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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1651 Kryten

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:13 PM

Personally, my favorite weak sauce argument is that we have a belief in non-belief.

Think about that one.   ;)


I don't know if I believe you. I must be anti-sharpshooterist.
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#1652 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:25 PM

Personally, my favorite weak sauce argument is that we have a belief in non-belief.

Think about that one. ;)

Hey some atheist do :P

I wonder when atheism stopped being "the belief that there is no god" and started being "a lack of belief in god."

It seems to me lacking a belief in god because of lack of evidence is more in line with agnosticism.

As in an agnostic atheist - I do not KNOW there is no God, but I do not believe there is one.
Gnosticism/Agnosticism is about knowledge whereas theism/atheism used to be about belief. Suddenly only theism means belief in god whereas atheism is changing to "lack of belief" even though it didn't used to be.

Edited by Nevlach, 27 September 2012 - 10:29 PM.

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#1653 Remy

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:29 PM

Personally, my favorite weak sauce argument is that we have a belief in non-belief.

Think about that one. ;)


I believe that I don't believe. But I can't really be sure about that, since it's just a "belief" after all, and maybe, as a "belief", it's really just a subjective, personal opinion, right?

The same way that English teachers mark papers "subjectively". As in, we have a strict criteria whereby we examine grammar, structure, content, and syntax in a way that conforms to pre-determined linguistic rules. Yup, completely subjective.
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#1654 Remy

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:31 PM

Hey some atheist do :P

I wonder when atheism stopped being "the belief that there is no god" and started being "a lack of belief in god."

It seems to me lacking a belief in god because of lack of evidence is more in line with agnosticism.

As in an agnostic atheist - I do not KNOW there is no God, but I do not believe there is one.
Gnosticism/Agnosticism is about knowledge whereas theism/atheism used to be about belief. Suddenly only theism means belief in god whereas atheism is changing to "lack of belief" even though it didn't used to be.


I get where you're coming from, but I really don't think it's much of a stretch for atheists to conclude that there is no factual God(s) based on empirical evidence. For example, based on you argument, how can we conclude that unicorns never existed?! This is why the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. It's completely absurd, yet un-disprovable.
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#1655 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:42 PM

I get where you're coming from, but I really don't think it's much of a stretch for atheists to conclude that there is no factual God(s) based on empirical evidence. For example, based on you argument, how can we conclude that unicorns never existed?! This is why the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. It's completely absurd, yet un-disprovable.

I think people misunderstood me earlier during the whole "what does atheism mean" discussion. I think it's entirely reasonable based on the evidence (or lack of) to be an agnostic atheist - to claim that you don't know, but that you don't believe - but I feel like atheists just like to say "lack a belief" because then they don't feel like they're holding an irrational belief in something science can't prove. But we all have beliefs that science can't prove, it's ok to not know something 100% and still believe it.

I mean sure atheists lack a belief, but from looking at history and science if they were to make an inference to the best explanation whats wrong with concluding "hmm I don't believe."

It's even more interesting when they equate a belief in god to a belief in Santa or the Easter bunny - but I'm willing to bet they don't just "lack a belief" in santa or the easter bunny but also do not believe they exist.

With regards to the FSM I can confidently say not only do I lack a belief in it I also do not believe it. Can science disprove him, no maybe not, but I think it's reasonable to conclude he probably doesn't exist therefore I do not believe in him.
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#1656 Kryten

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:47 PM

I get where you're coming from, but I really don't think its much of a stretch for atheists to conclude that there is no factual God(s) based on empirical evidence. For example, based on you argument, how can we conclude that unicorns never existed?! This is why the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. It's completely absurd, yet un-disprovable.


Blasphemer, you will be last in line at the beer volcano :P
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#1657 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:51 PM

I think people misunderstood me earlier during the whole "what does atheism mean" discussion. I think it's entirely reasonable based on the evidence (or lack of) to be an agnostic atheist - to claim that you don't know, but that you don't believe - but I feel like atheists just like to say "lack a belief" because then they don't feel like they're holding an irrational belief in something science can't prove. But we all have beliefs that science can't prove, it's ok to not know something 100% and still believe it.

I mean sure atheists lack a belief, but from looking at history and science if they were to make an inference to the best explanation whats wrong with concluding "hmm I don't believe."

It's even more interesting when they equate a belief in god to a belief in Santa or the Easter bunny - but I'm willing to bet they don't just "lack a belief" in santa or the easter bunny but also do not believe they exist.

With regards to the FSM I can confidently say not only do I lack a belief in it I also do not believe it. Can science disprove him, no maybe not, but I think it's reasonable to conclude he probably doesn't exist therefore I do not believe in him.

By "do not believe" do you mean "believe it doesn't exist"? To me, the former sounds identical in meaning to "lack a belief".
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#1658 Nevlach

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:55 PM

By "do not believe" do you mean "believe it doesn't exist"? To me, the former sounds identical in meaning to "lack a belief".

Ah yes. Full sentence: "I do not believe it exists"

Anywho night all.
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#1659 Sharpshooter

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:00 PM


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#1660 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:02 PM

Ah yes. Full sentence: "I do not believe it exists"

Anywho night all.

But that still doesn't seem to be any different from saying "I lack a belief that it exists". Not believing = lacking belief, not necessarily actively disbelieving, although they're not mutually exclusive. "I believe it doesn't exist", on the other hand, is a positive statement of belief, which seems to be more in line with what you've been talking about. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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#1661 Remy

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:37 PM

I think people misunderstood me earlier during the whole "what does atheism mean" discussion. I think it's entirely reasonable based on the evidence (or lack of) to be an agnostic atheist - to claim that you don't know, but that you don't believe - but I feel like atheists just like to say "lack a belief" because then they don't feel like they're holding an irrational belief in something science can't prove. But we all have beliefs that science can't prove, it's ok to not know something 100% and still believe it.

I mean sure atheists lack a belief, but from looking at history and science if they were to make an inference to the best explanation whats wrong with concluding "hmm I don't believe."

It's even more interesting when they equate a belief in god to a belief in Santa or the Easter bunny - but I'm willing to bet they don't just "lack a belief" in santa or the easter bunny but also do not believe they exist.

With regards to the FSM I can confidently say not only do I lack a belief in it I also do not believe it. Can science disprove him, no maybe not, but I think it's reasonable to conclude he probably doesn't exist therefore I do not believe in him.


Very well said. I think we're on the same page.
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#1662 Heretic

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:11 AM

Ha, oh boy. Anti-theism is the new insult to direct towards non-believers, eh? You're not just non-religious, your ANTI-religious. You know what I'm really wondering, why is that a bad thing? I will make no apologies for anti-theistic viewpoints. I see absolutely no benefit to theism in any way, shape, or form. I think, personally, that belief in God is silly (oh my, was that offensive?). Well, I do happen to feel that believing in God is childish. If you find that offensive, it's actually YOUR problem and not mine.To me, it is ridiculous.

Let me phrase this another way. If I, and J.R. and Sharpshooter, are anti-theistic, then believers in God are anti-science. See how that works? Believing in a supernatural, all-powerful God or Gods is anti-science in the same way that a lack of belief in the same God(s) is anti-theistic. You can easily be categorized as anti-anything. Are you liberal? Well then, how dare you be so anti-conservative! You should be more tolerant!

The logic is weak, gentlemen.


Close but no no cigar.

I believe in God. I am all for Science. So I guess I am a hybrid.
The point of the whole anti-theist thing is that just like there are "Christians" that bash people (God hates ____ signs" there are atheists that bash religious. There are atheists that are good people and there are Christians that are good people.
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#1663 Heretic

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:14 AM

I get where you're coming from, but I really don't think it's much of a stretch for atheists to conclude that there is no factual God(s) based on empirical evidence. For example, based on you argument, how can we conclude that unicorns never existed?! This is why the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. It's completely absurd, yet un-disprovable.


The FSM was a joke - the founder said so. So no, that can't be compared/used as an argument.
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#1664 Nevlach

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:38 AM

But that still doesn't seem to be any different from saying "I lack a belief that it exists". Not believing = lacking belief, not necessarily actively disbelieving, although they're not mutually exclusive. "I believe it doesn't exist", on the other hand, is a positive statement of belief, which seems to be more in line with what you've been talking about. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah I was saying it's ok to make a positive assertion and say "I do not believe it exists" which is one step further from just lacking a belief in a deity all together. I guess my wording was a little confusing.
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#1665 Remy

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:52 AM

Close but no no cigar.

I believe in God. I am all for Science. So I guess I am a hybrid.
The point of the whole anti-theist thing is that just like there are "Christians" that bash people (God hates ____ signs" there are atheists that bash religious. There are atheists that are good people and there are Christians that are good people.


This made me chuckle. There is no way you've ever met an atheist that's on par with the Westboro Baptist Church. No one is on par with their level of crazy.
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#1666 Nevlach

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:59 AM

This made me chuckle. There is no way you've ever met an atheist that's on par with the Westboro Baptist Church. No one is on par with their level of crazy.

http://www.salon.com...son_of_a_bigot/

This article is Son of a Bigot - the story given by Nate Phelps, son of Fred Phelps founder the WBC - what a horrible horrible man. Props to Nate for speaking out.
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#1667 J.R.

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:46 AM

It's even more interesting when they equate a belief in god to a belief in Santa or the Easter bunny - but I'm willing to bet they don't just "lack a belief" in santa or the easter bunny but also do not believe they exist.


The Easter Bunny I'll give you. But there's actually some funny (sad?) parallels with Santa and religious figures. One of which being I have little doubt that the general idea originated with a real person at some point in history. Santa brings gifts to children who behave and are "good". Jesus gave us the gift of eternal salvation if we're "good" etc.

Yet one is widely recognized as a cute fairy tale figure...the other is... Santa! HAHA Kidding! :P
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#1668 Nevlach

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:56 AM

The Easter Bunny I'll give you. But there's actually some funny (sad?) parallels with Santa and religious figures. One of which being I have little doubt that the general idea originated with a real person at some point in history. Santa brings gifts to children who behave and are "good". Jesus gave us the gift of eternal salvation if we're "good" etc.

Yet one is widely recognized as a cute fairy tale figure...the other is... Santa! HAHA Kidding! :P

Well he does "see you when you're sleeping, he knows when you awake" :D

Lumps of coal - fire and brimstone...yeah ok I'll agree :P
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#1669 Sharpshooter

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:31 AM

The FSM was a joke - the founder said so. So no, that can't be compared/used as an argument.


Then you obviously didn't get the punchline.

FSM = God, in that it is something else that was man-made, whose only evidence is what is evidenced by faulty logic and stories in a manner to help others make sense of the world they live in, but whose existence is unknowable because of the parameters set out, by the very people who create their own belief, for its characteristics and attributes, that one can argue for and against, without possibly bringing any absolute evidence, even if it's almost absolutely certain for or against its existence, thereby lending some illogical credence for its prescriptions on and for humanity.

Get it?

hardy har har

Edited by Sharpshooter, 28 September 2012 - 10:45 AM.

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#1670 J.R.

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:39 AM

Get it?


No. No he doesn't.
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#1671 gurn

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 11:13 AM

"Yet one is widely recognized as a cute fairy tale figure...the other is... Santa! HAHA Kidding! :P

Santa and Satan. Same letters,different order, Coincidence?
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#1672 J.R.

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 11:38 AM

"Yet one is widely recognized as a cute fairy tale figure...the other is... Santa! HAHA Kidding! :P

Santa and Satan. Same letters,different order, Coincidence?


Yes...?
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#1673 Sharpshooter

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:26 PM

Mormons Praying/Fasting To Help Romney's Campaign, Debate Performance


SALT LAKE CITY (RNS) A number of Mormons seem to think that fellow believer Mitt Romney, now slumping in the polls, needs a little divine intervention for his performance at the upcoming Oct. 3 presidential debate.

They've been circulating a request via email that sympathetic Latter-day Saints join them in forgoing food and water on Sunday in a collective effort to support the candidate.

"I am asking you to join me and my family ... by fasting and praying for Mitt Romney that he will be blessed in the debates, which will be held Oct. 3rd," says an email posted early Wednesday (Sept. 26) by The Student Review, an off-campus paper for Brigham Young University students. "I know that seems like such a small thing but I believe 'from small things, great things can come about.' "

The email went on: "I know that fasting and praying brings about miracles."

Others in the email chain have suggested putting Romney's name on the "temple prayer roll," which is typically reserved for those who are sick.

McKay Coppins, a political reporter for BuzzFeed, also reported the fasting effort, saying that "sources who have received it said it has reached Latter-day Saints in Utah, California, Nevada and Colorado at least."

When asked if the email could be a bogus attempt by someone hoping to embarrass the LDS Church, both Coppins and the Review editor said they are personally familiar with several of the email recipients, who are sincere in their desire to help the Republican nominee.

"The fast was apparently organized by a handful of individuals, not the church," LDS Church spokesman Scott Trotter said Wednesday. "The church is neutral in matters of party politics."


Ok, jokes aside about Mitt Romney and his chances of winning the election and all his idiocy.

The reason I bring this article into this thread, is to pursue the belief about prayers and miracles as another example of why and how religious people delude themselves into thinking that the supernatural can have an effect on the natural world.

There's no credibility that talking to an imaginary being that one believes is real, can produce any logical connective affect on outcomes such as elections.

Prayer is a learned behaviour, like making a wish when you blow out your birthday cake candles, or when you see a 'shooting star'....which by the way, just shows you how ignorant humans were and still are in thinking that what they see in the night sky is a star falling to earth....but that only furthers the point that we as human beings make things up to help us understand, or come to grips with, or make sense and order of that which we don't understand.....hence the creation of all the religions ever, including the ones that people find blanket comfort in now.

Religion is a woolen blanket folks...remove it because it's covering your 'eyes'.
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#1674 AbbyNucksFan

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:31 PM

but sharpshooter, I prayed that my sister would get a good rate on her mortgage, and HALLELUJAH, she did get a fantastic mortgage rate.. that PROVES that prayer works!

lol

Edited by AbbyNucksFan, 28 September 2012 - 12:32 PM.

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#1675 Heretic

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:32 PM

Ok, jokes aside about Mitt Romney and his chances of winning the election and all his idiocy.

The reason I bring this article into this thread, is to pursue the belief about prayers and miracles as another example of why and how religious people delude themselves into thinking that the supernatural can have an effect on the natural world.

There's no credibility that talking to an imaginary being that one believes is real, can produce any logical connective affect on outcomes such as elections.

Prayer is a learned behaviour, like making a wish when you blow out your birthday cake candles, or when you see a 'shooting star'....which by the way, just shows you how ignorant humans were and still are in thinking that what they see in the night sky is a star falling to earth....but that only furthers the point that we as human beings make things up to help us understand, or come to grips with, or make sense and order of that which we don't understand.....hence the creation of all the religions ever, including the ones that people find blanket comfort in now.

Religion is a woolen blanket folks...remove it because it's covering your 'eyes'.


Do you believe in attitude?

That is, positive and negative?

Energy? Positive and negative?

Basically the same thing.
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#1676 Heretic

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:33 PM

Then you obviously didn't get the punchline.

FSM = God, in that it is something else that was man-made, whose only evidence is what is evidenced by faulty logic and stories in a manner to help others make sense of the world they live in, but whose existence is unknowable because of the parameters set out, by the very people who create their own belief, for its characteristics and attributes, that one can argue for and against, without possibly bringing any absolute evidence, even if it's almost absolutely certain for or against its existence, thereby lending some illogical credence for its prescriptions on and for humanity.

Get it?

hardy har har


There's nothing to "get" - as I said, the "creator" of FSM has said it as a joke.

The "creator" of the Bible hasn't.

Do you get it?
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#1677 J.R.

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:35 PM

Do you believe in attitude?

That is, positive and negative?

Energy? Positive and negative?

Basically the same thing.


No it's not.
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#1678 J.R.

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:36 PM

There's nothing to "get" - as I said, the "creator" of FSM has said it as a joke.

The "creator" of the Bible hasn't.

Do you get it?


The "creator" of the Bible has REALLY bad comedic timing?
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#1679 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 01:06 PM

Day #4(?), Joke #2

A priest and a nun are on their way back home from a trip when their car breaks down. They are unable to get it fixed, so they decide to spend the night in a hotel. The only hotel in the town has only one room available.

Priest: Sister, I don't think the Lord would have a problem, under the circumstances, if we spent the night together in this one room. I'll sleep on the lounge and you have the bed.

Nun: I think that would be okay.

They prepare for bed and each one takes their agreed place in the room. Ten minutes later...

Nun: Father, I'm terribly cold.

Priest: Okay, I'll get you a blanket. (He does)

Ten minutes later...

Nun: Father, I'm still terribly cold.

Priest: Okay Sister, I'll get you another blanket. (He does)

Ten minutes later...

Nun: Father, I'm still terribly cold. I don't think the Lord would mind if we acted as man and wife just for this one night.

Priest: You're probably right...get up and get your own blanket.
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#1680 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 01:17 PM

Do you believe in attitude?

That is, positive and negative?

Energy? Positive and negative?

Basically the same thing.


How so?

Because, I would suggest that wishing and praying were moreso the same basic things, no?
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