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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1321 Bitter Melon

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:34 PM

If somebody wants to use Websters as a definition bible, then he might've wanted to look at the definition of atheism first.

The doctrine of there not being a deity can easily be tranformed into religion if a church so chooses. Forget First Church of Atheism, What about Buddhism?


As opposed to changing the definitions of words to support our arguments? You can, theoretically, turn anything into a religion if you want. That doesn't automatically make everything a religion.

When someone says "I'm an atheist" the only thing you can infer from that is that they don't believe in a god. You can't assume that means they believe in evolution any more than you can assume it means they think Santa is real.

When someone says "I'm a christian" you can infer they believe a set doctrine of beliefs. They believe Jesus was their messiah. They believe one God created the universe. They believe the bible is the word of God. etc, etc.

What about Buddhism? I thought I already addressed that. Buddhism is not the doctrine of 'there is no deity'. Buddhism is, in a nutshell, the belief that attachment to material things leads only to suffering.
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#1322 Nevlach

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:41 PM

Hockey is my religion.
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#1323 Remy

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 05:50 PM

Hockey is my religion.


This is the single best post in this thread. I'm going to hop on that wagon as well, perhaps I'm not a very good atheist after all. I would decry atheism is "just another religion", but it doesn't even matter ... praise be to the Hockey Gods.
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#1324 Vancanwincup

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:29 PM

Then I'm sorry for your take on the matter.

So far I have yet to see any wrong doing on my point. What was offensive? That I explained credible evidences for God? Pointing out the fallacies is more than bolding points. You have to assert your critical thought.


There is no such thing only fairy tales for the weak of mind. You go on like you understand the point on science defuting the exitence of "god" ; if you where truely to understand then you would not believe in "God".

There are some major self righteousness in almost every religion, religious persons and description of "God" :
1) Man was created in the image of "God" ( self righteous of the religious person thinking they are special) righteousness of "God" or sign of weakness not greatness that an almighty being needs such.
2) An almighy "God" needs to be prayed to for acceptence; both side are being self righteous the prayer for thinking this makes them special and the so called "God" for needing the praise.
3) Everything about religion and "God" is about pleasing "God" in an effort that once again to keep " God" happy so the holy will be looked upon in "God's" judgement as bieng worthy to enter heaven. This alone shows that "God" is far from prefect and the minds of the religous to be easily brain washed into believing such an entity exist.

There are those in religion that state praying is not needed for "God" to love you and it's a choice not a demand. Yet the bible clearly states that no other "God" shall be prayed to and if done they well be punished for doing so. This can be interpreted in a few ways:
1) Praying is not needed as long if it isn't for another "God" ( self rightous)
2) "God" is actually self-conscious about other "Gods" therefore there is more than one(not so mighty)
3) Only Pray to me "God" because I'm self rightous and need the attention.

It all come back to the same thing; man needs answers some simplify and turn to religion and others think for themselves. They ask questions and use their brain to create science and actually work to find answers. Not slip into a fantasy world with a self rightous "God" with all the answers, they just have to wait to die to meet him and get those answers.

Here's another take on creation it could have very well of been a creator of the universe, but that does not mean mankind was apart of that design. Mankind could have been the creation of something separate of the design and put into exitence to create havoc. This would explain man's self rightousness to created a facility they are created in the image of the one and only creator, kill one another in his name, have disease, create only to destory and so much more havoc.


I guess it is impossible for the simple mind of the religious to comprehend that science can prove or is getting closer to proving that something can be created out of nothing like the universe was created. Science is getting closer to proving man does not belong on earth or was not naturally created on earth.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that humans are not special and if there is a creator( a big if) the self rightous humans image of this creator is wrong; It could care less what happens to the bacteria called humans.

Edited by Vancanwincup, 22 September 2012 - 09:36 PM.

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#1325 dajusta

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:54 PM

There is no such thing only fairy tales for the weak of mind. You go on like you understand the point on science defuting the exitence of "god" ; if you where truely to understand then you would not believe in "God".


Alright well explain how the disciples of Jesus were so radical in their belief in that they gave up their lives for his name sake? Not only that, but the religion was so counter cultural to their Jewish tradition, yet they still endured persecution for it. What made them want to be crucified with Christ if he was a fake?

Explain how the Bible that has 40 different authors that spanned thousands of years still has a central theme and concise theological message of the person of Christ?

Explain how the book of Daniel, written 6th century BCE, was able to so prophecy so accurately the coming of Alexander the Great, who existed in 4th century BCE?

These are all evidences that point to the person of Christ, and as well as the supernatural being of God. Mind you, that these are not empirical evidences. Such things do not exist or else it undermines the notion of faith. But there are many credible evidences that point to the unexplained. Like for instance the laws of thermodynamics that states matter must come from a source and no matter is eternal. Our universe needed to come from an eternal source - something before time. What could be eternal? I wonder.

Edited by dajusta, 22 September 2012 - 11:59 PM.

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#1326 Bill Sikes

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:09 AM

God(s) did not create man in their own image, man has given his own image to his God(s).

Xenophanes, an ancient Greek philosopher: "If horses had Gods, they would look like horses!"

Edited by Norman Clegg, 23 September 2012 - 06:09 AM.

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#1327 Remy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:37 AM

Alright well explain how the disciples of Jesus were so radical in their belief in that they gave up their lives for his name sake? Not only that, but the religion was so counter cultural to their Jewish tradition, yet they still endured persecution for it. What made them want to be crucified with Christ if he was a fake?


Your logic is so fragile. So, does being a zealot, or having fierce convictions, provide proof that those beliefs are a fundamental truth? If I had a mental illness and believed that little gnomes were talking to me, does that make it so? In a literal sense, of course not. So what made them decide to get crucified along with Christ? Being severely deluded and misguided. To see just how stupid your point is, ask your question again but this time phrase it in a way that you're talking about the plane hijackers on 9/11. Somehow, I doubt you feel that willingly going to their deaths provides any legitimacy for the terror they caused.

Explain how the Bible that has 40 different authors that spanned thousands of years still has a central theme and concise theological message of the person of Christ?


It's called editing, not a difficult concept to grasp. Every version has been edited, that's why you have the "King Jame's Bible". Guess what, it had an editor. When you can pick and choose the content it's a lot easier to have a concise narrative. Ever notice how the gnostic writings are generally ignored? Add those in, just as a small example, and see how cloudy things start to get, almost instantly. Which is to say nothing of the fact that the Bible is a book full of contradictions anyway. So even though it was edited, I cannot claim that it was edited well.

Explain how the book of Daniel, written 6th century BCE, was able to so prophecy so accurately the coming of Alexander the Great, who existed in 4th century BCE?


And now God only appears on toast, for some strange reason. Ever consider that it's easy to extrapolate this kind of psychic power when you have the benefit of hindsight? Or, perhaps these "prophecies" merely hit on cultural touchstones, the kind that created an environment for Alexander the Great. If I predicted another war someday, given everything we know about human history and how war-like we are, do you think that makes me a prophet? I'd call that a well-informed inference.

These are all evidences that point to the person of Christ, and as well as the supernatural being of God. Mind you, that these are not empirical evidences. Such things do not exist or else it undermines the notion of faith. But there are many credible evidences that point to the unexplained. Like for instance the laws of thermodynamics that states matter must come from a source and no matter is eternal. Our universe needed to come from an eternal source - something before time. What could be eternal? I wonder.


So, admittedly, your evidence is not really evidence. And you can't just throw in a scientific concept that you don't understand and take that as any kind of authority for your views. Whenever religious people attempt to use science in their favour, it always makes you look very silly. Tide goes in, tide goes out, you can't explain that!
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#1328 Nevlach

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:11 AM

God(s) did not create man in their own image, man has given his own image to his God(s).

Xenophanes, an ancient Greek philosopher: "If horses had Gods, they would look like horses!"

Yet funny how when Xenophanes rejected the polytheistic view of the gods of the Greeks (as explanations for natural phenomenon) he still went on to say this:
"There is one God... similar to mortals neither in shape nor thought... remote and effortless he governs all there is."
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#1329 Sharpshooter

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:18 AM

Yet funny how when Xenophanes rejected the polytheistic view of the gods of the Greeks (as explanations for natural phenomenon) he still went on to say this:
"There is one God... similar to mortals neither in shape nor thought... remote and effortless he governs all there is."


I think you missed the point that Norman was trying to make though, or are looking past it in a sense. God(s) are generally made in the image of their conjureres. It's why Hindus had Indian looking gods, why early Christians, who were Middle-Eastern Jews for all intents and purposes, had a Jew who was a Man-God, why Nordic people had Nordic looking Gods, etc...

If the Hindus of ancient India had kangaroos, there'd most likely be a kangaroo-god, instead of a monkey god or a god with an elephant's head. What would have been really profound is if Jesus was Japanese or Mexican. Now surely that would have been an impossibility that would have lended some credibility to a divine act of insemination. If Thor was a black guy, that would have been something remarkable

....BUT, none of that happened....human beings created a god or gods in their own image. They chose the manifestation of human form to look like them, because that's all they really knew.

It's all just made up stories people and your god(s) are simply characters in those stories.

The Christian God is more known because a powerful civilization adopted that story as it was most popular and on the rise to replace the pagan one that was on the decline. With the conquering of territory things like religion invariably made its way into the conquered lands and people. That's how Islam grew and how Christianity grew. If the hindus had the same lust for territory and zeolotorious proselytizing at the point of the sword, much of Asia Minor may have well been Hindu, hundreds, if not thousands of years before Christ was ever born.

It's all made up stories.

Grow up and let go of the safety blanket. Be good and kind and merciful and generous and loving for their own sake and not because some fictional, man-made god or book tells/asks/commands you too. Trust me, you be those things without the thought of someone or something judging you or watching over your shoulder, like a celestial big brother, making you feel guilty and monitored, you'll enjoy those selfless acts so much more, because they have no more reward than how it makes you feel and how it makes others feel, which is enough reward on its own.

Theism and Deism is bullsh!$.

Edit....And thus ends my Sunday sermon, please help yourself with some cookies on your way out. (Apologies for turning my response to you into a rant, Nevise.)

Edited by Sharpshooter, 23 September 2012 - 10:20 AM.

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#1330 Nevlach

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:28 AM

I think you missed the point that Norman was trying to make though, or are looking past it in a sense. God(s) are generally made in the image of their conjureres. It's why Hindus had Indian looking gods, why early Christians, who were Middle-Eastern Jews for all intents and purposes, had a Jew who was a Man-God, why Nordic people had Nordic looking Gods, etc...

If the Hindus of ancient India had kangaroos, there'd most likely be a kangaroo-god, instead of a monkey god or a god with an elephant's head. What would have been really profound is if Jesus was Japanese or Mexican. Now surely that would have been an impossibility that would have lended some credibility to a divine act of insemination. If Thor was a black guy, that would have been something remarkable

....BUT, none of that happened....human beings created a god or gods in their own image. They chose the manifestation of human form to look like them, because that's all they really knew.

It's all just made up stories people and your god(s) are simply characters in those stories.

The Christian God is more known because a powerful civilization adopted that story as it was most popular and on the rise to replace the pagan one that was on the decline. With the conquering of territory things like religion invariably made its way into the conquered lands and people. That's how Islam grew and how Christianity grew. If the hindus had the same lust for territory and zeolotorious proselytizing at the point of the sword, much of Asia Minor may have well been Hindu, hundreds, if not thousands of years before Christ was ever born.

It's all made up stories.

Grow up and let go of the safety blanket. Be good and kind and merciful and generous and loving for their own sake and not because some fictional, man-made god or book tells/asks/commands you too. Trust me, you be those things without the thought of someone or something judging you or watching over your shoulder, like a celestial big brother, making you feel guilty and monitored, you'll enjoy those selfless acts so much more, because they have no more reward than how it makes you feel and how it makes others feel, which is enough reward on its own.

Theism and Deism is bullsh!$.

Edit....And thus ends my Sunday sermon, please help yourself with some cookies on your way out. (Apologies for turning my response to you into a rant, Nevise.)

No worries I don't take offence to much easily. I can understand why you believe what you do though; of course I would disagree with some of it, namely what I've bolded above :P
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#1331 Pineapples

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:24 PM

The hypocrisy is this thread amazes me.

No wonder this debate will never end.
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#1332 vancanfan

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:33 PM

LOL @ this thread and the ones in the past.

FYI, how many times does the bible talk about dinosaurs?

I can answer that. 0

Think about that religious people.

Unless of course dinosaurs did not exist. :rolleyes:
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#1333 Pouria

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:22 PM

LOL @ this thread and the ones in the past.

FYI, how many times does the bible talk about dinosaurs?

I can answer that. 0

Think about that religious people.

Unless of course dinosaurs did not exist.
:rolleyes:


What??? Dinosaurs??? LOL this thread is just making me laugh.
So what does dinosaurs have to do with anything?
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#1334 Pouria

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:34 PM

The hypocrisy is this thread amazes me.

No wonder this debate will never end.


The never ending battle between atheists and religious people.

You have Muslims Vs. Christians Vs. Jews Vs. Atheists Vs. Buddhists Vs. Agnostics Vs. Hindus Vs. blah blah blah

I stand by agnosticism which neither believes or disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities. Humanity does not currently possess the requisite knowledge and/or reason to provide sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist. So Atheists who blab about non-existence of god can be just as wrong as religious people who believe in existence of god.


CASE CLOSED!!

/thread
And am out of here before people come and bash my views or say that am wrong, they are right.
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#1335 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:20 PM

LOL @ this thread and the ones in the past.

FYI, how many times does the bible talk about dinosaurs?

I can answer that. 0

Think about that religious people.

Unless of course dinosaurs did not exist. :rolleyes:

This seems like it should be part of an "atheists: 1, Christians: 0" meme or something.
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#1336 vancanfan

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:50 PM

What??? Dinosaurs??? LOL this thread is just making me laugh.
So what does dinosaurs have to do with anything?


Why would the bible, of all books, that tells us about Moses parting the sea, David and Goliath, etc etc, and how the creation of mankind took place, fail to mention that the largest creatures to ever roam this planet existed?

I put as much faith in the bible as I do in Macleans magazine, Archie comics or The Hockey News.
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#1337 Pineapples

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:18 PM

The never ending battle between atheists and religious people.

You have Muslims Vs. Christians Vs. Jews Vs. Atheists Vs. Buddhists Vs. Agnostics Vs. Hindus Vs. blah blah blah

I stand by agnosticism which neither believes or disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities. Humanity does not currently possess the requisite knowledge and/or reason to provide sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist. So Atheists who blab about non-existence of god can be just as wrong as religious people who believe in existence of god.


CASE CLOSED!!

/thread
And am out of here before people come and bash my views or say that am wrong, they are right.


Exactly. My point all along has been that those who are claiming they have irrefutable evidence are incorrect to say that.

Believing in something is one thing, but it's another to claim to have the answer, when that's impossible to have.
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#1338 Sharpshooter

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:38 PM

Learn more about The Big Bang. Good video with the latest knowledge.


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#1339 Heretic

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:48 PM


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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#1340 Heretic

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:52 PM

LOL @ this thread and the ones in the past.

FYI, how many times does the bible talk about dinosaurs?

I can answer that. 0

Think about that religious people.

Unless of course dinosaurs did not exist. :rolleyes:


Wrong -

Job 40:15-24

http://www.clarifyin...com/dinos.shtml
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#1341 Nevlach

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:16 PM

If anyone wants to read some good books arguing for the theistic/deistic view with regards to Fine-Tuning of the universe check out:
God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God by John Lennox
Can Life Be Merely An Accident? by Dr. Robert Piccioni

Lennox of course is one of the world's best science and religion apologists but Piccioni doesn't talk about God at all he simply puts out the case for just how incredibly "fine-tuned" the universe has to be (and is) to support life.
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#1342 Remy

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:21 PM

Wrong -

Job 40:15-24

http://www.clarifyin...com/dinos.shtml


Okay, now you're just trying way too hard to stretch things to fit into a neat little box. You would actually have more credibility if you acknowledged that the Bible isn't infallible. It would demonstrate that you actually are a logical, rational person that should be taken seriously. Instead, you've gone in the other direction. A reasonable person would not try to claim that the Bible spoke of dinosaurs.

Edit: And yes, I looked at your link. Was that website made by a sixth grader in 1996? Anyway, it's a stretch, at best. Like I said, it's not advancing your argument in any meaningful way, that's for sure.

Edited by Remy, 23 September 2012 - 10:23 PM.

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#1343 Tom-The-Great

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:27 PM

Wrong -

Job 40:15-24

http://www.clarifyin...com/dinos.shtml


Unfortunately, our public school system and the media have convinced us that dinosaurs were extinct at least 60 million years before man appeared on earth. They have done such a good job in this area that we can not imagine people and dinosaurs living at the same time. The fact is that dinosaurs were created no more than one day before mankind, not many millions of years earlier—and we have evidence to support that statement.


taken from that link you posted.. do you believe this?
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#1344 Vancanwincup

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:33 PM

Wrong -

Job 40:15-24

http://www.clarifyin...com/dinos.shtml


Wow are you and that article reaching .... But here is some facts of history about your all loving Christianity.1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ

10th Century Obscenities
Vile Princes of the Papacy


"Popes maimed & were maimed, killed & were killed... Without question, these pontiffs constitute the most despicable body of leaders, clerical or lay, in history. They were, frankly, barbarians. Ancient Rome had nothing to rival them in rottenness."
– Peter de Rosa (Vicars of Christ, p48)


Posted Image John XII (955-964).

Born from an incestuous relationship between Pope Sergio III and his 13-year-old daughter Marozie. John, in turn, took his mother as his own mistress.

Pope at 18, he turned the Lateran into a brothel. He was accused by a synod of "sacrilege, simony, perjury, murder, adultery and incest" and was temporarily deposed.

He took his revenge on opponents by hacking off limbs. He was murdered by an enraged husband who caught him having sex with his wife.



11th Century Horror
Church lords over ignorant squalor of millions


1095 - Pope Urban II calls upon the Franks to invade the more civilized Muslim world. Begins five centuries of warfare.

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"Let those who have hitherto been robbers now become soldiers."
– Urban II addresses his gangsters.




1009: Rivalry from Islam prompts eastern churches to break with idolatry. This 'iconoclasm' begins breach with idol-worshipping Catholic west. Centuries of bloodshed ensue.

1079: The Council of Rome: Persecution of Berengarius & his followers who cannot stomach the dogma of 'transmutation of bread & wine into Christ.'

Posted Image
Svyatoslav's Miscellany, 1076. God's work – a serious business.



12th Century Criminality
Christian Church ally of murderous kings & rogue princes


Posted Image

"Warrior Monks" - Muslim heads catapulted into the besieged city of Antioch by Christian Knights (Illumination from Les Histoires d'Outremer by William of Tyre 12th century, Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris).



1118: Christian fanatics captured Saragossa; the beginning of the decline of Muslim civilization in Spain.

1184 Council of Verona condemns Waldensians for witchcraft. The charge is later extended to condemn heretics.

Posted Image



13th Century Wickedness
Vile Crusaders Plunder & Murder for God


1204 Christian crusaders sack & ruin greatest Christian city, Constantinople.

1209 Pope Innocent III launches Albigensian Crusade against Christian Cathars of southern France. 7000 massacred in La Madeleine Church alone.

1211 Burning of Waldenses heretics at Strasbourg begins several centuries of persecution.

German Teutonic Knights butcher their way through the Baltic lands, savage Catholic Poles & Orthodox Russians.

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1231: Pope Gregory IX authorizes Inquisition for dealing with heretics.

1277 Pope John XXI, alarmed by rumors of pagan heresy among “scholars of arts in the faculty of theology" pressurizes Stephen Tempier, Bishop of Paris, to prohibit 219 philosophical and theological theses. The "Condemnations of Paris" is the first of 16 lists of censorship.



14th Century Catastrophe
Church hostility to medicine allows plague to decimate Europe

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Burning of the Jews of Cologne –
blamed by Christians for the Black Death (Liber Chronicarum Mundi).


World Domination?

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff."

– Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unun Sanctum, 1302


1311-12: Ecumenical Council of Vienne. It authorises the brutal suppression of the Knights Templar (mercenaries of the church who have outlived their usefulness).







1316-1334: Pope John XXII, world's richest man and first pontiff to promote theory of witchcraft. Sanctions bull allowing heresy charges to be brought against dead people. In 1320 he instructs French Inquisition to confiscate all property belonging to blasphemers or dabblers in black arts.

1300s. Glowing eyes and nocturnal behaviour of the cat interpreted by the Church as clear proof of the hapless moggy's diabolic affinity. Wholesale trapping and burning of cats allowed free rein to the spread of the flee-carrying rat. Subsequently, Europe's population was decimated by the plague.

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1347-50: The Black Death sweeps across Europe, killing one-third of the population.

"Jews were burnt all the way from the Mediterranean into Germany... under torture confessing to have spread the plague by poisoning wells... the poison made from the skin of a basilisk (a kind of mythical serpent)..."

– N. Cantor (In the Wake of the Plague)






15th Century Malevolence
Tortured Bodies by Sadists of the Lord

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16th Century Mayhem
Pogroms & civil wars in the name of Jesus


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"My advice... is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire.."

Martin Luther ("On the Jews and their lies" 1543)

1517: Martin Luther posts 95 theses at Wittenberg. The Reformation will turn Europe into a battleground.

1517 A Dominican monk Johann Tetzel swells papal coffers by selling indulgences ('souls freed from purgatory'!)

1524: Luther – no friend of the downtrodden – encourages savagery of German princes in putting down the two-year Peasants’ Revolt.



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Book Burners for Christ–
Dominican monks in the service of Ferdinand proudly consign the wisdom of Moorish Spain to the flames (Berruguete, Prado Museum, Madrid)



1553 John Calvin, the "Protestant Pope" of Geneva proves his Christian credentials by having Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake for heresy. Servetus had opposed Trinitarianism and infant baptism.
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Servetus, the discoverer of pulmonary blood circulation (an advance on Galen) had fled the Inquisition and had thought himself safe among Protestants. Oh dear.


1559 Introduction of Index of Forbidden Books (lasts until 1966)


1563 Following the Council of Trent, Jesuit Order becomes 'Defender of the Faith'. Huguenots are persecuted in France.



17th Century Barbarity
Burning Witches for Christ

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Urbain Grandier, burned in Loudun, 1634. Cardinal Richelieu orchestrated his murder.

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1600 After a seven year trail before the Inquisition, Giordano Bruno, who had the audacity to suggest that space was boundless and that the sun and its planets were not unique, is condemned and burned at the stake.



1605: The Gunpowder Plot. Catholic fanatics attempt to blow up James I of England.



1633 Galileo is brought before the Inquisition. Under threat of torture and death, he is forced from his knees to renounce all belief in Copernican theories. He is sentenced to life imprisonment. He dies in 1642 and the charges against him stand for another 350 years.






1618-1648 Central Europe devastated by Thirty Years' War between Catholics and Protestants

1411 Dominican Vincente Ferrer revives anti-Jewish hysteria in Spain: "cohorts of the Devil and Anti-Christ, clever, warped and doomed."

1415 John Huss of Bohemia, critic of papal corruption but guaranteed personal safety, burned at the stake. "When dealing with heretics, one is not obligated to keep his word." – Pope Gregory XII.

1415 Pope John XXIII deposed: "The most scandalous charges were suppressed; the Vicar of Christ was only accused of piracy, murder, rape, sodomy and incest."
– Gibbon (Decline & Fall)


1478: Pope Sixtus IV, in alliance with King Ferdinand of Spain, establishes the Spanish Inquisition. Jews, Moors and heretics will be imprisoned, tortured and murdered for centuries.
The bisexual Sixtus, though suffering from syphilis, fathers children from his elder sister.


1484 Pope Innocent VIII decrees that cats are unholy creatures, to be burned along with the witches that own them.


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1486 Taking a break from book-burning, two Dominican monks, Henrich Kramer & James Sprenger, write a best-seller – Malleus Maleficarum ('The Witches Hammer') – 'the most blood thirsty book ever written.' (Peter de Rosa, Vicars of Christ, p184)

This unsurpassed nonsense rests on the bench of every magistrate and judge in Europe for three centuries and leads to tens of thousands of judicial murders.

1498 Dominican reformer, Savonarola – burner of books & ornaments of 'pagan immorality' – is himself burned for criticising the degenerate Pope Alexander VI.

18th Century Scandal
Christian Church endorses Slavery, Racism & subordination of women


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"And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."

Genesis 9.24-26



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"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property."

Leviticus 25:44



1738: Freemasonry is condemned by Clement XII and Catholics are forbidden to join.


1793: Last 'witch' burning at Poznen in Germany


19th Century Evil
Christian Church Rejects Science & social reform; Christian 'missions' go hand-in-hand with colonialism.




1814: Society of Jesus, suppressed since 1773, is restored. The Inquisition continues until 1834, Church-sanctioned torture until 1917.

1844: 'Protection of Children Act' allows Church missionaries in Australia to kidnap aboriginal children.

1854: Pius IX proclaims the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in the bull Ineffabilis Deus. Lourdes shrine introduced.



1864: Pius IX issues the encyclical Quanta cura and the Syllabus of Errors. It condemns some 80 propositions derived from scientific method and rationalism. Liberalism & socialism are denounced.



1870: Vatican Council declares the Pope "infallible".



'Bible Societies' & 'Missions' in European colonies destroy indigenous cultures

20th Century Iniquity
Christian Church allies itself with Fascism; opposes advances of science & personal freedom


1907 Pius X condemns Modernism in the decree Lamentabili and the encyclical Pascendi.

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Hitler's Pope - Pius XII (1939-1958)

Hitler, a Roman Catholic, is never excommunicated for causing the death of millions; whereas Martin Luther was excommunicated for criticism of the papal system.

Friends of Fascists Everywhere:

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Posted Image Croatia

21st Century Menace
Churches the Stalking Ground of Paedophiles & Sex Offenders


On March 12, 2000 Pope John Paul II attempted to purify the soul of the Catholic Church by apologising for 2000 years of "sins" committed by the church – quite some compensation for twenty centuries of terrorism, extortion and murder!

And yet – September 2000 – the same John Paul II issues "Dominus Jesus (Lord Jesus)", reaffirming intolerance: "Only one path to God – the Roman Catholic Church."

And the story does not end:
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Still the evil continues...
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Child sex abuse scandal rocks the US Catholic Church

"The Roman Catholic Church has removed 218 priests from their positions this year because of child sexual abuse allegations, but at least 34 known offenders remain in church jobs"- Reuters (June 9 2002)

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Anti-abortion

Anti-birth control

Creator of "saints"

31 July, 2003 "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" condemns same sex deviants who seek marriage. In contrast, no Vatican condemnation of priestly paedophiles

1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ – – 1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ 1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ
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#1345 Bill Sikes

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:26 AM

I think you missed the point that Norman was trying to make though, or are looking past it in a sense. God(s) are generally made in the image of their conjureres. It's why Hindus had Indian looking gods, why early Christians, who were Middle-Eastern Jews for all intents and purposes, had a Jew who was a Man-God, why Nordic people had Nordic looking Gods, etc...

If the Hindus of ancient India had kangaroos, there'd most likely be a kangaroo-god, instead of a monkey god or a god with an elephant's head. What would have been really profound is if Jesus was Japanese or Mexican. Now surely that would have been an impossibility that would have lended some credibility to a divine act of insemination. If Thor was a black guy, that would have been something remarkable

....BUT, none of that happened....human beings created a god or gods in their own image. They chose the manifestation of human form to look like them, because that's all they really knew.

It's all just made up stories people and your god(s) are simply characters in those stories.

The Christian God is more known because a powerful civilization adopted that story as it was most popular and on the rise to replace the pagan one that was on the decline. With the conquering of territory things like religion invariably made its way into the conquered lands and people. That's how Islam grew and how Christianity grew. If the hindus had the same lust for territory and zeolotorious proselytizing at the point of the sword, much of Asia Minor may have well been Hindu, hundreds, if not thousands of years before Christ was ever born.

It's all made up stories.

Grow up and let go of the safety blanket. Be good and kind and merciful and generous and loving for their own sake and not because some fictional, man-made god or book tells/asks/commands you too. Trust me, you be those things without the thought of someone or something judging you or watching over your shoulder, like a celestial big brother, making you feel guilty and monitored, you'll enjoy those selfless acts so much more, because they have no more reward than how it makes you feel and how it makes others feel, which is enough reward on its own.

Theism and Deism is bullsh!$.

Edit....And thus ends my Sunday sermon, please help yourself with some cookies on your way out. (Apologies for turning my response to you into a rant, Nevise.)

I agree with most of this, much of scripture from any religion is metaphorical, it is originally composed as poetry and song, because it is much easier to remember, and few people could read or write, the people who composed them were more concerned with rhyme and rhythm than literal accuracy, they used imagery that the simple superstitious people of the time could relate to.

Edited by Norman Clegg, 24 September 2012 - 04:40 AM.

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
Blaise Pascal

#1346 Bill Sikes

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:31 AM

Yet funny how when Xenophanes rejected the polytheistic view of the gods of the Greeks (as explanations for natural phenomenon) he still went on to say this:
"There is one God... similar to mortals neither in shape nor thought... remote and effortless he governs all there is."

Wasn't debating whether there is one or more, only how man has given human form to something we can't begin to comprehend to make it easier for the masses to relate to. The ancient druids also apparently had a saying

"The one God has many faces"

most polytheistic cultures I am familiar with had one God who was chief among them (Odin, Zeuss, Ra) any thoughts that they and the Abrahamic God are one in the same? Just different people interpreting in different ways?
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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
Blaise Pascal

#1347 Nevlach

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 06:08 AM

Wasn't debating whether there is one or more, only how man has given human form to something we can't begin to comprehend to make it easier for the masses to relate to. The ancient druids also apparently had a saying

"The one God has many faces"

most polytheistic cultures I am familiar with had one God who was chief among them (Odin, Zeuss, Ra) any thoughts that they and the Abrahamic God are one in the same? Just different people interpreting in different ways?

Yeah I think Xenophanes was referring to a deistic god and not a personal god when he said "there was only one" it seems to me like that's what he meant anyway.
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#1348 Heretic

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:34 AM

Okay, now you're just trying way too hard to stretch things to fit into a neat little box. You would actually have more credibility if you acknowledged that the Bible isn't infallible. It would demonstrate that you actually are a logical, rational person that should be taken seriously. Instead, you've gone in the other direction. A reasonable person would not try to claim that the Bible spoke of dinosaurs.

Edit: And yes, I looked at your link. Was that website made by a sixth grader in 1996? Anyway, it's a stretch, at best. Like I said, it's not advancing your argument in any meaningful way, that's for sure.


It was the first one of many that popped up - do I believe everything on that page? Nope.

BTW - the word dickhead doesn't appear in the Bible neither - doesn't mean they don't exist.

Edited by Heretic, 24 September 2012 - 07:39 AM.

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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#1349 Heretic

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:39 AM

Wow are you and that article reaching .... But here is some facts of history about your all loving Christianity.1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ

10th Century Obscenities
Vile Princes of the Papacy


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skipped to save internet bandwidth
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31 July, 2003 "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" condemns same sex deviants who seek marriage. In contrast, no Vatican condemnation of priestly paedophiles

1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ – – 1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ 1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ


wow - I did not know that.

BTW, here's a link showing how more atrocities have been committed by non religious.

http://www.godandsci...atrocities.html

Pre-20th Century Democide and Totals:
Religious: 2,650,000
Non Religious: 133,147,000
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#1350 Sharpshooter

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:07 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6wL1IvMuWo



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