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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1111 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:10 PM

The Universe Shows No Evidence for Design
Victor J. Stenger
November 14, 2010
For the Oxford Dialogues in Christian Theism.

The Fine-Tuning Argument

In recent years many theologians and Christian apologists have convinced themselves that they have a knock-down argument for the existence of God. They claim that the parameters of physics are so finely tuned that if any one of them were just slightly different in value, life would have not been possible anywhere in the universe. Assuming, on no basis whatsoever, that those parameters are independent and could have taken on any value over a wide range, they conclude that the probability of a universe with the particular set of parameters as ours is infinitesimally small. Further assuming, on no basis whatsoever, that the probability of a divine creator is not equally infinitesimally small, they conclude that such a creator existed who fine-tuned the universe for life, particularly human life. Note that there is also no basis whatsoever to assume that this creator was the personal God worshipped by Christians. Muslims, and Jews. A deist creator works equally well.

[Cont'd]

http://www.colorado....cy/NoDesign.pdf


So the article includes belief in the multiverse..

Cosmologists have proposed a very simple, purely natural, solution to the
fine-tuning problem. Their current models strongly suggest that ours is not the
only universe but part of a multiverse containing an unlimited number of
individual universes extending an unlimited distance in all directions and for an
unlimited time in the past and future. If that’s the case, we just happen to live in
that universe which is suited for our kind of life. The universe is not fine-tuned
to us; we are fine-tuned to our particular universe.

:picard:
I'm Christian
I won't judge you
No one is perfect
Only through Jesus
Will we find Truth

#1112 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:12 PM

What is the hierachy of your church ?, and you have not answered my question , has a woman ever been head of your church ?
and why does christianity stop women from holding positions of authority in their hierachy ?


I answered you, my church has had two female pastors in the past.

To this day, there are females serving as deacons.

I think you are referring to the basis of complentarianism and egalitarianism?
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#1113 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:20 PM

I answered you, my church has had two female pastors in the past.

To this day, there are females serving as deacons.

I think you are referring to the basis of complentarianism and egalitarianism?


the pope is the head of the catholic church , who is the head of your church ? and has this person ever been a woman ?

I am referring to the fact that all the big religions treat women as second class citizens and stop them from holding positions of authority .
islam and judaism actually persecute women with their religious police and modesty patrols .
can you tell me why this is so ?

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

 

 

 


#1114 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:27 PM

can you please explain why hindu's treat women in this way

A girl died in Nepal's far-west after being buried under a landslide in a cow-shed, where she had been confined while menstruating, local media reported Thursday.

In the western districts of the country, girls are confined to sheds during menstruation, in a local tradition called chaupadi. They are forbidden to visit temples or enter the house during their period and are made to sleep in the cow-sheds.
Kumari Basnet, 16, was killed in a remote village in Jajarkot district on Monday night, when the shed was buried under a landslide, The Kathmandu Post daily reported.
Women are considered impure during menstruation in the Hindu tradition

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

 

 

 


#1115 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:32 PM

The church I grew up at had two female pastors.

I can't speak for the Amish community, though several Mennonite communities can be traced to them. I could only best explain it as the Amish community seek to live simple lives. Require no dependency on anything other than God. They foregone things like electricity, cars, basic technology what not. They eliminate these things to pursue a simple life... I can foresee the Amish community regard gardening and flowers as something against this type of lifestyle. Much like how a Buddhist would claim to "eliminate desire" or something to that effect.

I can't say for certain but that's my best bet.




Alright dude, we're talking on too many points with too little conclusions.

Let's go with this one - creation. I don't believe in the literal understanding of creationism as presented as Genesis 1+2. I believe they are to be read figuratively and poetically as the Hebrew language and structure suggests. You already know this about me, yet you pin it on me again and again?


Because religious people are the world's best cherry-pickers. What they can't reconcile in their contradictory and hypocritical ancient texts, they dismiss as poetry and prose and other literary devices that requires the very mental gymnastics that you're so adept at, in order to not cause the whole kit n' kaboodle from being thrown in the garbage at first glance.

The ones that adhere to creation as literal since it's quite genuinely put forth in the Bible are at least courageous in their convictions that this is the way it was meant to be asserted by those that wrote the Bible. Cherry-pickers such as yourself deny it for the cover "but that's not what they meant".

You can't have it both ways, because then all religions past and present, practiced or extinct could play that game and be just as credible and just as valid.

Religion manipulates itself and others.

So the article includes belief in the multiverse..

Cosmologists have proposed a very simple, purely natural, solution to the
fine-tuning problem. Their current models strongly suggest that ours is not the
only universe but part of a multiverse containing an unlimited number of
individual universes extending an unlimited distance in all directions and for an
unlimited time in the past and future. If that’s the case, we just happen to live in
that universe which is suited for our kind of life. The universe is not fine-tuned
to us; we are fine-tuned to our particular universe.

:picard:


It puts forth the argument for a multi-verse.....not a 'belief' in one.


:picard:

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#1116 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:37 PM

Again, it's a non-belief.

And the strength of this non-belief is wide ranging from certain to uncertain and everything in between.

Thanks for demonstrating once again that you don't quite grasp the English language or simple definitions.

'Non-belief' is the label that atheists give to their belief that there is no God. It isn't special. Or unique. It's just another belief.

This belief is preached by prominent atheists, followed by other atheists, and is now being converted into organized religion.

(Speaking of converting, it's quite religious of a person to want to try to convert a person to their own belief systems.)

Religion does not require a deity or any supernatural spirituality. All it requires is a common worldview and the steps needed to make it official. It has a belief system. An active one, where yes, it used to be inactive non-belief, but that has changed. Atheism today is VERY active and is seeking out those with common beliefs in order to be organized. And don't kid yourself, It is organized. Ritual would be the final one, and that is coming via your atheist church, coming soon to a town near you.

Yes, yes, 'if atheism is a religion then not playing hockey is a sport.' That's not the issue though. The issue is that atheists are starting to preach that not playing hockey is just as valid a sport as playing hockey.

Atheism might not be an 'official' religion yet, but with religion being more loosely defined every year and with more and more atheist groups wanting to get their piece of the pie, i foresee it getting 'official' status fairly quickly.
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#1117 J.R.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:45 PM

TML, can you honestly not see it for what it is? For those particular Atheists it's merely a comical "get them at their own game" gambit. It's mockery.

Do you think all Atheists are actually gathering around a floating, candled mass of spaghetti? And if you do actually find some group doing that, do you think they're actually AT ALL serious?
"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
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#1118 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:16 PM

TML, can you honestly not see it for what it is? For those particular Atheists it's merely a comical "get them at their own game" gambit. It's mockery.

Do you think all Atheists are actually gathering around a floating, candled mass of spaghetti? And if you do actually find some group doing that, do you think they're actually AT ALL serious?


TML has trouble with satire, logic, definitions, the English language.....and i'll add to the list as more is revealed.

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#1119 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:24 PM

Atheism wasn't ever supposed to take that step. To actually set up a church in order to mock it? That's not mere peaceful non-belief. That's an aggressive, 'we're better than you' approach that is shared by most organized religions. This thread is proof that atheist activism is on the rise. That activism will only grow until atheism gets official religion status. Or the equivalent 'we're not a religion, but we want the same status, even though we're actually a religion' status that they'll want to cling to.

In any case i've seen many a sermon by an atheist preacher to indicate to me that atheism is so close to a religion that they might as well come out and admit it. But that'll never happen. It'll be like admitting there's a God to them. Both are no-no's in their belief system.
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#1120 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:26 PM

the pope is the head of the catholic church , who is the head of your church ? and has this person ever been a woman ?

I am referring to the fact that all the big religions treat women as second class citizens and stop them from holding positions of authority .
islam and judaism actually persecute women with their religious police and modesty patrols .
can you tell me why this is so ?


For some years the church was without pastor. There have been times the pastor has been male, and for some other years it has been female.

See where you are going with this, some sort of discrimination due to gender. And it does exist and I am not ashamed of it.

Throughout the ages, male and female have common differences. Males tend to be task driven and more head knowledge. Females tend to be nurturing and higher on the emotional quotient. This kind of truth is prevalent even today.

This is going to be kind of hard to explain, so work with me here. Christian life and church structure are supposed to be correlated with each other. The family unit, as depicted in Genesis of Husband, Wife, and God, is suppose to be the structure of the healthy church. Both husband and wife work together to take care of creation, and by obeying God, they grow closer to him.

Due to the kind of gifts we are given by our predisposed gender, our 'roles' in family and church are clearly defined. Men are to lead spiritually and to love their wives, and wives are suppose to listen to husbands (not using the negative word "submit") and to nurture children.

You may disagree and label it as a method of control, arrogant hypocrisy, and even lunacy, but what I see is very different. I see gender as something intentional. I see gender as something to be embraced. It is possible to have a holistic and healthy church where people take up their roles.

By no means do I condone beating your wife, showing disrespect to your wife, exercising abusive authority on your wife... all this is extremely counter cultural to the healthy family unit.

For women out there who believe it's absolutely arrogant to have males as the "head" of the household.. let me ask you one question. If your husband is perfect, if your husband loves you, if your husband would do anything for you, why wouldn't you make him the head of the household?

can you please explain why hindu's treat women in this way

A girl died in Nepal's far-west after being buried under a landslide in a cow-shed, where she had been confined while menstruating, local media reported Thursday.
In the western districts of the country, girls are confined to sheds during menstruation, in a local tradition called chaupadi. They are forbidden to visit temples or enter the house during their period and are made to sleep in the cow-sheds.
Kumari Basnet, 16, was killed in a remote village in Jajarkot district on Monday night, when the shed was buried under a landslide, The Kathmandu Post daily reported.
Women are considered impure during menstruation in the Hindu tradition


I read the article a few days ago. It's a tragic thing. That one is particular due to cultural differences - at which is a totally different discussion.

I can't speak for them, but you have to understand their culture and customs before you criticize. To them, I bet a westerner looks awfully stupid fighting in a hockey game.

Because religious people are the world's best cherry-pickers. What they can't reconcile in their contradictory and hypocritical ancient texts, they dismiss as poetry and prose and other literary devices that requires the very mental gymnastics that you're so adept at, in order to not cause the whole kit n' kaboodle from being thrown in the garbage at first glance.

The ones that adhere to creation as literal since it's quite genuinely put forth in the Bible are at least courageous in their convictions that this is the way it was meant to be asserted by those that wrote the Bible. Cherry-pickers such as yourself deny it for the cover "but that's not what they meant".

You can't have it both ways, because then all religions past and present, practiced or extinct could play that game and be just as credible and just as valid.

Religion manipulates itself and others.



It puts forth the argument for a multi-verse.....not a 'belief' in one.


:picard:


I already explained to you that the Bible has various genres in which ancient scholars and textual critics determine how it should be read. Genesis 1+2 are EXTREMELY poetic. They are just LEAKING with poetry that only the most uninformed skeptic wouldn't know.

You already know all this. By stating these same arguments over and over again show how backed you are in an illogical corner.

Edited by dajusta, 20 September 2012 - 04:27 PM.

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#1121 J.R.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:26 PM

Atheism wasn't ever supposed to take that step. To actually set up a church in order to mock it? That's not mere peaceful non-belief. That's an aggressive, 'we're better than you' approach that is shared by most organized religions. This thread is proof that atheist activism is on the rise. That activism will only grow until atheism gets official religion status. Or the equivalent 'we're not a religion, but we want the same status, even though we're actually a religion' status that they'll want to cling to.

In any case i've seen many a sermon by an atheist preacher to indicate to me that atheism is so close to a religion that they might as well come out and admit it. But that'll never happen. It'll be like admitting there's a God to them. Both are no-no's in their belief system.


:picard:

Edited by J.R., 20 September 2012 - 04:27 PM.

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#1122 Nevlach

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:30 PM

TML, can you honestly not see it for what it is? For those particular Atheists it's merely a comical "get them at their own game" gambit. It's mockery.

Do you think all Atheists are actually gathering around a floating, candled mass of spaghetti? And if you do actually find some group doing that, do you think they're actually AT ALL serious?

I thought they were...
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#1123 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:32 PM

It'll be difficult to prove that God doesn't exist when you can't even prove that atheism isn't a religion, that's for sure.

'Here's evidence of organized religious activity done in the name of atheism.'

'Oh, but that's satirical.'

'Oh, so i guess you saying there's no God, that was total bullsht too?'

'No. But it's up to you to prove to me that there's a God anyway.'

'Okay. I'll do that when your brethren stop acting like silly little children.'
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#1124 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:32 PM

Atheism wasn't ever supposed to take that step. To actually set up a church in order to mock it? That's not mere peaceful non-belief. That's an aggressive, 'we're better than you' approach that is shared by most organized religions. This thread is proof that atheist activism is on the rise. That activism will only grow until atheism gets official religion status. Or the equivalent 'we're not a religion, but we want the same status, even though we're actually a religion' status that they'll want to cling to.

In any case i've seen many a sermon by an atheist preacher to indicate to me that atheism is so close to a religion that they might as well come out and admit it. But that'll never happen. It'll be like admitting there's a God to them. Both are no-no's in their belief system.


Says which divinely sourced dogma?

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#1125 J.R.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:33 PM

I thought they were...

Well those ones aren't serious. Think "mock play" ;)
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#1126 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:35 PM

Says which divinely sourced dogma?

Religion, as loosely defined as it has become, doesn't require it.
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#1127 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:39 PM

Atheism asserts a belief. The belief that God does not exist.

It is the minimal requirement of a religion - which is a belief. In this case.. it is the belief in the disbelief.
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#1128 J.R.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:39 PM

Religion, as loosely defined as it has become, doesn't require it.


Perhaps you should do something about your slutty definition of religion then :P
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#1129 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:44 PM

Religion, as loosely defined as it has become, doesn't require it.


Hockey is also loosely defined as a religion, do you think that makes it an actual religion like Christianity??

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#1130 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:47 PM

Atheism asserts a belief. The belief that God does not exist.

It is the minimal requirement of a religion - which is a belief. In this case.. it is the belief in the disbelief.


Nope. Atheism is a disbelief in the assertion that there is a God.

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#1131 Nevlach

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:53 PM

Nope. Atheism is a disbelief in the assertion that there is a God.

So you don't believe there is no god then?
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#1132 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:58 PM

So you don't believe there is no god then?


I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that there is one.

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#1133 Nevlach

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:59 PM

I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that there is one.

So....?

:P
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#1134 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:01 PM

So....?

:P


So?......

B)

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#1135 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:02 PM

So you don't believe there is no god then?

I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that there is one.


lol
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#1136 Nevlach

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:02 PM

Well that was fun haha
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#1137 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:03 PM

Ironically, this is where science is useless. The realm of philosophy.

Sharpshooter - what do you believe in?
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#1138 Humble Rodent

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:06 PM

So....?

:P

Why would somebody believe in something they have no evidence for?

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#1139 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:07 PM

lol

Well that was fun haha


Indeed

Except perhaps i'm laughing for nullifying your attempt to use a double negative inquiry and you two are laughing because you think you've struck a point. :lol:

Ah, semantics, tis a barrel o' laughs indeed.

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#1140 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:08 PM

Ironically, this is where science is useless. The realm of philosophy.

Sharpshooter - what do you believe in?


Many things.

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"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff





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