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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#151 Nevlach

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:44 PM

Are they supporting their hate from their holy books and religious, or are they actually deriving their hate from them? I'd argue the latter.

And which other prominent reasons are you referring to?

And i'm not talking about mild sexism, I'm talking about calling someone a witch and then killing her. What other source aside from a religious one is there to commit that act?

I'd argue both. I think some religious folks read first and form their beliefs second, but I think even more are told what to believe and then read and make their holy books support their already preconceived notions. I think if, say Christians for example, really studied all their Bible says on homosexuality they would be surprised.

Other reasons? Fear, hate, it's "different", all the usual reasons people hate other groups of people.

Nazism, Communism...we have examples of secular regimes committing atrocious acts.

I'm not saying religion is a good thing. Only that it's not the only bad thing out there :P
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#152 Nevlach

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:47 PM

please tell me if there was a nonreligious group of people that took 50,000 unwed mothers ,closeted them ,and when their babies were born drugged them ,in some cases for months on end until they signed adoption papers .
this is what happened in my country , and what happened to my biological mother .

I'm sorry to hear that man. That's really rough.

Keep in mind though there are a lot of non religious groups who do crap like that all around the world. Crap like that happens quite a bit in African countries, especially when politics and the military are involved. You get people cutting off each others limbs, killing family members, raping women etc. The world can be a bad place because humanity is messed up. A lot of the time religion contributes to the messed-up-ness too and it's unfortunate for sure but it's not only religion.
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#153 Sharpshooter

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:51 PM

I'd argue both. I think some religious folks read first and form their beliefs second, but I think even more are told what to believe and then read and make their holy books support their already preconceived notions. I think if, say Christians for example, really studied all their Bible says on homosexuality they would be surprised.

Other reasons? Fear, hate, it's "different", all the usual reasons people hate other groups of people.

Nazism, Communism...we have examples of secular regimes committing atrocious acts.

I'm not saying religion is a good thing. Only that it's not the only bad thing out there :P


Well, for the sake of getting into the argument, I'd submit that it could certainly be both.....but then all that means is that not only is religious dogma a source of hate, it's also an amplifier of latent hate as well.

I'll concede, it's not the 'only' bad thing out there, but man oh man.....it's securely staked out its territory in the Land of Bad, where all the bad things are. :P

Edited by Sharpshooter, 21 August 2012 - 03:52 PM.

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#154 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:53 PM

You don't have to be a religious nut to be homophobic, sexist, or whatever. There are tons of people around the world who persecute these people for a variety of reasons. It just so happens that many religious fundamentalists also try and use their holy books to support their hate for these other groups and this is what garners the spot-light. It makes much more popular headlines to say "Kansas Church Calls Homo's Sinners."


Four Corners and the latest edition in the abuse scandal: still not learning the lessons?



This week's Australian Catholic news has been dominated by new accusations of cover up of abuse made on the ABC's Four Corners program on Monday night.

As the story has unfolded through the week, it keeps getting worse...

Covering up abuse and protecting alleged abusers

The basic line the show took is simple: the Church covered up abuse and continues to handle it badly.

This isn't old news stuff: one of the cases relates to an Australian Salesian priest whose Roman superiors are apparently still refusing to return him to Australia to deal with the accusations.

The other key accusations allege a criminal failure to report a crime to police on the part of some of Australia's more senior priests, including ACBC General Secretary Fr Brian Lucas.

The complicity of the courts and police

Four Corners' key allegation was that abuse by an Armidale priest was covered up such that when accused of abuse in court he was given a top-notch lawyer paid for by the Church and got away with it, even though the Church at the time in fact knew that he was guilty.

In reality, the story seems more complex, with several parties to blame.

A Magistrate, for example, dismissed, in 1988, the accusations out of hand at a committal hearing on the basis that the priest's word should be trusted over that of the accuser. Shouldn't that have been for a jury to assess?

Secondly, leaving aside the contested question of what Church authorities knew, the program blamed the Church for not looking for other supporting accusers - but surely given that this case reached the courts, that was actually a job for the police?

And in a subsequent case in 2004, where the priest took action against one of his victims for attempted extortion, the priest concerned apparently made admissions in court of abuse. So why wasn't he immediately charged, but instead granted an order by the court for continued suppression of his name?! And why weren't the three priests now accused of covering up his admissions back in 1992 investigated by police back then that the meeting was discussed in court?

The complicity of the secular justice system in permitting abuse to continue, covering it up, and letting off offenders either altogether, or with excessively light sentences (particularly when they happen to be members of the establishment) surely needs to be highlighted just as much as the role of the Church!

Cover up again?

The charge of cover up and protection of alleged abuser priests against the Church, though, clearly is a major issue.

The Salesian case remains unresolved, with no public response to the program being forthcoming from the order.

In relation to 'Fr F', the story claims that as far back as 1983, Church authorities were made aware of the accusations against him. Instead of action, he was shuffled between dioceses. The real heart of the matter though, relates to a meeting to consider accusations made against him in 1992.

Unfortunately, the Four Corner's team seem to have been more intent on attempting to entrap Cardinal Pell than actually getting to the bottom of the story. They asked him for his reaction to the claims on the phone from Rome - and he relied on an official record of the 1992 meeting between a panel of priests with the accused priest. Accordingly, he defended the priests in question from accusations of cover up (and continues to do so).

What the Four Corners team don't appear to have shown the Cardinal (they claim it was obtained after the show went to air) is an equally official looking letter written by one of the three priests involved to the Bishop of Armidale (in whose diocese the priest concerned was incardinated) which clearly states that the priest concerned did make admissions of abuse, thus contradicting the 'official' Sydney record. Fr F, moreover, subsequently stated in court (in 2004) that he had admitted to child abuse at the 1992 meeting.

And what makes this 1992 meeting look particularly smelly, on the face of it, is that as a result of the meeting, strong action was taken against the priest concerned. Two of the priests (Fathers Brian Lucas and John Usher) involved claim that this was because they were not satisfied with Fr F's credibility. The letter to the then bishop of Armidale by the third, Msgr Peters, provides a much stronger justification for Fr F's suspension (in 1992), though presumably it was his admissions in a second court case in 2004 that triggered his subsequent laicization (in 2005).

In the meantime, Bishop Kennedy of Armidale, perhaps the person Four Corners should have been talking to in the first place given that who has jurisdiction over the issue, has launched a full investigation into the matter. Both the Armidale and Sydney dioceses have indicated that they have contacted police and will co-operate with their investigations.

A Royal Commission?

Four Corners story added its weight to the ongoing calls for a Royal Commission.

I'm not terribly convinced - first, why pick just on the Catholic Church? It is surely clear by now that many institutions have been contaminated by the scourge of child abuse and other immorality, and handled them (and continue to handle them) just as badly.

Still, the Church's credibility would be greatly enhanced if it was actually seen to be a tad more transparent, a tad more pro-active in its response to these kinds of accusations.

The ACBC statement put out yesterday goes some way down this track with its admission that:

"Since the advent of Towards Healing in December 1996, the Australian Catholic Church has committed itself publicly to a more victim-centred response when evil of this nature became known.

In the years since, the Church’s new intentions have not always been in evidence."

Indeed . i do not know of any one group of people that have engaged in pedophillia in my society to the same extent as priests from catholic church .


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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

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#155 Nevlach

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:54 PM

Well, for the sake of getting into the argument, I'd submit that it could certainly be both.....but then all that means is that not only is religious dogma a source of hate, it's also an amplifier of latent hate as well.

I'll concede, it's not the 'only' bad thing out there, but man oh man.....it's securely staked out its territory in the Land of Bad, where all the bad are. :P

Well, unfortunately it is true that it can be used as both the source and amplifier for sure. I think it has the potential to make the world a better place, but not with all those fundies runnin around :P

What is the saying "we must change or we must die" I think that basically sums up how I feel about religion...
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#156 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:55 PM

No, but there were non religious groups that raped and killed many woman and men - but this isn't a contest...this isn't a look how bad that group was or how bad another one was - humanity has been bad to itself ever since we got here.

Again, I'm sorry what happened to your mother...


thank you heretic , i do believe you have compassion for others .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#157 Nevlach

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:00 PM

Four Corners and the latest edition in the abuse scandal: still not learning the lessons?


"Since the advent of Towards Healing in December 1996, the Australian Catholic Church has committed itself publicly to a more victim-centred response when evil of this nature became known.

In the years since, the Church’s new intentions have not always been in evidence."

Indeed . i do not know of any one group of people that have engaged in pedophillia in my society to the same extent as priests from catholic church .


I will admit this is not a topic I've looked into but I found this book by Jenkins to have some interesting stuff on that topic.

"While the total number of sexual abusers in the priesthood is much higher than those guilty of pedophilia, it still amounts to less than 2 percent — comparable to the rate among married men (Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests)."
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#158 CanuckClown

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:00 PM

I'm sorry to hear that man. That's really rough.

Keep in mind though there are a lot of non religious groups who do crap like that all around the world. Crap like that happens quite a bit in African countries, especially when politics and the military are involved. You get people cutting off each others limbs, killing family members, raping women etc. The world can be a bad place because humanity is messed up. A lot of the time religion contributes to the messed-up-ness too and it's unfortunate for sure but it's not only religion.


While this is true, two wrongs do not make a right.
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#159 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:02 PM

When will humanity realize that religion only divides man. My Faith in science may eventually discover the presence or absence of God. Until then I will stick to concrete scientific evidence and facts of chemistry, biology, physics etc , etc. Being raised in a traditional religious environment really showed me the ignorance and blind faith that people will rest on unsubstantiated claims of alleged accounts from books or drawings on caves from antiquity to be GOSPEL TRUTH ???

The one true truth of manufactured faiths(religions of the world) is the control over the worlds way of thinking. That is clearly evident. I ask these questions to followers of religious doctrines and ideals " Does your faith encourage rational cognitive thought ? " or are you willingly being spoon fed these constructs because you have no real opinions and are just going with the flow?

I myself cannot claim with any strength that God exists or not but I am willing to see both sides of the proverbial coin if clear and concise evidence can be put forth in the discussion. So it was written so it shall be done ? c'mon ? Have a little more desire to seek the truth out. Search for rational explanations and work your way from there. It is a life long process that may not be answered until passing from this physical plain.

Edited by vanfan73, 21 August 2012 - 04:09 PM.

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#160 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:09 PM

I'm sorry to hear that man. That's really rough.

Keep in mind though there are a lot of non religious groups who do crap like that all around the world. Crap like that happens quite a bit in African countries, especially when politics and the military are involved. You get people cutting off each others limbs, killing family members, raping women etc. The world can be a bad place because humanity is messed up. A lot of the time religion contributes to the messed-up-ness too and it's unfortunate for sure but it's not only religion.


thank you for your empathy , but as i am pointing out religion is so often used as a repressive instrument ,and i know all sorts of people commit all sorts of horrendous acts , but show me one group of australians that have committed the crimes the the catholic church has committed against it's own practitioners , and they were children .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#161 inane

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:25 PM

The topic of this thread makes no sense. Is it implying otherwordly sciences might?
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#162 Heretic

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:59 PM

Typical dancing around what was said to you in hopes that you don't have to acknowledge what you did.

Shouldn't you be more worried about your own reflection than mine?


Nope - I am at peace with myself.

I acknowledge what I do and I accept my inequities - I also admit when I'm wrong and I share my pain with others.

I feel a lot of pain within you - you need to let it go. It is okay to be wrong.
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#163 Super19

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:47 PM

The topic of this thread makes no sense. Is it implying otherwordly sciences might?

Right, my apologies. For clarity, you can just think of it as religion cannot be proven by 'science'.
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#164 CanuckClown

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:49 PM

Nope - I am at peace with myself.  

I acknowledge what I do and I accept my inequities - I also admit when I'm wrong and I share my pain with others.

I feel a lot of pain within you - you need to let it go.  It is okay to be wrong.


Is the patronizing nature of this post honestly lost on you? It's almost as if you feel the need to validate your own position through the critique/judgement of others.

Edited by CanuckClown, 21 August 2012 - 09:50 PM.

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#165 Sharpshooter

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:10 PM

Nope - I am at peace with myself.

I acknowledge what I do and I accept my inequities - I also admit when I'm wrong and I share my pain with others.

I feel a lot of pain within you - you need to let it go. It is okay to be wrong.


Nah, i doubt very much you're at peace. You haven't acknowledged much yet. Who cares if you accept yourself the way you are. You made yourself this way, so you better accept it. You only admit you're wrong when you've got nowhere else to turn, and then it's one of your famous "I'm an imperfect Christian" bull$h!t apology and song and dance whose best before date is a week, tops.

Yeah, I got a pain, a pain in my ass that generally travels to my head as a dull annoying ache. Guess who's the source of it currently?

Wrong about what? What have I been wrong about? Oh, there's that pain again.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 21 August 2012 - 11:56 PM.

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#166 dajusta

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:46 PM

Nah, i doubt very much you're at peace. You haven't acknowledged much yet. Who cares if you accept yourself the way you are. You made yourself this way, so you better accept it. You only admit you're wrong when you've got nowhere else to turn, and then it's one of your famous "I'm an imperfect Christian" bull$h!t apology and song and dance whose best before date is a week, tops.

Yeah, I got a pain. A pain in my ass that generally travels to my head as a dull annoying ache. Guess who's the source of it currently?

Wrong about what? What have I been wrong about? Oh, there's that pain again.


World leaders have the most control but the most stress.

Those who give up control actually relieve all of their worries.
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#167 CanuckClown

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:39 AM

World leaders have the most control but the most stress.

Those who give up control actually relieve all of their worries.


Perhaps I am misreading your quote, or taking it out of context: if so, I apologize. Otherwise, I find the implications of your post to be astounding.

Agency is what makes us human. The ability to use our cognitive abilities in order to reason our way through daily life. The level of our agency is what seperates us from all other animals. If I take what you state to its logical conclusion, you promote the dehuminization of all in the name of whatever it is you believe in.

Amazing.

Edited by CanuckClown, 22 August 2012 - 12:40 AM.

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#168 Wolfman Jack

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 04:13 AM

Whoa...relax. It was a bit of morning facetiousness. You do realize that I was quoting a movie don't you?? Which is why I used it again. I assumed you would have clued into that fact.

Had I known you were going to throw such an immature hissy-fit I wouldn't have made a movie reference.

Get a clue, and then afterwards perhaps a sense of humour.


Edit - And dirt-track racing sucks. ;)

You calling me immature? Oh the irony, you participate in and even create threads like this for the primary purpose of provoking Heretic for your own amusement, and he walks into it every time, :picard: that is so obvious there is no point in denying it, and I do have a sense of humour, it is just very dark, dry, and often very subtle, perhaps you just don't get it. B)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-T2rniQiAY

Edited by Norman Clegg, 22 August 2012 - 04:20 AM.

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
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#169 Heretic

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 07:20 AM

Is the patronizing nature of this post honestly lost on you? It's almost as if you feel the need to validate your own position through the critique/judgement of others.


I am welcome to suggestions on how you would deal with it.
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#170 inane

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 07:47 AM

And this is news how?
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#171 Nevlach

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:11 AM

Perhaps I am misreading your quote, or taking it out of context: if so, I apologize. Otherwise, I find the implications of your post to be astounding.

Agency is what makes us human. The ability to use our cognitive abilities in order to reason our way through daily life. The level of our agency is what seperates us from all other animals. If I take what you state to its logical conclusion, you promote the dehuminization of all in the name of whatever it is you believe in.

Amazing.

Too bad free will is an illusion though.
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#172 Sharpshooter

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:27 AM

You calling me immature? Oh the irony, you participate in and even create threads like this for the primary purpose of provoking Heretic for your own amusement, and he walks into it every time, :picard: that is so obvious there is no point in denying it, and I do have a sense of humour, it is just very dark, dry, and often very subtle, perhaps you just don't get it. B)


I'm saying you threw an emo hissy fit, like a teenage at her sweet 16 party who soiled her dress. I didn't create this thread and I didn't participate till more recently in the thread, and in doing so didn't even address the mindless meanderings offered by Heretic. He addressed me first, if you'll recall. I addressed another poster. But, I suppose those things don't fit your narrative, do they? You may have a sense of humour but you apparently left it in your other purse upon reading a movie quote, which led to your Veruca Salt-esque screed as a response. I get dry dark humour, half my family are English who oft tell their jokes with stiff upper lips and nary a half grin. If you want to redefine humourless into dry, dark and subtle, you may want to let the good people over at Merriam-Webster know.
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#173 Shift-4

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:42 AM

The topic of this thread makes no sense. Is it implying otherwordly sciences might?


No.

Clearly it means tribal sciences will get the job done. ::D
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#174 Tearloch7

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:28 AM

No.

Clearly it means tribal sciences will get the job done. ::D


That' B) s the "spirit", Shifty ..
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#175 wtpasc

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 10:47 AM

So a zookeeper walks into the ape enclosure and notices an oragutan reading two books; The Bible and On the Origin of Species. Perplexed, the zookeeper asks the ape why. The orangutan replies, "I am trying to figure out if I am my brother's keeper, or my keeper's brother!"
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#176 Sharpshooter

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:04 AM

So a zookeeper walks into the ape enclosure and notices an oragutan reading two books; The Bible and On the Origin of Species. Perplexed, the zookeeper asks the ape why. The orangutan replies, "I am trying to figure out if I am my brother's keeper, or my keeper's brother!"


;)
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#177 CanuckClown

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:30 AM

I am welcome to suggestions on how you would deal with it.


Deal with what? This is a forum discussion. One should be able to have a discussion without needing to psycho analyse others. My suggestion would be if you can't abide by this, then maybe you should stay away from internet forums.
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#178 Shift-4

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:32 AM

That' B) s the "spirit", Shifty ..


I just figured this thread should be blessed by my presence ::D
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Hockey is the only sport, the rest are just games.

#179 CanuckClown

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:38 AM

Too bad free will is an illusion though.


If free will was an illusion humanity would be no different than the beaver that builds the dam. We would mindlessly, or instinctively, go about our business without a personal thought. Of course, we both know this to be false. People use their cognitive abilities every waking minute of every day. It is true, people's decisions are "guided" by macro, or structural, conditions. It is within this context that the battle for agency should be fought. Alas, there are those who accept their fate; treating these structural conditions as innate and sanctioned by "G"od. Hence, religion is the opiate for the masses and should be rejected.

But as I alluded to in another post, the rise of Atheism has nothing to do with recapturing the masses agency. I would argue that consumption - Iphones, shiny cars, diesel jeans and so on - has replaced religion as our opiate. I digress.
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#180 Heretic

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:41 AM

Deal with what? This is a forum discussion. One should be able to have a discussion without needing to psycho analyse others. My suggestion would be if you can't abide by this, then maybe you should stay away from internet forums.


Deal with my pain.

So let me get this straight - you have 9 posts and have just joined CDC.
You analyse me and say I'm patronizing - then when I ask you how you would handle it, you say "One should be able to have a discussion without needing to psycho analyse others." Yeah...but...you just did that...

In other words...maybe you should take your own advice or at the very least get to see what is really going on here before chirping in...
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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