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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#781 Super19

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:37 AM


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#782 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:37 AM

On? The part where man was created out of dust? Or where god made woman out of his rib? Or the part where bats are birds?

And what did those pesky giants get up to? Haven't seen them in a while.


Pickin and choosin.
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#783 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:38 AM

Pickin and choosin.


Is Frodo Baggins real?
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#784 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:40 AM

Is Frodo Baggins real?


Maybe not hear on middle earth, he exists outside of this realm. You wouldn't understand.
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#785 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:42 AM

Maybe not hear on middle earth, he exists outside of this realm. You wouldn't understand.


At least you atheists can keep up with me intellectually.

Quite a shame.

How do you know what is fiction and non-fiction? Is there some sort of difference between a news report and a poem? Genesis and 1 Kings are the same.

It isn't picking and choosing. It's the study of literature.
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#786 Bitter Melon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:45 AM

Yeah it's called poetry and literary devices.

Yao Ming looks pretty big for someone who's only 5 foot tall, no?


So, the infallible word of god perpetrates falsehoods in the name of poetry?

Also, this means Yao Ming is not a human at all, but an entirely separate race called a "nephilim".
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#787 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:46 AM

So, the infallible word of god perpetrates falsehoods in the name of poetry?

Also, this means Yao Ming is not a human at all, but an entirely separate race called a "nephilim".


How is it falsehood if the poetic device is allegory? That's like claiming JRR Tolkien is nothing but a lie.

Edited by dajusta, 18 September 2012 - 12:47 AM.

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#788 Bitter Melon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:47 AM

How is it falsehood if the poetic device is allegory? That's like claiming JRR Tolkien is a beast of a liar.


I never claimed the Lord of the Rings is the infallible word of god.
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#789 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:49 AM

I never claimed the Lord of the Rings is the infallible word of god.


That's irrelevant unless you think the Word of God must always be read literally.

Do you think so? That the Word of God must always be read literally?
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#790 Nevlach

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:50 AM

How does Lennox 'deal' with Hawking's point about the laws of physics being necessary for this universes creation and not the need of a creator?

If you've read it, great, you can give me a summarized version of his point that address Hawking.


Although, you still didn't address the false equivalency issue. Do you actually think that I require a 'faith' in gravity in order to observe it, or to understand(some of us) how gravitational forces allow for the creation of universes, particularly ours, since we can observe, but also other one as theorized in M-Theory?

If you misspoke, then that's fine, but if you want to full-throatedly defend that statement, you're going to have to do better than an unquoted Lennox anecdote.

If the laws of physics can necessarily be shown through calculations, which they have been, that quantum fluctuations can give rise to our universe, then that also shows the unnecessary requirement that a God literally had a hand in the creation of the universe, let alone the creation of humans, or stars, or light, or light before the stars as he apparently is said to have accomplished, somehow.

Consciousness is an evolutionary by-product. I'm really surprised that you of all people are attempting to attribute that to a divine designer. You seem to go through periods of lunacy and lucidity. I'm guessing there's a full moon out tonight. ;)

And many of the laws of physics were created after the big bang. There was no magnetism for example, even immediately after the big bang, as there weren't other physics principles at the very start, of before-hand.

Even if we assume that 'something' always existed, you cannot make the logical leap that that thing was 'god', or any other mythical figurine of the cosmos. That's just bad logic.

Well for starters laws don't do anything unless there is something for them to act on. The law of gravity doesn't cause anything on it's own. Which is why I said there has to be something that is eternal. I have the book A Universe From Nothing but I haven't had time to read it yet. Maybe it'll change my mind when I get around to it but I thought Lennox did a pretty good job in his book of negating Hawking's "Grand Design." I was unaware that we have observed the creation of universes due to gravity :P

What's there to address? We can theorize the gravity has the magical power to create the universe, give life from non life, and then consciousness and agency to that life. But since that's never been observed we have to believe that based on faith no? I'm not attempting to attribute all of it to god, I'm simply saying that at this point in time both beliefs are faith based. Atheists are just too stubborn to admit that they take anything on faith...you think you're sooo logical don't you ;) a complete unbiased impartial observer on a blue speck in the middle of nowhere (actually it's a common illusion of our minds...thinking we are more unbiased than we are).

And I think this could just turn into a semantics game. For example what is god? If something is eternal surely it's not Yahweh or Allah or Zeus etc. It's easy to say the "thing that was eternal" is not "god" if you're idea of god is a man with a beard floating around in the sky.

And nope no full moon but I have been studying since 7am straight...no break...big test tomorrow :s
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#791 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:55 AM

That's irrelevant unless you think the Word of God must always be read literally.

Do you think so? That the Word of God must always be read literally?


Perhaps you can draw a line in the sand on what is literal and what is poetic now so the next time something in the bible is disproved it doesn't simply become metaphor.

Edited by JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo, 18 September 2012 - 12:56 AM.

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#792 Bitter Melon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:55 AM

That's irrelevant unless you think the Word of God must always be read literally.

Do you think so? That the Word of God must always be read literally?


I don't think it is the word of god. But if it were, yeah. I don't know why God would be going on talking about how it's okay to eat four legged insects. You'd think the infallible word of god would be a lot more straight-forward.
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#793 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:57 AM

Perhaps you can draw a line in the sand on what is literal and what is poetic now so the next time something in the bible is disproved it doesn't become metaphor.


Yeah it's called doing your research and finding out the Hebrew idioms and poetically structured passages.

I'm sorry if most fundamentalist Christians out there make us look stupid.. I admit they read everything literally. But that is the wrong approach to scripture.

The bible is meant to be read the way it was intended. So a poem ought to be read like a poem, and historical narrative supposed to be read historically.
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#794 Bitter Melon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:58 AM

Well for starters laws don't do anything unless there is something for them to act on. The law of gravity doesn't cause anything on it's own. Which is why I said there has to be something that is eternal.


There is a big difference between a descriptive law and a prescriptive one.

A descriptive law is when you make an observation and call it a law.

I.E. Objects always fall to the earth. This is due to the law of gravity.

A prescriptive law is when you carry something out because it is law.

I.E. It is the law for all murderers to be put in jail. So we're going to put this murderer in jail.
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#795 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:59 AM

I don't think it is the word of god. But if it were, yeah. I don't know why God would be going on talking about how it's okay to eat four legged insects. You'd think the infallible word of god would be a lot more straight-forward.


Then I think you are grossly misunderstanding literature altogether or just ignorantly choosing to believe what you believe. Jesus himself uses parables all the time.. "faith is like a mustard seed". See that? A poetic device used to help people understand. Faith isn't literally a mustard seed.

It was straight forward. For the culture it was revealed to, that is as simple as it gets. God created the heavens and the earth. Damn that's simple. God created everything. He spoke, and it happened. They didn't have the knowledge to comprehend astrophysics and the theory of making planets.

Bottom line - it NEEDED metaphors and parables to convey truth to its audience.

Edited by dajusta, 18 September 2012 - 01:05 AM.

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#796 Bitter Melon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:17 AM

Then I think you are grossly misunderstanding literature altogether or just ignorantly choosing to believe what you believe. Jesus himself uses parables all the time.. "faith is like a mustard seed". See that? A poetic device used to help people understand. Faith isn't literally a mustard seed.

It was straight forward. For the culture it was revealed to, that is as simple as it gets. God created the heavens and the earth. Damn that's simple. God created everything. He spoke, and it happened. They didn't have the knowledge to comprehend astrophysics and the theory of making planets.

Bottom line - it NEEDED metaphors and parables to convey truth to its audience.


I'm quite positive God could've articulated himself in a way that would have better explained what he meant without resorting to saying ridiculous things like the first woman being created from the rib of a dust man.

But you're the great literary scholar. Enlighten me to the metaphor God was making to a populace who, despite largely being unable to read or write, would've been easily able to interpret.
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#797 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:23 AM

I'm quite positive God could've articulated himself in a way that would have better explained what he meant without resorting to saying ridiculous things like the first woman being created from the rib of a dust man.

But you're the great literary scholar. Enlighten me to the metaphor God was making to a populace who, despite largely being unable to read or write, would've been easily able to interpret.


Typical for someone who lives centuries upon centuries after it was originally written. Imagine if the Bible was written solely for CAPSLOCK to understand it better. Umm how about the rest of the world? And for the rest of the future?

Do you understand now? You can't easily pass judgement on ancient scripture for being confusing and baffling because it's from another era and culture. You have to read it in light of the time, idioms, language, worldview, etc etc...

God created Adam, and from his likeness created Eve. Out of man's flesh, Eve was created, and because they are created together, man and woman will BE together... for it is written:


“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”


24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Edited by dajusta, 18 September 2012 - 01:27 AM.

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#798 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:39 AM

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Is it even relevant though? Assuming that there is a god (and that's a big assumption) it's taken no role in the universe so far, and I can guarantee you it isn't any being we've conceived of so far.

The most you can argue for is a deistic view.


That's true I don't many ice giants around come to think of it....
Still see plenty of wicked people though....

Edited by Gumballthechewy, 18 September 2012 - 08:42 AM.

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#799 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:06 AM

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"I'm Stephen Hawking. I'm a scientist. I'm an atheist. And i know more about the universe than you.

Is there a God? Likely not. But if there was, i'd have a few choice words for him.

Is there a heaven? Also likely not. It is a fairly tale for people afraid of the dark. I'm not afraid of the dark. Understandably, I like to spend most of my free time in the dark.

Philosophy is dead. They cannot answer anything where modern scientists can. It's just going to take a bit of patience on your part while i type it out on my speak and spell, beee-yotches."
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#800 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:36 AM

Philosophy is dead. They cannot answer anything where modern scientists can. It's just going to take a bit of patience on your part while i type it out on my speak and spell, beee-yotches."


Science doesn't have any bearing on morality.

Have you seen "The Island"? If we can clone human beings at 100% success rate, should we make clones of ourselves so we can "farm" them for organs/limbs in an attempt to secure our future livelihood? Why or why not? What foundation do you have to reach this conclusion?

Edited by dajusta, 18 September 2012 - 09:42 AM.

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#801 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:56 AM

Religion's standing on morality is on shaky ground as well. But while philosophers discuss the morality of implementing certain scientific advancements, science will continue implementing those advancements regardless.

Man's quest for immortality supersedes all else 9 times out of 10.
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#802 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:07 AM

Religion's standing on morality is on shaky ground as well. But while philosophers discuss the morality of implementing certain scientific advancements, science will continue implementing those advancements regardless.

Man's quest for immortality supersedes all else 9 times out of 10.


And without critical wisdom and moral thought we would have destroyed each other with nuclear bombs. Science needs guidance. Not sure if you get this or not, but scientific study does not produce moral foundation.

You didn't answer my question. Here it is again:

If we can clone human beings at 100% success rate, should we make clones of ourselves so we can "farm" them for organs/limbs in an attempt to secure our future livelihood? Why or why not? What foundation do you have to reach this conclusion?


Edited by dajusta, 18 September 2012 - 11:12 AM.

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#803 Trelane42

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:38 AM

In a way science, too, is at an end. Obviously not as concerning the inconsequential stuff like helping to churn out more gadgets to fuel our hedonism, but as a tool to help answer the eternal questions of where we came from, who we are, where we are going, and why are we here, mighty science has not help dent one iota. We are no further than the Greeks were over two millennia ago.

Even cursory knowledge of quantum mechanics, Bell’s Theorem, and non-locality is sufficient proof of what an utter dead end science has come to. Given that QM is spooky and underlies all other hard sciences, that as they say is that.

This thread is poorly named. Religion is but a conduit for knowing God, a school of thought if you will. It ought to be concerned with afterlife but that is not always the case (google “Holocaustianity” for a modern phenomenon). Questions about heaven or why so-and-so happens to [fill name of innocent] does not fluster a follower of other faiths, or even the more educated Christians.

Lord Krishna, for example, gave his sermon on a battlefield, urging his disciple Arjana to do his worse, in a civil war no less. And why wouldn’t he if life is but one of countless opportunities for “The One” to experience joy, misery and everything in between, not normally available to an omnipotent in another state. All life is movement: perpetual pendulum between the good and the bad, without the possibility or being 100% sure if the characterization fits, kind of like QM itself actually.

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#804 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:58 AM

In a way science, too, is at an end. Obviously not as concerning the inconsequential stuff like helping to churn out more gadgets to fuel our hedonism, but as a tool to help answer the eternal questions of where we came from, who we are, where we are going, and why are we here, mighty science has not help dent one iota. We are no further than the Greeks were over two millennia ago.


I think a skeptic would be outraged by this sentence.
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#805 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:43 PM

What I don't understand is why can't people just realise that other people are going to have different beliefs, you don't have to believe what they believe so let them believe what they want to believe. The one thing thing in this world that I can't stand is when other people try and cram their beliefs down other peoples throats. I don't believe in or approve of religion but I have several friends who are religious, we don't try and convert each other and we get along quite well.
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#806 dajusta

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:57 PM

What I don't understand is why can't people just realise that other people are going to have different beliefs, you don't have to believe what they believe so let them believe what they want to believe. The one thing thing in this world that I can't stand is when other people try and cram their beliefs down other peoples throats. I don't believe in or approve of religion but I have several friends who are religious, we don't try and convert each other and we get along quite well.


This is my take on the whole thing of spreading the gospel.

Basically Christians are tasked to spread truth. We believe that there is truth in God, and truth in Jesus. We also think it's in people's best interest that they find out this truth.

So to open minded people who honestly seek truth, they should have no problem in considering what Christians have to say. But I guess to closed minded people who don't care about truth, then they feel the most annoyance.
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#807 Sharpshooter

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:57 PM

And without critical wisdom and moral thought we would have destroyed each other with nuclear bombs. Science needs guidance. Not sure if you get this or not, but scientific study does not produce moral foundation.

You didn't answer my question. Here it is again:

[/font][/color]


Morality can exist without the need for religion. Just as the universe doesn't need a God for its existence, morality doesn't require religious dogma to exist in humans either.

And as far as science and morals and values is concerned, please have a listen.


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#808 Sharpshooter

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:05 PM

This is my take on the whole thing of spreading the gospel.

Basically Christians are tasked to spread truth. We believe that there is truth in God, and truth in Jesus. We also think it's in people's best interest that they find out this truth.

So to open minded people who honestly seek truth, they should have no problem in considering what Christians have to say. But I guess to closed minded people who don't care about truth, then they feel the most annoyance.


And your proselyting is what's wrong with your religion. You do it by hook or by crook, like every other scam artist or cult out there.

There's no difference between what you Christians who proselytize at the end of a checkbook do in Africa and other places around the modern world versus what past Christians did at the end of a blade in Europe and around the world long ago.

At least you have the dignity to call it what it is..... a command to recruit customers to buy the product that you've bought into for the profits of those in control of the means of manufacturing of said product.

What a scam. The largest Ponzi scheme ever perpetrated on humanity, and you sucker recruiters don't even really see a dime and do it for a reward in 'another life'....*wink wink*.

How so many smart people can be so dumb is astounding and never ceases to amaze and entertain me.
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#809 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:13 PM

But I guess to closed minded people who don't care about truth, then they feel the most annoyance.


See, this is what I'm talking about, you feel the need for everybody to believe in your beliefs and you try to belittle those who don't.

The closed minded people are the ones who can't accept that people believe in something they don't.

Edited by Gumballthechewy, 18 September 2012 - 01:17 PM.

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#810 Pineapples

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:06 PM

I pity those who don't see purpose in life. Without a creator, there is only life, but no reason for it.
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