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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1621 Sharpshooter

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:59 PM

I didn't think you believed in corroborative evidence! ;)


I most certainly believe in empirical and observable corroborative evidence.

Silly rabbit.....i mean leprechaun.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 27 September 2012 - 01:59 PM.

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#1622 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:59 PM

Why limit belief in god to such a fundie branch of believers who claim the world is only 6000 years old? MANY believers do not think that and the Hebrews certainly never believed that. Young earth creationism is a relatively new belief. Can that co-exist with science? Obviously not, but let's not limit religion or belief in a God to such foolish beliefs like that.

And Jesus = Horus. False. Though it is a common mythicist misconception. Did you get that info from the Zeitgeist? Just a word of caution to not believe everything you hear and check your sources mate.

Good to hear you admit that you do have some faith though in things that can't be proven :)


Please do not confuse me with some random conspiracy sheep. I have a mind and can actually use it . I am not so easily swayed by some internet propaganda.


Some parallels between Horus and Jesus Christ:

1. Horus born of a virgin. <> Jesus born of a virgin.

2. The foster father of Horus was Seb or Seph. <> Jesus was fostered by Joseph.

3. Horus was of royal descent. <> Jesus was of royal descent.

4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. <> Jesus birth accompanied by three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed by a star “in the east” bearing gifts.

5. The birth of Horus announced by angels. <> The birth of Jesus announced by angels.

6. Herut tried to murder the infant Horus. <> Herod slaughtered every first born in an attempt to kill Jesus the forthcoming messiah.

7. Horus is baptized at age 30 by Anup the Baptiser at a river. <> Jesus is baptized at age 30 by John the Baptist at a river.

8. Horus resists temptation by the evil Sut [Sut was to be the precursor for the Hebrew Satan] on a high mountain. <> Jesus resists temptation by Satan on a high mountain.

9. Horus had 12 followers. <> Jesus had 12 disciples.

10. Horus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water. <> Jesus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water.

11. Horus raised someone from the grave [his father Osiris] <> Jesus raised Lazarus [notice the name similarity] from the grave. Lazarus is short for Elasarus - the “us” on the end is romanized. Elasarus was derived from “El-Asar” which was the name given to Osiris.

12. Horus was buried and resurrected in the city of Anu. <> The place Bethany mentioned in John was a derivative of the words “Bet” and “Anu” which translates “the house of Anu”. The ‘y’ on the end of bethany is interchangeable with the letter ‘u’.

13. Horus was killed by crucifixtion. <> Jesus was crucified.

14. Horus was accompanied by two thieves at the crucifixtion. <> Jesus was crucified with two thieves.

15. Horus was buried in a tomb at Anu. <> Jesus was buried in a tomb located in Bethany [Bet-Anu].

16. Horus was resurrected after 3 days. <> Jesus was “said” to resurrected after over a period of three days.

17. The resurrection of Horus was announced by three women. <> The resurrection of Jesus was announced by three women.

18. Horus was given the titel KRST which means “anointed one” <> Jesus was given the title Christ [Christos] meaning “anointed one”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus a little excerpt : Horus served many functions in the Egyptian pantheon, most notably being the god of the sun, war and protection.


A little more fuel for thought. It is s quite clear through solid tangible evidence the story of Jesus is a plagiarism of HORUS

There is plenty more evidence that supports this read the concordance of the bible and you will start connecting the dots about the truth of Christianity. I was raised into the religion and when old enough to cast down my oppressive culture I have never been more enlightened and felt more spiritual.

Edited by vanfan73, 27 September 2012 - 02:10 PM.

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#1623 Super19

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:05 PM

Who here is a miso-theist? Be honest now.
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#1624 Sharpshooter

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:05 PM

^ Not bad vanfan73, not bad at all.
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#1625 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:06 PM

To help Heretic and JR here is the definition of anti-theism from The Skeptics Dictionary:

"Anti-theism is active and vocal opposition to belief in gods of any sort and to institutions built around belief in a deity. Anti-theists are not passive atheists; they delight in atheism and delight in exposing the errors, absurdities, and pretensions of theists. Anti-theists consider all gods to be false gods and any benefits from belief in gods to be far outweighed by the harm done by such beliefs to the individual and to society. Anti-theists don't deny that there may be some benefits to some people some of the time due to their delusional belief in a deity or two, but they adamantly deny that faith in religious books or ideas is a good thing."

Is this or is this not your stance JR?

If yes --> end debate

If no --> end debate

Some famous anti-theists include Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens.

To help Heretic and JR here is the definition of anti-theism from The Skeptics Dictionary:

"Anti-theism is active and vocal opposition to belief in gods of any sort and to institutions built around belief in a deity. Anti-theists are not passive atheists; they delight in atheism and delight in exposing the errors, absurdities, and pretensions of theists. Anti-theists consider all gods to be false gods and any benefits from belief in gods to be far outweighed by the harm done by such beliefs to the individual and to society. Anti-theists don't deny that there may be some benefits to some people some of the time due to their delusional belief in a deity or two, but they adamantly deny that faith in religious books or ideas is a good thing."

Is this or is this not your stance JR?

If yes --> end debate

If no --> end debate

Some famous anti-theists include Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens.


See now, hold the phone...

According to Wiki:

Antitheism (sometimes anti-theism) is active opposition to theism. The term has had a range of applications; in secular contexts, it typically refers to direct opposition to organized religion or to the belief in any deity, while in a theistic context, it sometimes refers to opposition to a specific god or gods.

An antitheist is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "One opposed to belief in the existence of a god." The earliest citation given for this meaning is from 1833. An antitheist may be opposed to belief in the existence of any god or gods, and not merely one in particular.


So what is the "standard" definition...?
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#1626 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:09 PM

@vanfan73
I'm going to let you research all those Horus vs. Christ parallel claims carefully and if you still believe all of them at a later date I'll respond. I'm going to assume you know how to unbiasedly critique each of those parallels to come to an answer that's not just Christian or Mythicist propaganda but rather the truth of the matter.
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#1627 Sharpshooter

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:09 PM

Who here is a miso-theist? Be honest now.


Your new word of the week? :lol:

I tease, I tease. :P

And no, I'm not a miso-theist, because I can't hate what I don't see any evidence of actually existing. Conversely, I don't love that which I see no evidence of existing either.

However, if you're asking me if I hate the notion of a particular god, then you'd have to define which god, and i'd have to judge the stories associated with the characteristics of that god in the fables associated with it.
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#1628 Super19

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:11 PM

For the non religious here, what do you base your views of Jesus off of? Bible or Qur'an?
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#1629 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:11 PM

@vanfan73
I'm going to let you research all those Horus vs. Christ parallel claims carefully and if you still believe all of them at a later date I'll respond. I'm going to assume you know how to unbiasedly critique each of those parallels to come to an answer that's not just Christian or Mythicist propaganda but rather the truth of the matter.


A neat-o collection of historical fables? Did I get it right?!
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#1630 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:11 PM

See now, hold the phone...

According to Wiki:



So what is the "standard" definition...?

Well one can be opposed to the belief in god (as displayed in the religions of the world) without be certain on whether god exists or not.

If you remember atheist used to mean "one who does not believe in god or gods" whereas now-a-days it typically means "one who lacks a belief in god or gods."

I would say just go with what you're more comfortable with calling yourself. To me you seem like an agnostic anti-theist haha.
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#1631 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:13 PM

A neat-o collection of historical fables? Did I get it right?!

Haha.

But the question is whether those parallels are accurate.

I'll give you half a point ;)
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#1632 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:14 PM

^ Not bad vanfan73, not bad at all.


Oh but there is more Sharps much more :emot-parrot:

The lineage of Horus, the eventual product of unions between the children of Atum, may have been a means to explain and justify Pharaonic power; The gods produced by Atum were all representative of cosmic and terrestrial forces in Egyptian life; by identifying Horus as the offspring of these forces, then identifying him with Atum himself, and finally identifying the Pharaoh with Horus, the Pharaoh theologically had dominion over all the world.

After burying my oldest and my closest friend last night I realized something very profound. As I went to pay my respects to the family I attended the night mass and as I pulled up to the Church I felt deep sadness. Not for the loss of my dear friend (he has transcended the physical) but for the souls inside who need a man to give them salvation through fear. It sickened my when I was young at the Vatican celebrating 1000 years of Christianity in the Ukraine in the summer of 1988 and it sickens me now that this elaborate tapestry of plagiarized lies is misguiding simple honest people who do not actively search out truths in their FAITH.

That type of ignorance cannot be undone so it seems that easliy. It is a hard battle to sift through the worlds knowledge but one must take what they can when it is given to them, but I implore all people of all faiths do more than just obediently bowing at some words you dont know where they even come from.

Edited by vanfan73, 27 September 2012 - 02:41 PM.

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#1633 Heretic

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:15 PM

Please do not confuse me with some random conspiracy sheep. I have a mind and can actually use it . I am not so easily swayed by some internet propaganda.


Some parallels between Horus and Jesus Christ:

1. Horus born of a virgin. <> Jesus born of a virgin.

2. The foster father of Horus was Seb or Seph. <> Jesus was fostered by Joseph.

3. Horus was of royal descent. <> Jesus was of royal descent.

4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. <> Jesus birth accompanied by three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed by a star “in the east” bearing gifts.

5. The birth of Horus announced by angels. <> The birth of Jesus announced by angels.

6. Herut tried to murder the infant Horus. <> Herod slaughtered every first born in an attempt to kill Jesus the forthcoming messiah.

7. Horus is baptized at age 30 by Anup the Baptiser at a river. <> Jesus is baptized at age 30 by John the Baptist at a river.

8. Horus resists temptation by the evil Sut [Sut was to be the precursor for the Hebrew Satan] on a high mountain. <> Jesus resists temptation by Satan on a high mountain.

9. Horus had 12 followers. <> Jesus had 12 disciples.

10. Horus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water. <> Jesus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water.

11. Horus raised someone from the grave [his father Osiris] <> Jesus raised Lazarus [notice the name similarity] from the grave. Lazarus is short for Elasarus - the “us” on the end is romanized. Elasarus was derived from “El-Asar” which was the name given to Osiris.

12. Horus was buried and resurrected in the city of Anu. <> The place Bethany mentioned in John was a derivative of the words “Bet” and “Anu” which translates “the house of Anu”. The ‘y’ on the end of bethany is interchangeable with the letter ‘u’.

13. Horus was killed by crucifixtion. <> Jesus was crucified.

14. Horus was accompanied by two thieves at the crucifixtion. <> Jesus was crucified with two thieves.

15. Horus was buried in a tomb at Anu. <> Jesus was buried in a tomb located in Bethany [Bet-Anu].

16. Horus was resurrected after 3 days. <> Jesus was “said” to resurrected after over a period of three days.

17. The resurrection of Horus was announced by three women. <> The resurrection of Jesus was announced by three women.

18. Horus was given the titel KRST which means “anointed one” <> Jesus was given the title Christ [Christos] meaning “anointed one”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus a little excerpt : Horus served many functions in the Egyptian pantheon, most notably being the god of the sun, war and protection.


A little more fuel for thought. It is s quite clear through solid tangible evidence the story of Jesus is a plagiarism of HORUS

There is plenty more evidence that supports this read the concordance of the bible and you will start connecting the dots about the truth of Christianity. I was raised into the religion and when old enough to cast down my oppressive culture I have never been more enlightened and felt more spiritual.


Well...that's just wrong...


"Claim: Horus was conceived by a virgin mother named Meri, and had a stepfather named Seb (Joseph)
Truth: Horus was NOT conceived of a virgin. In fact both mural and textual evidence from Egypt indicate that Isis (there is no evidence that “Meri” was ever part of her name) hovered over the erect penis (that she created) of Osiris and conceived Horus. While she may have been a virgin before the conception, she utilizes Osiris’ penis to conceive. She later had another son with Osiris as well. There is no evidence of three wise men as part of the story at all (in neither Horus’ nor Jesus’ birth story for that matter!). Seb was actually the ‘earth god’, (earth itself, just as Nut was the sky); He was not Horus’ earthly father. Seb is NOT the equivalent of Joseph and, in most cases, he is described as Osiris’ father!"

http://www.pleasecon..._the_Horus_Myth

Edited by Heretic, 27 September 2012 - 02:16 PM.

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#1634 Heretic

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:17 PM

Just for laughs:

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#1635 J.R.

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:18 PM

Well one can be opposed to the belief in god (as displayed in the religions of the world) without be certain on whether god exists or not.

If you remember atheist used to mean "one who does not believe in god or gods" whereas now-a-days it typically means "one who lacks a belief in god or gods."

I would say just go with what you're more comfortable with calling yourself. To me you seem like an agnostic anti-theist haha.


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#1636 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:24 PM

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#1637 Super19

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:28 PM

Your new word of the week? :lol:

I tease, I tease. :P

And no, I'm not a miso-theist, because I can't hate what I don't see any evidence of actually existing. Conversely, I don't love that which I see no evidence of existing either.

However, if you're asking me if I hate the notion of a particular god, then you'd have to define which god, and i'd have to judge the stories associated with the characteristics of that god in the fables associated with it.

lol

Okay, fair enough. Thanks for your honest answer Sharpie. And I think I have the idea as to what your notions to the Abrhamic God or specifically, Allah would be.
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#1638 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:33 PM

For the non religious here, what do you base your views of Jesus off of? Bible or Qur'an?


Currentyl I am reading parts of the Qu'ran to understand the parallels between the 2 largest faiths on the planet . Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Qu'ron is he not ? The teachings and meanings are beauty in itself but the result of these writings have taken mankind far off the mark of the true intent of theses scriptures. There is no arguing that within the last 2000 years of Holy war in the middle East and all the bombings world wide in the name of some religious deity that man has clearly let his own experiment run unattended for far to long . I will not and cannot discredit faith in the pure true definition of Love. What I can do is not participate in the destruction of morality and life with the misguided actions of blind followers that choose not to seek out the actual true origins of their faith.
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#1639 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:34 PM

Science doesn't fight religion. It ignores it. (Right?)

However, those with an antitheistic agenda would use science to crucify religion.

The response from theists is usually, well, science can't disprove ghosts, ESP, visions, historical miracles, etc. or anything supernatural, so how can it disprove God, let lone religion?

The result is neverending debate from two sides with an unyielding agenda.


The problem with using science to disprove religion is that it is based on empiricism. Experience, evidence and sensory perception can only take the human mind so far. You can't use science to disprove what it cannot possibly reach.

While religion might be archaic, at least it attempts to explain the unexplainable, whereas those things are out of science's reach, and that's why science and religion are mutually exclusive.


The science vs. religion debate is folly, since by definition the sides can never come together. Still, i can see progress being made when science and religion do work together. It would be nice if scientists were able to open their minds a bit and if religious people realized that some of their archaic beliefs aren't even worth having.


not many people on this forum seem interested in science , any thread that is started seems to be ignored .
it seems people would rather talk about women with facial hair ,or an upcoming shortage of bacon .
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#1640 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:38 PM

Well...that's just wrong...


"Claim: Horus was conceived by a virgin mother named Meri, and had a stepfather named Seb (Joseph)
Truth: Horus was NOT conceived of a virgin. In fact both mural and textual evidence from Egypt indicate that Isis (there is no evidence that “Meri” was ever part of her name) hovered over the erect penis (that she created) of Osiris and conceived Horus. While she may have been a virgin before the conception, she utilizes Osiris’ penis to conceive. She later had another son with Osiris as well. There is no evidence of three wise men as part of the story at all (in neither Horus’ nor Jesus’ birth story for that matter!). Seb was actually the ‘earth god’, (earth itself, just as Nut was the sky); He was not Horus’ earthly father. Seb is NOT the equivalent of Joseph and, in most cases, he is described as Osiris’ father!"

http://www.pleasecon..._the_Horus_Myth


Remember I did say parallels :) See what we have here is a proper debate but I ask you who is right? Can either of us actually prove these claims. No . We were not around to witness the acts or results of these mythical or supernatural events that today make up the worlds religions. man has created this rollercoaster ride and it is way out of control.

Edited by vanfan73, 27 September 2012 - 02:42 PM.

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#1641 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:41 PM

See what we have here is a proper debate but I ask you who is right? Can either of us actually prove these claims. No . We were not around to witness the acts or results of these mythical or supernatural events that today make up the worlds religions. man has created this rollercoaster ride and it is way out of control.

You can prove the parallels though...

For example in the Bible we can actually read that "Jesus walked on water."

For Horus I can read it...where...?

Edited by Nevlach, 27 September 2012 - 02:50 PM.

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#1642 Heretic

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:45 PM

Remember I did say parallels :) See what we have here is a proper debate but I ask you who is right? Can either of us actually prove these claims. No . We were not around to witness the acts or results of these mythical or supernatural events that today make up the worlds religions. man has created this rollercoaster ride and it is way out of control.


Good point. Fully agree.
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#1643 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:08 PM

Who here is a miso-theist? Be honest now.

Don't you have to believe in god(s) to be a misotheist? I think anti-theist would be more apt here. I wouldn't be too fond of the Abrahamic god as described in the Bible/Quran/Torah if I thought he were real, but I'd have no qualms with other descriptions of deities (eg. the deistic god). I wouldn't consider myself to be an anti-theist because I don't think there's anything inherently bad about believing in deities. It can be destructive, constructive, or neutral depending on the person's ancillary beliefs. The best approach is a case by case basis for beliefs rather than a blanket opposition to theism.
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#1644 Kryten

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:22 PM

For the non religious here, what do you base your views of Jesus off of? Bible or Qur'an?


Neither. My views of Jesus come from South Park and Mel Gibson.
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#1645 Heretic

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:32 PM

Neither. My views of Jesus come from South Park and Mel Gibson.


So does your science view come from the same place?
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#1646 Pouria

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:35 PM

Don't you have to believe in god(s) to be a misotheist? I think anti-theist would be more apt here. I wouldn't be too fond of the Abrahamic god as described in the Bible/Quran/Torah if I thought he were real, but I'd have no qualms with other descriptions of deities (eg. the deistic god). I wouldn't consider myself to be an anti-theist because I don't think there's anything inherently bad about believing in deities. It can be destructive, constructive, or neutral depending on the person's ancillary beliefs. The best approach is a case by case basis for beliefs rather than a blanket opposition to theism.


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#1647 Kryten

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:58 PM

So does your science view come from the same place?


Absolutely not, that would be silly. My views of science are derived from the Bible.
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#1648 Remy

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:01 PM

Ha, oh boy. Anti-theism is the new insult to direct towards non-believers, eh? You're not just non-religious, your ANTI-religious. You know what I'm really wondering, why is that a bad thing? I will make no apologies for anti-theistic viewpoints. I see absolutely no benefit to theism in any way, shape, or form. I think, personally, that belief in God is silly (oh my, was that offensive?). Well, I do happen to feel that believing in God is childish. If you find that offensive, it's actually YOUR problem and not mine.To me, it is ridiculous.

Let me phrase this another way. If I, and J.R. and Sharpshooter, are anti-theistic, then believers in God are anti-science. See how that works? Believing in a supernatural, all-powerful God or Gods is anti-science in the same way that a lack of belief in the same God(s) is anti-theistic. You can easily be categorized as anti-anything. Are you liberal? Well then, how dare you be so anti-conservative! You should be more tolerant!

The logic is weak, gentlemen.
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#1649 Sharpshooter

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:05 PM

Ha, oh boy. Anti-theism is the new insult to direct towards non-believers, eh? You're not just non-religious, your ANTI-religious. You know what I'm really wondering, why is that a bad thing? I will make no apologies for anti-theistic viewpoints. I see absolutely no benefit to theism in any way, shape, or form. I think, personally, that belief in God is silly (oh my, was that offensive?). Well, I do happen to feel that believing in God is childish. If you find that offensive, it's actually YOUR problem and not mine.To me, it is ridiculous.

Let me phrase this another way. If I, and J.R. and Sharpshooter, are anti-theistic, then believers in God are anti-science. See how that works? Believing in a supernatural, all-powerful God or Gods is anti-science in the same way that a lack of belief in the same God(s) is anti-theistic. You can easily be categorized as anti-anything. Are you liberal? Well then, how dare you be so anti-conservative! You should be more tolerant!

The logic is weak, gentlemen.



Personally, my favorite weak sauce argument is that we have a belief in non-belief.

Think about that one. ;)
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#1650 Kryten

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:11 PM

Ha, oh boy. Anti-theism is the new insult to direct towards non-believers, eh? You're not just non-religious, your ANTI-religious. You know what I'm really wondering, why is that a bad thing? I will make no apologies for anti-theistic viewpoints. I see absolutely no benefit to theism in any way, shape, or form. I think, personally, that belief in God is silly (oh my, was that offensive?). Well, I do happen to feel that believing in God is childish. If you find that offensive, it's actually YOUR problem and not mine.To me, it is ridiculous.

Let me phrase this another way. If I, and J.R. and Sharpshooter, are anti-theistic, then believers in God are anti-science. See how that works? Believing in a supernatural, all-powerful God or Gods is anti-science in the same way that a lack of belief in the same God(s) is anti-theistic. You can easily be categorized as anti-anything. Are you liberal? Well then, how dare you be so anti-conservative! You should be more tolerant!

The logic is weak, gentlemen.


Agreed. The labels are much easier to villify than the arguments.
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