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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1471 Kryten

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:09 PM

I think it seems that way because partially it is but I also never said the discussion is futile...just that we're all idiots for having it. I may not have been a big part of this little thread but I was at least a moderate part of the old behemoth that was the god thread. Circular arguments being made over and over and over again for thousands of pages filled with good discussion, incredible insights incredible ignorance (from all angles) and very little movement. But very little movement means some and that where what you're talking about comes in with your personal story.

The discussion is silly in that nothing will ever get resolved and the reality is there is no "knowing" which is why we're all idiots, (I said we that time so as not to confuse ;)  )  but futile would mean there is no purpose which I don't believe is the case on the whole. Some conversations that go on are...like the one I had last night...but that's bound to happen from time to time.


Sadly I missed the behemoth god thread but I get your point and I am glad you understand mine.
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#1472 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:09 PM

What defines a religion anyway? Buddhists don't believe in god but are classified as a religion.

Religion Definition:

1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purposeof the universe, especially when considered as the creationof a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involvingdevotional and ritual observances, and often containing amoral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generallyagreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christianreligion; the Buddhist religion.


Well atheist have a common belief considering cause, nature, and purpose of the universe (i.e. Came from nothing, governed by the laws of physics, there is no purpose). No rituals or observances. Common code of conduct - generally humanism or something similar.

Again not saying atheism is a religion...just want to make sure everyone is clear on that :P
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#1473 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:10 PM

I can not state this clear enough...

ATHEISM IS NOT AN ORGANIZATION!


Basic logic failure.



All men are mortal.
All Greeks are men.
∴ All Greeks are mortal.

:picard:
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#1474 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:13 PM

Basic logic failure.



All men are mortal.
All Greeks are men.
∴ All Greeks are mortal.

:picard:

That was my feeling.
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#1475 Heretic

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:13 PM

The American Atheist Association may very well be an "organization". Atheism is not.


So....so what? Atheism is a word - just like say Christianity and Buddhism...none of them are "organizations" but their are organizations of each of those.

No one said atheism is a religion - what was said is, a some atheists and some atheist organizations have the same characteristics of a religion.
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#1476 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:14 PM

It's a miracle!


Hallelujah!
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#1477 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:17 PM

I fail to see how the dissimilarities between atheism itself and Christianity itself negate the fact that atheists and atheistic organizations seem to be pretty similar to religious organizations and the people therein.

Is baldness a haristyle? No obviously not (similar to why I said atheism is not a religion above). But is it similar to a haristyle? Sure; both deal with hair, appearances, the head, perhaps even impacting one's outlook - as in "I feel self conscious and anxious about my bald head" or "I think my bald head is awesome."

Many atheistic organizations carry themselves very similarly to how certain religious organizations carry themselves. And often atheists are just about as passionate in their unbelief as the religious are in their beliefs.


So....Christians organize in order to worship, Atheists organize in order to worship non-belief?, Christianity is a religion, therefore Atheism is a religion??

Again, basic logic failure.

Tell me, what similarities leads you to conclude that non-belief of deities looks like a religion, as religion has been defined previously in this thread, as the belief in deities?
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#1478 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:22 PM

So....so what? Atheism is a word - just like say Christianity and Buddhism...none of them are "organizations" but their are organizations of each of those.

No one said atheism is a religion - what was said is, a some atheists and some atheist organizations have the same characteristics of a religion.

And yet no one seems to be able to understand this is what I said after I've said it like 10 times.

Thank you Heretic.
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#1479 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:22 PM

So....Christians organize in order to worship, Atheists organize in order to worship non-belief?, Christianity is a religion, therefore Atheism is a religion??

Again, basic logic failure.

Tell me, what similarities leads you to conclude that non-belief of deities looks like a religion, as religion has been defined previously in this thread, as the belief in deities?

Why do atheists organize?
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#1480 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:32 PM

Why do atheists organize?


It's a feature of evolution for members of a social species to.

Atheists, the ones in TOML's example seem to be organizing for whatever purpose they've decided to.
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#1481 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:35 PM

And yet no one seems to be able to understand this is what I said after I've said it like 10 times.

Thank you Heretic.


That's because you keep talking out of both sides of your mouth.

"I never said Atheism is a religion, but I'm saying that it sure as heck looks like one" *wink wink*

Right now, it's just the two sides of your mouth you're speaking from.....keep this line of nonsense up and I'll have no reason left but to conclude that you're speaking from another orifice.
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#1482 Kryten

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:36 PM

Why do atheists organize?


One example I know of is to battle the oppression of religion on children in science class. This letter and subsequent organization birthed by Bobby Henderson meant to block fundamentalist Christians from implanting their particular belief system into the science classes of Kansas schools.

http://www.venganza....ut/open-letter/
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#1483 Heretic

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:41 PM

It's a feature of evolution for members of a social species to.

Atheists, the ones in TOML's example seem to be organizing for whatever purpose they've decided to.


"Dr. Haidt believes that religion has played an important role in human evolution by strengthening and extending the cohesion provided by the moral systems. “If we didn’t have religious minds we would not have stepped through the transition to groupishness,” he said. “We’d still be just small bands roving around.”"

http://www.nytimes.c...=rssnyt&emc=rss
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#1484 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:42 PM

That's because you keep talking out of both sides of your mouth.

"I never said Atheism is a religion, but I'm saying that it sure as heck looks like one" *wink wink*

Right now, it's just the two sides of your mouth you're speaking from.....keep this line of nonsense up and I'll have no reason left but to conclude that you're speaking from another orifice.

Hey well if I were to say religious and atheistic organizations don't resemble each other I would be lying. To say there are no similarities (take for example my original list of checks) is to just be lying to one's self.

Are there really no similarities between them in your mind?

Atheistic organizations don't try and convert people to share a similar view, they don't think their ways are the right ways, the don't share common values or ideas (ex. Science is the only way to know truth, humanism, secularism etc.), or ask to donate money to what they perceive are worthy causes, or band together to promote shared interests (see Kryten's example of why they organize).

edit
Anyway I'm out for a bit to quote a certain movie character:
"I got better things to do than dick around with you all day"
;)

Edited by Nevlach, 25 September 2012 - 12:48 PM.

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#1485 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:50 PM

Why do atheists organize?


Again, being an atheist who doesn't "organize" (at least not with other atheists), I couldn't say for certain but I'd wager it has something to do with my earlier post:

So a lack of belief in god due to a complete and utter lack of evidence and a desire to combat ignorance that affects our daily lives and governance is now considered a religion...?


When religious groups are actively funding, infiltrating, interfering with and generally @#$%'ing up governments despite previous attempts and laws to separate them from governance, it would make sense that like-minded, atheist individuals might band together to actively combat those influences.

As such, organizations which have atheist members have likely sprung up. If anything that would place them closer to a political movement or special interest group than a "religion" IMO. Particularly as their is a distinct lack of worship, deities, dogma etc normally associated with religion.
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#1486 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:53 PM

Hey well if I were to say religious and atheistic organizations don't resemble each other I would be lying. To say there are no similarities (take for example my original list of checks) is to just be lying to one's self.

Are there really no similarities between them in your mind?

Atheistic organizations don't try and convert people to share a similar view, they don't think their ways are the right ways, the don't share common values or ideas (ex. Science is the only way to know truth, humanism, secularism etc.), or ask to donate money to what they perceive are worthy causes, or band together to promote shared interests (see Kryten's example of why they organize).

edit
Anyway I'm out for a bit to quote a certain movie character:
"I got better things to do than dick around with you all day"
;)


Things can share similarities without being the same thing... It's small minded, lacking critical thinking etc.

Feathers and leaves are similar. Do birds grow leaves?

Edited by J.R., 25 September 2012 - 12:56 PM.

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#1487 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:54 PM

Hey well if I were to say religious and atheistic organizations don't resemble each other I would be lying. To say there are no similarities (take for example my original list of checks) is to just be lying to one's self.

Are there really no similarities between them in your mind?

Atheistic organizations don't try and convert people to share a similar view, they don't think their ways are the right ways, the don't share common values or ideas (ex. Science is the only way to know truth, humanism, secularism etc.), or ask to donate money to what they perceive are worthy causes, or band together to promote shared interests (see Kryten's example of why they organize).


Your problem, like the other pot-stirrer, who chimes in once a day with his atheism is a religion bullcrap, is that you're trying to assign similarities between the people who make up the label Atheists...which is actually a broad range of non-believers and agnostics and the people who are defined as being religious, or followers of a religion.

That does not make non-belief the same as belief, with regards to the doctrines of the supernatural.

If an atheist is stubborn, like a religious person is stubborn, that doesn't make non-belief the same as belief in the supernatural, and therefore make atheism equal to theism or certain theologies.

Again, it's a complete logic fail on your part. But, if you want to keep talking out of your backside like TOML on this point, please be my guest. Your table for two at the idiotic eatery will be ready shortly. Try the chef's mockery, it's delicious.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 25 September 2012 - 12:55 PM.

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#1488 Heretic

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:59 PM

Things can share similarities without being the same thing... It's small minded, lacking critical thinking etc.

Feathers and leaves are similar do birds grow leaves?


There are many human beings who consider themselves Christians.
Are you saying there are no human beings that consider themselves atheists?
Of course not - that's nonsense.
Again - no one said atheism is a religion - we said some people who are atheists act the same way as some of those in a religion. There are some atheist organizations that act the same as some Christian ones.
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#1489 Shift-4

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:08 PM

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#1490 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:15 PM

Again - no one said atheism is a religion...


Pretty sure that's EXACTLY what TML keeps arguing for...
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#1491 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:36 PM

As such, organizations which have atheist members have likely sprung up. If anything that would place them closer to a political movement or special interest group than a "religion" IMO. Particularly as their is a distinct lack of worship, deities, dogma etc normally associated with religion.

I'd agree that a special interest group or political movement is much more apt than a religion for atheist organizations.
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#1492 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:59 PM

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#1493 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:32 PM

"Dr. Haidt believes that religion has played an important role in human evolution by strengthening and extending the cohesion provided by the moral systems. “If we didn’t have religious minds we would not have stepped through the transition to groupishness,” he said. “We’d still be just small bands roving around.”"

http://www.nytimes.c...=rssnyt&emc=rss


may we and the planet we live on would be better off if this was the case .
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#1494 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:00 PM

Your problem, like the other pot-stirrer, who chimes in once a day with his atheism is a religion bullcrap, is that you're trying to assign similarities between the people who make up the label Atheists...which is actually a broad range of non-believers and agnostics and the people who are defined as being religious, or followers of a religion.

That does not make non-belief the same as belief, with regards to the doctrines of the supernatural.

If an atheist is stubborn, like a religious person is stubborn, that doesn't make non-belief the same as belief in the supernatural, and therefore make atheism equal to theism or certain theologies.

Again, it's a complete logic fail on your part. But, if you want to keep talking out of your backside like TOML on this point, please be my guest. Your table for two at the idiotic eatery will be ready shortly. Try the chef's mockery, it's delicious.

You'd probably get through to more people if you weren't such a dick my friend haha.

In anycase I would say your problem is trying to put words in my mouth. My only point is that both groups share similarities. They tend to group by like minded associations and common beliefs (and by beliefs I don't mean a belief in God, I mean naturalism, materialism, secularism, humanism etc).

I never said it made them the same thing, though regardless of whether one believes, lacks a belief, or does not believe they have made a stand with regards to the supernatural.

Again I never was claiming atheism and theism were the same. I never was even talking about atheism and religion (as concepts, I was talking about associations where atheism and theism are a common belief trait within). (There is a difference between atheism, theism, deism and religions...as I've said many times).

You can say I'm making a complete logic fail some more if you'd like. People say lots of things that =\= the truth. Every time today I've read one of your responses to what I write I question whether you bothered to read it at all or whether you just don't like the idea that someone could see similarities between two groups when one of those groups you want to be a distant from as possible.

Of course if you want to say I'm equating atheism and religion or belief one more time I'm sure there's plenty of straw left in the hayfield.

Edited by Nevlach, 25 September 2012 - 03:02 PM.

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#1495 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:09 PM

Again, being an atheist who doesn't "organize" (at least not with other atheists), I couldn't say for certain but I'd wager it has something to do with my earlier post:



When religious groups are actively funding, infiltrating, interfering with and generally @#$%'ing up governments despite previous attempts and laws to separate them from governance, it would make sense that like-minded, atheist individuals might band together to actively combat those influences.

As such, organizations which have atheist members have likely sprung up. If anything that would place them closer to a political movement or special interest group than a "religion" IMO. Particularly as their is a distinct lack of worship, deities, dogma etc normally associated with religion.

See I don't disagree with anything you've said here. We could compare atheistic organizations to political groups the same way I've compared them to religious groups and organizations.

A group of people with similar ideals trying to promote them over another group with different ideals and beliefs. The biggest difference is that religious groups tend to want to include God or the Bible in every decision they make (ex. gay rights or abortion etc).

*Waits for Sharpshooter to come tell me that atheism does not equal a political party* :P

Edited by Nevlach, 25 September 2012 - 03:10 PM.

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#1496 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:36 PM

See I don't disagree with anything you've said here. We could compare atheistic organizations to political groups the same way I've compared them to religious groups and organizations.

A group of people with similar ideals trying to promote them over another group with different ideals and beliefs. The biggest difference is that religious groups tend to want to include God or the Bible in every decision they make (ex. gay rights or abortion etc).

*Waits for Sharpshooter to come tell me that atheism does not equal a political party* :P


That's a pretty big difference!

And yes I compared them, that doesn't mean I think Atheists in general are a political group anymore than I think Canucks fans are (or a religion) despite the obvious similarities. So what exactly is your point? Do you even have one beyond that there are "loose parallels" between groups of like-minded/"goaled" individuals? Do I need to find a "Captain Obvious" meme?
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#1497 J.R.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:37 PM

Hey guys! Newsflash:

Like minded people with similar goals will occasionally band together in groups!!!

Edited by J.R., 25 September 2012 - 03:37 PM.

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#1498 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:45 PM

That's a pretty big difference!

And yes I compared them, that doesn't mean I think Atheists in general are a political group anymore than I think Canucks fans are (or a religion) despite the obvious similarities. So what exactly is your point? Do you even have one beyond that there are "loose parallels" between groups of like-minded/"goaled" individuals? Do I need to find a "Captain Obvious" meme?

That's a pretty big difference!

And yes I compared them, that doesn't mean I think Atheists in general are a political group anymore than I think Canucks fans are (or a religion) despite the obvious similarities. So what exactly is your point? Do you even have one beyond that there are "loose parallels" between groups of like-minded/"goaled" individuals? Do I need to find a "Captain Obvious" meme?

Perhaps I should have said "religious groups want to include god and atheist groups want to remove god."

My point was the two groups are more similar than people on here were realizing and I could see how someone could confuse atheists as a religious group. Also that both groups use their common beliefs to try and convince others that their way is the best way (see the examples I listed above...naturalism etc). It's not just religious groups trying to convince everyone they are right.

I don't know how it got turned into such a huge thing...

Edited by Nevlach, 25 September 2012 - 03:49 PM.

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#1499 Nevlach

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:45 PM

Hey guys! Newsflash:

Like minded people with similar goals will occasionally band together in groups!!!

And try to "convert" more people to join their groups!!!
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#1500 Pouria

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:48 PM

Your problem, like the other pot-stirrer, who chimes in once a day with his atheism is a religion bullcrap, is that you're trying to assign similarities between the people who make up the label Atheists...which is actually a broad range of non-believers and agnostics and the people who are defined as being religious, or followers of a religion.

That does not make non-belief the same as belief, with regards to the doctrines of the supernatural.

If an atheist is stubborn, like a religious person is stubborn, that doesn't make non-belief the same as belief in the supernatural, and therefore make atheism equal to theism or certain theologies.

Again, it's a complete logic fail on your part. But, if you want to keep talking out of your backside like TOML on this point, please be my guest. Your table for two at the idiotic eatery will be ready shortly. Try the chef's mockery, it's delicious.


What is with all the insults? You can't argue a point like a mature person? You might disagree with something, fine but don't insult people and call them idiots. Just make your point to answer their questions, no need for the extra crap added in at the end. This is why CDC has a crap reputation. No one can discuss something without getting insulted.
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