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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#691 dajusta

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 05:37 PM

That's ignorant.


There is a difference between man made religion and God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

Edited by dajusta, 31 August 2012 - 05:37 PM.

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#692 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 06:08 PM

But the Qur'an was written by men, so couldn't they have been making claims on his behalf when they wrote it? Same with the Bible and any other Holy books? There has always been a power struggle, a battle of hearts and minds between political and spiritual leaders, even in ancient tribal times the Chief was almost always in a battle of control with the High Priest.


and what better way to rule the rulers than to tell them there is a god , and an afterlife , and you [pope , medicine man,high priest] are the voice of god and you have to obey a certain set of rules or your after life will consist of a lot of pain and suffering .
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#693 Phil_314

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 11:38 PM

*BUMP*

1) No it's really not. What's more flawed is the fact your argument necessitates a set of new set of laws which can't be known or understood by every single living known entity in order to prove (or at least rationalize) the existence of an omnipotent, omnipresent entity, the origin of belief of whom was around the time when human knowledge was relatively very little.


My mistake with wording-- in your original quote you said, "Surely he who creates those laws would have to be explainable through them. However, since god cannot be explained through science"

let me stop you right there. He IS explainable by the laws that govern the physical/ natural realm, though His power, being manifested/ demonstrated in it, is certainly NOT limited by it.

From the Bible, in Romans 1:19-20

Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


However, Paul included the consequences of the people ignoring God and His power which has been demonstrated, in Romans 1:28

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.


I'm only quoting the Bible here.

So, to conclude, it's not that God's existence needs to be proven by what's not known, it's that evidence of His existence, in nature and other creation, has not been heeded.

Edited by MessiNacity10, 17 September 2012 - 12:15 AM.

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#694 Remy

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 11:49 PM

So, to conclude, it's not that God's existence needs to be proven by what's not known, it's that evidence of His existence, in nature and other creation, has not been heeded by the people who choose to ignore it.


I really hope you're just trolling.There are so many amazingly thorough explanations for everything we see around us that are completely independent of any necessity for god(s) that observing what we know as creation is a much stronger argument against god(s) than it is for. We know how so many things came to be without the need for a god(s).

I don't really like your wording, either. When you say "choose to ignore" you imply that, deep down, we all know god(s) exist and that it's a conscious decision to be ignorant. It's like saying "heads I win, tails you lose" when flipping a coin. It doesn't work that way; I'm not ignoring anything, thanks.
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#695 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:08 AM

There is a difference between man made religion and God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY


^^^^Truly amazing. This is a humble man, simply explaining his faith from his perspective. Not by his actions so that other can praise him. I despise organized religion but hear and respect the words of sacred texts. They are guidelines and options on what to do next. PEACE LOVE and HAPPINESS spread it to the youth. Take it for what you will and seek out your own truths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNGqrzkFp_4&feature=related

Edited by vanfan73, 17 September 2012 - 12:22 AM.

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#696 Wolfman Jack

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:17 AM

Stephen Roberts, an Atheist talks to a theist: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
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#697 White Goodman

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 05:44 AM

I would like to know why god (if he exists) is such a d**k. Isn't he supposed to love us, because quite obviously he does the exact opposite. Was it god who caused that earthquake in Japan last year? How about that tsunami in Indonesia in 2004? All i'm saying is that god clearly has no regard for human life.
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#698 dajusta

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:45 AM

I really hope you're just trolling.There are so many amazingly thorough explanations for everything we see around us that are completely independent of any necessity for god(s) that observing what we know as creation is a much stronger argument against god(s) than it is for. We know how so many things came to be without the need for a god(s).

I don't really like your wording, either. When you say "choose to ignore" you imply that, deep down, we all know god(s) exist and that it's a conscious decision to be ignorant. It's like saying "heads I win, tails you lose" when flipping a coin. It doesn't work that way; I'm not ignoring anything, thanks.


As science was was first propelled into study, it wasn't to discredit or to bury God. When Isaac Newton discovered the laws and constants of gravity, he didn't put God to death. He was even more amazed at the complexity of life, and he cherished God so much more.

Just because we can explain things now does not prove that God exists. In fact, the more we discover, the more we actually find out that we DON'T know. Ever heard of quarks?

I would like to know why god (if he exists) is such a d**k. Isn't he supposed to love us, because quite obviously he does the exact opposite. Was it god who caused that earthquake in Japan last year? How about that tsunami in Indonesia in 2004? All i'm saying is that god clearly has no regard for human life.


With all the disaster going around, it seems like God has abandon us, but really it is the nature of suffering that we see.

God is love, so in order to assert love into the universe, there needs to be its opposite. Hate/suffering. Without hate and suffering, there is no notion of love or righteousness. With the notion of suffering, then we have the existence of things like death.

You may ask, why so MUCH disaster, with so MANY people dying, isn't that absurd? Well let me ask, when we assert the concept of "much", when is it "not much"? Instead of 6 million Jews dying in the Holocaust, how about 5.9 million. Would that fly under the radar of your assertion that God is a pompous d**k? Or 5.8million? Or 5.7million? etc etc.. How about 1 Jew?

You can't really look at the spectrum of suffering and use "intense suffering" as an argument to disprove God.. because there is no line to draw to what is intense suffering or little suffering.. it's relative.

Maybe this isn't answering your question. Maybe you are seeking why suffering exists or why God allows suffering. Well let's put it this way - Without suffering, there would be no love. God wants love, so he allows suffering. God allows free will. Free will = good choices or bad choices. Only by removing free will can we avoid suffering.. but also removes love.. So would you rather, have no love and no suffering, but no choices? or the alternative?
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#699 Remy

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:02 AM

Just because we can explain things now does not prove that God exists. In fact, the more we discover, the more we actually find out that we DON'T know. Ever heard of quarks?


I'm really not sure what your point was, but this is what I heard:

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Edited by Remy, 17 September 2012 - 12:00 PM.

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#700 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:14 PM

If people believe that brain washed alien souls are the cause for all the worlds problems then people will believe anything.
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#701 Sharpshooter

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:24 PM

As science was was first propelled into study, it wasn't to discredit or to bury God. When Isaac Newton discovered the laws and constants of gravity, he didn't put God to death. He was even more amazed at the complexity of life, and he cherished God so much more.

Just because we can explain things now does not prove that God exists. In fact, the more we discover, the more we actually find out that we DON'T know. Ever heard of quarks?



With all the disaster going around, it seems like God has abandon us, but really it is the nature of suffering that we see.

God is love, so in order to assert love into the universe, there needs to be its opposite. Hate/suffering. Without hate and suffering, there is no notion of love or righteousness. With the notion of suffering, then we have the existence of things like death.

You may ask, why so MUCH disaster, with so MANY people dying, isn't that absurd? Well let me ask, when we assert the concept of "much", when is it "not much"? Instead of 6 million Jews dying in the Holocaust, how about 5.9 million. Would that fly under the radar of your assertion that God is a pompous d**k? Or 5.8million? Or 5.7million? etc etc.. How about 1 Jew?

You can't really look at the spectrum of suffering and use "intense suffering" as an argument to disprove God.. because there is no line to draw to what is intense suffering or little suffering.. it's relative.

Maybe this isn't answering your question. Maybe you are seeking why suffering exists or why God allows suffering. Well let's put it this way - Without suffering, there would be no love. God wants love, so he allows suffering. God allows free will. Free will = good choices or bad choices. Only by removing free will can we avoid suffering.. but also removes love.. So would you rather, have no love and no suffering, but no choices? or the alternative?


Sir Isaac Newton, as brilliant as he was, was in err when he chose to explain things that he couldn't explain scientifically(i believe the wonky orbital paths of planets in our solar system around the Sun) by saying that the explanation lay in the existence of God. The problem with that was that this problem that couldn't be solved by him and which remained a mystery to him was eventually solved and answered later on.

And that's the problem with bringing God as an explanation into the mysteries of the natural universe. It's called the 'God of The Gaps' fallacy. When one is faced with something they don't understand or a natural mystery, some assign the explanation to their God.

We know that throughout history the things attributed to God as an answer to questions and mysteries has receded, while our knowledge, intelligence, education, systems of observations, and research grows.

Science eliminates the need for a God as an answer. You, this planet and the universe didn't 'need' a God as an explanation as to how you got here and why you are the way you are, anymore than we need to assign God in order to explain why planets travel around the Sun the way they do.

Your God used to be an explanation for almost everything....because we as a species knew almost nothing. As our knowledge grows, the need for God as an explanation recedes. We're evolving as a species, and the God myth is one of the last remnants of a time where when we, as a species, were looking for an answer we had had one that was easy to accept and accessible by everyone. This clinging to supernatural stories and mythological sources of explanations are like a vestigial appendage that we as a species don't really need anymore, like our Coccyx, aka tailbone.

Some of us in our species have psychologically evolved past the safety blanket of supernaturality. I hope people such as yourself will eventually too, albeit i'm sure kicking and screaming.

This is why a formal post-secondary education in the sciences(Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc) and Social Science (Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology, etc) is so critical for so many. The less we're educated the more susceptible we are to reverting to our ancestral proclivities towards Sun(Son) worship.
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#702 wtpasc

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 01:18 PM

All the scientists decided to tell God to retire, now that they had figured out a way to make a human being from the soil itself. So, a delegation went in His holy presence, and said Lord, now that we are independent and we are creators in our own right, give us the power and retire.

The Holy One said, indeed, what have you accomplished. The scientists said that they can now independently make a man, the highest of his creation! The Holy One said, okay let me see it done. So the scientist went to pick up some dirt... and the Lord answered... no, no, no... Dont use MY dirt I Create your own!!
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#703 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 01:25 PM

LOOK WHAT JESUS DID.

LOOK WHAT JESUS DID.

LOOK WHAT JESUS DID.
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#704 dajusta

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:36 PM

Sir Isaac Newton, as brilliant as he was, was in err when he chose to explain things that he couldn't explain scientifically(i believe the wonky orbital paths of planets in our solar system around the Sun) by saying that the explanation lay in the existence of God. The problem with that was that this problem that couldn't be solved by him and which remained a mystery to him was eventually solved and answered later on.

And that's the problem with bringing God as an explanation into the mysteries of the natural universe. It's called the 'God of The Gaps' fallacy. When one is faced with something they don't understand or a natural mystery, some assign the explanation to their God.

We know that throughout history the things attributed to God as an answer to questions and mysteries has receded, while our knowledge, intelligence, education, systems of observations, and research grows.

Science eliminates the need for a God as an answer. You, this planet and the universe didn't 'need' a God as an explanation as to how you got here and why you are the way you are, anymore than we need to assign God in order to explain why planets travel around the Sun the way they do.

Your God used to be an explanation for almost everything....because we as a species knew almost nothing. As our knowledge grows, the need for God as an explanation recedes. We're evolving as a species, and the God myth is one of the last remnants of a time where when we, as a species, were looking for an answer we had had one that was easy to accept and accessible by everyone. This clinging to supernatural stories and mythological sources of explanations are like a vestigial appendage that we as a species don't really need anymore, like our Coccyx, aka tailbone.

Some of us in our species have psychologically evolved past the safety blanket of supernaturality. I hope people such as yourself will eventually too, albeit i'm sure kicking and screaming.

This is why a formal post-secondary education in the sciences(Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc) and Social Science (Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology, etc) is so critical for so many. The less we're educated the more susceptible we are to reverting to our ancestral proclivities towards Sun(Son) worship.


You are missing the point.

Science, as it first started out, was not used to take God out of the equation. But to show us how God has set things in motion. It's so mistakenly diagnosed "God of the Gaps" if I declare 'I don't know, only God does', when really the God of the Gaps is more of a 'We Will Never Know'. The former recognizes that we will eventually find out, but it doesn't remove God from the picture. The latter is attributing the unknown ONLY to God.

It's like figuring out exactly how your hard drive or soild state drive actually functions, and then exclaiming the manufacturer doesn't exist. How absurd is that. Just because we know how the sun emits light and how the moon reflects light, does not undermine an all supreme being that created everything.

BTW - this is all skeptic misunderstanding on one point - that theists NEED ONLY God to explain life. Well this isn't the case. Many scientists are Christian. Technology and scientific research DOES NOT take God out of the picture. While we are at it, Einstein's findings on the theory of relativity even PROVES God's existence. So if you want to go down the path of scientific research, its undeniable to talk about that.

Edited by dajusta, 17 September 2012 - 04:40 PM.

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#705 Sharpshooter

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:55 PM

You are missing the point.

Science, as it first started out, was not used to take God out of the equation. But to show us how God has set things in motion. It's so mistakenly diagnosed "God of the Gaps" if I declare 'I don't know, only God does', when really the God of the Gaps is more of a 'We Will Never Know'. The former recognizes that we will eventually find out, but it doesn't remove God from the picture. The latter is attributing the unknown ONLY to God.

It's like figuring out exactly how your hard drive or soild state drive actually functions, and then exclaiming the manufacturer doesn't exist. How absurd is that. Just because we know how the sun emits light and how the moon reflects light, does not undermine an all supreme being that created everything.

BTW - this is all skeptic misunderstanding on one point - that theists NEED ONLY God to explain life. Well this isn't the case. Many scientists are Christian. Technology and scientific research DOES NOT take God out of the picture. While we are at it, Einstein's findings on the theory of relativity even PROVES God's existence. So if you want to go down the path of scientific research, its undeniable to talk about that.


No, i think it is you, who is missing the point......by a country mile.

ToR proves God's existence?? Oh, i'd love to hear this. Please do tell.
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#706 Nevlach

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 05:33 PM

God was need for this universe, life, and consciousness to exist.

God was not needed for this universe, life, and consciousness to exist.

Both are statements of faith. Believe what you will.
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#707 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 05:45 PM

God was need for this universe, life, and consciousness to exist.

God was not needed for this universe, life, and consciousness to exist.

Both are statements of faith. Believe what you will.


that why i believe neither , i am not prepared to take something on faith alone .
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#708 Bitter Melon

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:40 PM

There is a difference between man made religion and God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY


ORLY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBo7Z_abiLE

Edited by CAPSLOCK, 17 September 2012 - 06:41 PM.

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#709 Sharpshooter

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:30 PM

God was need for this universe, life, and consciousness to exist.

God was not needed for this universe, life, and consciousness to exist.

Both are statements of faith. Believe what you will.


False equivalency my friend.
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#710 Nevlach

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 07:45 PM

False equivalency my friend.

How?
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#711 Sharpshooter

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:29 PM

How?


You mean you want me to explain the difference between actual knowledge and observation and making crap up??
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#712 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:31 PM

ORLY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBo7Z_abiLE


Thank you for that. When I saw the first video I was pulling my hair out. This guy doesn't hate religion, he hates all religions that aren't his. Like somehow his church is exempt from the definition. Talk about arrogant.

Edit: forgot was

Edited by JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo, 17 September 2012 - 08:49 PM.

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#713 Sharpshooter

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:36 PM

Thank you for that. When I saw the first video I pulling my hair out. This guy doesn't hate religion, he hates all religions that aren't his. Like somehow his church is exempt from the definition. Talk about arrogant.


The guy in the first video was so illogical, I had to turn it off. 'I believe in The Church, the Bible....Jesus......but religion sucks!'

:picard:
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#714 Nevlach

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:40 PM

You mean you want me to explain the difference between actual knowledge and observation and making crap up??

Umm we don't have knowledge for whether or not a "god" is required for the universe (I should say existence in general), life, or consciousness.

It seems to me it's impossible to tell atm.
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#715 Sharpshooter

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:58 PM

Umm we don't have knowledge for whether or not a "god" is required for the universe (I should say existence in general), life, or consciousness.

It seems to me it's impossible to tell atm.



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#716 Nevlach

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:12 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8afGCZ06bE

Yeah I think Lennox deals with Hawking's view pretty well in his book "God and Stephen Hawking: Whose Design is it Anyway?" Great little book only 96 pages and not expensive I would recommend it. I read it in a day last Spring. Check out the reviews on Goodreads or Amazon anyway.

Plus even if it were given that the universe could create itself out of nothing (and that's a big given) it still wouldn't answer the questions of whether a god was necessary for life or consciousness. Not to mention if "laws like gravity" existed then that would be something and not nothing. Which just raises the question are the laws of physics eternal? Did they always exist or did they have a cause? Anyway you look at it, whether god, or the laws of nature, something had to always exist and we don't seem to be in a position to say what that something was for sure.
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#717 Bitter Melon

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:26 PM

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Is it even relevant though? Assuming that there is a god (and that's a big assumption) it's taken no role in the universe so far, and I can guarantee you it isn't any being we've conceived of so far.

The most you can argue for is a deistic view.

Edited by CAPSLOCK, 17 September 2012 - 09:31 PM.

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#718 Nevlach

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:28 PM

Is it even relevant though? Assuming that there is a god (and that's a big assumption) it's taken no role in the universe so far, and I can guarantee you it isn't any being we've conceived of so far.

The most you can argue for is a deistic view.

And whats wrong with Deism :)

I suppose it's not relevant for how we live our lives but it makes great conversation!
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#719 Standing_Tall#37

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:36 PM

The guy in the first video was so illogical, I had to turn it off. 'I believe in The Church, the Bible....Jesus......but religion sucks!'

:picard:

He should have looked into the Egyptian book of the dead maybe he could have realized Jesus was a direct plagiarism of Horus. Same story, only the names change.
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#720 Bitter Melon

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:36 PM

And whats wrong with Deism :)


It just seems like an unnecessary add on.

"Oh, we have all these scientific advancements detailing the origin of the universe. We understand how matter, space, time and energy functioned in the early universe. We can explain the physics behind the point of origination, and we have a much broader scope of the grander machinations of the universe. By the way, a god may have helped."
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