purpose isn't to explain God?? Then why does it bother explaining what he did and that he 'loves' you? If the bible wasn't made to explain God then what's with all the explanations of him by people like you based on his acts and commands that come directly from the bible??

Talk about losing it.

To be fair, scientists aren't sure of that either. They have theories, but are willing to admit that that's all it is.. a theory.


To be fair, scientists are still gathering evidence for one of many scenarios. Even the Mars mission is designed to help answer questions about how life could have possibly originated on earth.

Although, if Panspermia is shown to have been the reason for life on Earth, I have no doubt that the religious folk will move their goalposts to Mars by suggesting that God created life there first. :lol:
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#638 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:23 AM

What I'm trying to argue?

Dude forget it. Go back to the quotes.


You said science can prove religion but it can't prove god. If science can prove religion then it can disprove it as well. The problem is whenever it does you get some hooey about how some parts of the bible should be taken literally and others shouldn't. What's next, you're going to tell me Noah's tale was a local flood.
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#639 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:28 AM

There's a lot of thumpers in here claiming they believe in evolution but really cling hard to that 1%.
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#640 Sharpshooter

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:29 AM

So by your logic since there is only one universe, and not multiple universes, the universe itself is a extraordinary thing.

You are really losing it man.. to help you out a bit, just because there is arguably ONE god in the universe doesn't make him extra-ordinary. According to you, this GOD is extraordinary because it is outside the means of YOUR understanding of what ordinary is.

Wonderful, observations and data collection lead to your belief in the theory of evolution. Are you 100% certain? or 99%?


There's no evidence for multiple universes.....there's only evidence for ours.....so yes, this one would be quite extraordinary.

See? If there's also then only one God, then he too is extra ordinary because there's only one of him, which logically means he's not ordinary.

I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around such a simple thing.

I am 99%+/- 1% certain.....which is as close to complete evidence as possible......which is again, way more certainty through actual empirical evidence than a certainty assignment for the existence of a God, based on the man-made compendium of parables and poetry.

Unless you have some other actual evidence for your god?? Do you?
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#641 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:15 AM

This thread last night,


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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#642 Heretic

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:27 AM

This thread last night,


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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#643 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:29 AM

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:frantic: :frantic: :frantic:

Oh wait, I don't give a crap.
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#644 Monty

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:32 AM

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Classy.:picard:

EDIT: Wrong one. Meant for Satan's Evil Twin.

Edited by Monty, 30 August 2012 - 08:33 AM.

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Can you imagine drowning AT a KK Rev concert?

  


i'm pretty sure that's how zombies are born.


#645 Monty

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:35 AM

:frantic: :frantic: :frantic:

Oh wait, I don't give a crap.

Not surprising that you don't.
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Can you imagine drowning AT a KK Rev concert?

  


i'm pretty sure that's how zombies are born.


#646 Heretic

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:42 AM

:frantic: :frantic: :frantic:

Oh wait, I don't give a crap.


Then why did you post something in bad taste?
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#647 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:45 AM

Then why did you post something in bad taste?


You don't understand - I don't care about what the likes of you think. I still care about posting my views when it suits me.

By the way, how's the new property? Housing lots of poor? Giving away your possessions? Living the life of Christ? No? :lol:
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#648 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:57 AM

What a productive thread. :D

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 30 August 2012 - 08:58 AM.

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#649 Heretic

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 09:10 AM

You don't understand - I don't care about what the likes of you think. I still care about posting my views when it suits me.

By the way, how's the new property? Housing lots of poor? Giving away your possessions? Living the life of Christ? No? :lol:


Way to sell your version of how to lead a better life.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#650 dajusta

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 09:25 AM

You said science can prove religion but it can't prove god. If science can prove religion then it can disprove it as well. The problem is whenever it does you get some hooey about how some parts of the bible should be taken literally and others shouldn't. What's next, you're going to tell me Noah's tale was a local flood.


I asserted that religion does not equal God.

If that makes any sense to you, then you will see how fruitless this particular discussion discussion is.

How can science disprove the fact that people go to church? That service starts at 11:00am? That senior luncheon is at 1pm to follow and prayer meetings are Wednesday at 8pm? That's religion.

There's no evidence for multiple universes.....there's only evidence for ours.....so yes, this one would be quite extraordinary.

See? If there's also then only one God, then he too is extra ordinary because there's only one of him, which logically means he's not ordinary.

As for evidences - I do have credible evidences that points to an intelligent and all powerful God. If the logic you formed with the universe being extraordinary holds up, then the universe itself is the biggest evidence for an extraordinary explanation of creation.

I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around such a simple thing.

I am 99%+/- 1% certain.....which is as close to complete evidence as possible......which is again, way more certainty through actual empirical evidence than a certainty assignment for the existence of a God, based on the man-made compendium of parables and poetry.

Unless you have some other actual evidence for your god?? Do you?


Okay this works.

I can agree with you that if God is extraordinary, this universe is extraordinary. Normally, an Atheist would declare that our universe is ordinary - not special at all. (I would even go further and declare humanity is extraordinary too by your logic, since we do not find sentient life anywhere else in the universe).. Is humanity extraordinary to you?

Then my next question to you is, how do you embrace the origins and existence of this extraordinary universe? For an extraordinary universe to exist, it would require some sort of extraordinary explanation (according to you)?

As for evidences - I do have credible evidence. If your logic on our universe is extraordinary holds up, then this extraordinary universe itself is the biggest credible evidence that points to an extraordinary cause.

Edited by dajusta, 30 August 2012 - 09:50 AM.

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#651 Sharpshooter

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 10:06 AM

Okay this works.

I can agree with you that if God is extraordinary, this universe is extraordinary. Normally, an Atheist would declare that our universe is ordinary - not special at all. (I would even go further and declare humanity is extraordinary too by your logic, since we do not find sentient life anywhere else in the universe).. Is humanity extraordinary to you?

Then my next question to you is, how do you embrace the origins and existence of this extraordinary universe? For an extraordinary universe to exist, it would require some sort of extraordinary explanation (according to you)?

As for evidences - I do have credible evidence. If your logic on our universe is extraordinary holds up, then this extraordinary universe itself is the biggest credible evidence that points to an extraordinary cause.



FFS, it's about time you got your head around the simplicity of what I was saying. :picard:

Seeing as we're the only highly intelligent, bi-pedal, sentient, carbon based life-forms that we currently know of that can travel to other planetary bodies, yeah we are extraordinary.

And yeah, this extraordinary universe did require an extraordinary explanation for its existence....and that's why scientists went out in search for one and has come up with one. I'd try to explain it to you, but i'm wary of doing so, because you seem to have trouble grasping the simple definition of 'extraordinary', let alone the Theory of Evolution. Attempting to describe virtual particles to you may make my head explode.

What is this evidence of yours you speak of? Let's have it then.

And no, the evidence that something natural exists is not evidence that it was caused into existence by an intelligent designer. It's only evidence that it exists. For example, a rock is not evidence of a god....it's evidence for the assertion that it is an aggregate of minerals formed through natural processes over geological periods of time. A rock does not prove God, nor does it prove that it was the creation of an intelligent designer. In that way, the universe's existence and reality isn't inherently evidence for God or for an intelligent designer. Again, rock =/= intelligent design/designer......which is equal to saying that, universe =/= intelligent design/designer. Much like we studied and discovered the natural process by which a rock is formed, so too have we begun and started answering the questions of how the universe began and was formed and evolved and what's going to happen to it as time goes on.
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#652 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:08 AM

I asserted that religion does not equal God.

If that makes any sense to you, then you will see how fruitless this particular discussion discussion is.

How can science disprove the fact that people go to church? That service starts at 11:00am? That senior luncheon is at 1pm to follow and prayer meetings are Wednesday at 8pm? That's religion.


Really, that's what you think religion is? Webster disagrees.

The fact of the matter is science has disproved religion over and over and christianity has really taken a beating. The problem is you don't fight fair. Whenever a scientific theory disproves a particular part of a holy book we get a new interpretation and what was once a religious fact becomes metaphor. Evolution is a particularly sensitive subject when it comes to this and it has become one of the last bastians of chritian resistance. Many christians still outright deny evolution and even try to have creationism taught in a science class. Others accept evolution but bastardize it to suit their beliefs.

You have said yourself that you have your own version of evolution that fits within your religious beliefs but you refuse to share what that is and I think we all know why.

The truth of the matter is evolution completely disproves religion that is why so many are clinging to that 1% chance (rounded up) that it is wrong. Science has disproved religion but the religious are too stubborn/stupid/brainwashed to admit it. Evolution is the final nail in the coffin.

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#653 Pineapples

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:23 AM

Nothing is 100% though, remember?....so clearly he wasn't, because an implication isn't 100% irrefutable proof, and therefore you cannot believe it either....because it isn't 100%.


That didn't answer my question.

To be fair, scientists are still gathering evidence for one of many scenarios. Even the Mars mission is designed to help answer questions about how life could have possibly originated on earth.

Although, if Panspermia is shown to have been the reason for life on Earth, I have no doubt that the religious folk will move their goalposts to Mars by suggesting that God created life there first. :lol:


I never said they weren't still gathering evidence. I said that they acknowledge that it's still just a theory. Perhaps you will learn to do the same.
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#654 Pineapples

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:27 AM

Really, that's what you think religion is? Webster disagrees.

The fact of the matter is science has disproved religion over and over and christianity has really taken a beating. The problem is you don't fight fair. Whenever a scientific theory disproves a particular part of a holy book we get a new interpretation and what was once a religious fact becomes metaphor. Evolution is a particularly sensitive subject when it comes to this and it has become one of the last bastians of chritian resistance. Many christians still outright deny evolution and even try to have creationism taught in a science class. Others accept evolution but bastardize it to suit their beliefs.

You have said yourself that you have your own version of evolution that fits within your religious beliefs but you refuse to share what that is and I think we all know why.

The truth of the matter is evolution completely disproves religion that is why so many are clinging to that 1% chance (rounded up) that it is wrong. Science has disproved religion but the religious are too stubborn/stupid/brainwashed to admit it. Evolution is the final nail in the coffin.


You're right in saying that religious people will try to change the meaning of parts of the Bible when it's disproven (at least some of them anyway). However I disagree with the last paragraph. There is no evidence to disprove a creator. What if God created evolution?
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#655 Sharpshooter

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:42 AM

That didn't answer my question.


Your question is irrelevant since there's no irrefutable 100% certain evidence. Remember?

I never said they weren't still gathering evidence. I said that they acknowledge that it's still just a theory. Perhaps you will learn to do the same.


....said the person who doesn't seem to understand the difference between Theory and theory.
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#656 Sharpshooter

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:44 AM

You're right in saying that religious people will try to change the meaning of parts of the Bible when it's disproven (at least some of them anyway). However I disagree with the last paragraph. There is no evidence to disprove a creator. What if God created evolution?


There is no evidence to prove there's a creator.

In fact the entire universe and everything contained therein has been shown to not need a 'creator'.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 30 August 2012 - 11:44 AM.

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#657 CanuckClown

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:59 AM

There is no evidence to prove there's a creator.

In fact the entire universe and everything contained therein has been shown to not need a 'creator'.


Is this last part true though? I'm not saying it isn't, but I'd like to know how a theory such as The Big Bang and the subsequent dispersal of elements etc. has been proven to be possible to exist without a "creator".*

*By creator I am in no way making reference to an omnipotent entity.
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#658 Sharpshooter

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:34 PM

Is this last part true though? I'm not saying it isn't, but I'd like to know how a theory such as The Big Bang and the subsequent dispersal of elements etc. has been proven to be possible to exist without a "creator".*

*By creator I am in no way making reference to an omnipotent entity.


This is as good a place to start as any. If you want further information about how the universe was able to be created from virtually nothing, i'll be happy to provide a more in-depth link.


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#659 CanuckClown

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:54 PM

This is as good a place to start as any. If you want further information about how the universe was able to be created from virtually nothing, i'll be happy to provide a more in-depth link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddsMNI4be9k


Yes, please do.
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#660 Pineapples

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:58 PM

Your question is irrelevant since there's no irrefutable 100% certain evidence. Remember?



....said the person who doesn't seem to understand the difference between Theory and theory.


Way to take something way out of context. You keep ignoring the question which makes me think you have no answer and are too proud to admit it. Prove me wrong.

And this isn't like the theory of evolution, which actually does have proof. The theory of the origin of life is actually just a theory, an idea, with no concrete evidence.
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