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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1861 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

The Bible is too edited and watered down. Esp. the New Testament. What's interesting about the Gospel According to Mary Magdalene is that it portrays the world as essentially unreal, and that humans are the bridge between the natural realm and the imaginal realm. (ie. We're in the Matrix and Jesus was like Neo, explaining his miracles.)

Its interesting because Mary was Jesus most-beloved disciple and that he confided in her many things in which all the others were not privy to.

Since then she's been labelled a prostitute and her gospel has been all but disregarded, but thinking about what she was blabbering about definitely makes you wonder about what state our world is really in, what is real, what is this imaginal realm, and do we even want to know.

Concordantly, this concept has inspired some recent spiritual-science fiction.

Ergo, Let's just hope this 'God' doesn't end up being as ultra-annoying as this guy:

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#1862 Remy

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:00 PM

LP, stupid mobile CDC.
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#1863 Heretic

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:29 PM

Not in my case. Just an appreciation for the common origins of everything and the vastness of infinity. You can feel connected to the universe without believing some malarkey about "purpose" or "design".


So your purpose is to go around and say your purpose is right and the purpose that everyone else believes they have is wrong?
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#1864 J.R.

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:51 PM

So your purpose is to go around and say your purpose is right and the purpose that everyone else believes they have is wrong?


Nope.
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"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

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#1865 Heretic

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:08 PM

Nope.


Then why do you? It's illogical if it's not your purpose.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#1866 J.R.

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

Then why do you? It's illogical if it's not your purpose.


How so?

Is your "purpose" to urinate and defecate?
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"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

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#1867 Drybone

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:58 PM

How so?

Is your "purpose" to urinate and defecate?


You cant pick and choose what 'truth' is just because you personally believe it. The claim to it stops at the end of your nose.

The height of ignorance is believing other peoples opinions are 'stupid' or 'wrong' . There is no right or wrong. You dont get to decide or critique what other peoples opinions are.
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#1868 Tearloch7

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:10 PM

You cant pick and choose what 'truth' is just because you personally believe it. The claim to it stops at the end of your nose.

The height of ignorance is believing other peoples opinions are 'stupid' or 'wrong' . There is no right or wrong. You dont get to decide or critique what other peoples opinions are.


I shall be sure to save this "quote", to be replayed as needed .. :emot-parrot:
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

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#1869 Pineapples

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:29 PM

Why would it make more sense, though? Are you sure you don't believe that because you want there to be purpose? It's an emotionally-appealing thought.


Do you think that everything just happened? That everything that has ever happened in the history of the universe meant nothing? If so, then there was no point in anything ever happening. Pretty empty and pointless.
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#1870 Pineapples

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:34 PM

Exactly. It's emotionally appealing. That's it.

Why the heck would "reason" behind any of this make "more sense"??!!

It's a happy coincidence that rain falls, wind blows and stars shine to support life on our puny planet. To assume they care about or even consider each other is silly. That's a simple case of projecting human emotion to naturally occurring conditions.


Happy coincidence? How you find that easier to believe than it happening with reason boggles me, but I could care less what you believe anyway.

My argument has always been that's there's no way to prove/disprove a creator. So why are you challenging my beliefs? I'm not forcing them down anyone's throat like some people..
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#1871 Nevlach

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

Exactly. It's emotionally appealing. That's it.

Why the heck would "reason" behind any of this make "more sense"??!!

It's a happy coincidence that rain falls, wind blows and stars shine to support life on our puny planet. To assume they care about or even consider each other is silly. That's a simple case of projecting human emotion to naturally occurring conditions.

That knife cuts both ways though JR. It's appealing to think there's no one to answer to and no consequences for anything and we are just here to live life exactly the way we want.
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#1872 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:54 PM

Do you think that everything just happened? That everything that has ever happened in the history of the universe meant nothing? If so, then there was no point in anything ever happening. Pretty empty and pointless.

I don't see any reason or evidence for an objective meaning for existence. It'd be nice if there was, but what I want has no bearing on what there actually is.

That knife cuts both ways though JR. It's appealing to think there's no one to answer to and no consequences for anything and we are just here to live life exactly the way we want.

Since when are there no consequences and no-one to answer to in life, god or not? I have to answer to myself and the people around me for any mistakes I make, and so does everyone else.

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 24 October 2012 - 09:56 PM.

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#1873 Nevlach

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:28 PM

Since when are there no consequences and no-one to answer to in life, god or not? I have to answer to myself and the people around me for any mistakes I make, and so does everyone else.

Believing there is no god to answer to for the decisions you make in life; no god to be judged by - has to be a freeing feeling and an appealing one no?

You could almost do anything and as long as you never got caught or perhaps justified it in your own mind (like "well he was being so annoying I pretty much had to kill him...") there would be no consequences. You are free to act as you please free of having to ultimately answer for it in the end as long as you don't get caught. You can't say for some people that's not appealing (the feeling of not being judged).
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#1874 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:53 PM

Believing there is no god to answer to for the decisions you make in life; no god to be judged by - has to be a freeing feeling and an appealing one no?

You could almost do anything and as long as you never got caught or perhaps justified it in your own mind (like "well he was being so annoying I pretty much had to kill him...") there would be no consequences. You are free to act as you please free of having to ultimately answer for it in the end as long as you don't get caught. You can't say for some people that's not appealing (the feeling of not being judged).

Maybe if you're a sociopath with no conscience. Thankfully, that's not the case for the vast majority of people. At least, I hope it's not the case. I know I couldn't live with murdering someone, even if there was no chance of being caught.

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 24 October 2012 - 10:53 PM.

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#1875 Nevlach

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:17 PM

Maybe if you're a sociopath with no conscience. Thankfully, that's not the case for the vast majority of people. At least, I hope it's not the case. I know I couldn't live with murdering someone, even if there was no chance of being caught.

Well I use an extreme example to show the point. But it could be anything from being selfish, cheating, lying, swearing, fighting, pornography to stealing, killing, committing adultery etc. For those who believe in God who holds them accountable they might "fight temptation" a bit more than say someone who could just lie and get away with it guilt free.

You have to admit it's appealing to think that you are only accountable to yourself and would never be judged at the end for your actions.
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#1876 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:46 PM

Well I use an extreme example to show the point. But it could be anything from being selfish, cheating, lying, swearing, fighting, pornography to stealing, killing, committing adultery etc. For those who believe in God who holds them accountable they might "fight temptation" a bit more than say someone who could just lie and get away with it guilt free.

You have to admit it's appealing to think that you are only accountable to yourself and would never be judged at the end for your actions.


That's why they threw in that whole afterlife thing.
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#1877 Nevlach

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:59 PM

That's why they threw in that whole afterlife thing.

Glad you agree with what I said :)
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#1878 Remy

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:35 AM

Do you think that everything just happened? That everything that has ever happened in the history of the universe meant nothing? If so, then there was no point in anything ever happening. Pretty empty and pointless.


This has to be one of the weakest arguments that the religious use. As an atheist, I can confirm that my life feels very far from meaningless. However, meaning is certainly subjective (even if I think that's part of what makes the whole thing beautiful, you're welcome to disagree).

Here's an analogy. Imagine someone that had never been exposed to English. The letters, the sounds, all of it, meaningless to this person. Pretty useless, right? Except that, for us, we have given it meaning. A lot of meaning. Words, in any language, can topple governments and build empires. And yet it's composed of symbols, each of which would indeed be meaningless if we didn't have agreed upon meanings for them. And, by the very act of ascribing meaning to those letters and sounds ... guess what? They gain actual, true meaning.

It's the same with us, as humans. What we choose to give meaning, has meaning. Like the basic sociological principal: "a situation defined as real, is real in its consequences".

I know what's important to me, but it sure as hell isn't some imaginary dude in the sky.
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#1879 Remy

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:39 AM

Well I use an extreme example to show the point. But it could be anything from being selfish, cheating, lying, swearing, fighting, pornography to stealing, killing, committing adultery etc. For those who believe in God who holds them accountable they might "fight temptation" a bit more than say someone who could just lie and get away with it guilt free.

You have to admit it's appealing to think that you are only accountable to yourself and would never be judged at the end for your actions.


Based on what I know of the Bible (many years of Catholic school), I can tell you with certainty that my own personal moral code holds me to a much higher standard than any Biblical God.

I could also make the argument that those religious people that believe they can pray away their sin actually have a much more compelling reason to misbehave than someone with no religious affiliation. As an atheist, I have to live with my guilt. As a Christian, I could just say a few Hail Mary's and consider myself absolved.

See how that type of weak logic works?
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#1880 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:44 AM

Well I use an extreme example to show the point. But it could be anything from being selfish, cheating, lying, swearing, fighting, pornography to stealing, killing, committing adultery etc. For those who believe in God who holds them accountable they might "fight temptation" a bit more than say someone who could just lie and get away with it guilt free.

You have to admit it's appealing to think that you are only accountable to yourself and would never be judged at the end for your actions.

Theists don't seem to have any problems being immoral at, despite the supposed increased accountability. In fact, atheists are committing crimes at a much lower rate than theists (for the record, I think this is just correlation, not causation). The concept of God is just an externalized version of the conscience, and not believing in God doesn't seem to relieve any moral guilt for most people. I know I didn't have a radical shift in accountability when I stopped believing in God. It just shifted from an external source to an internal one.
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#1881 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:46 AM

Believing there is no god to answer to for the decisions you make in life; no god to be judged by - has to be a freeing feeling and an appealing one no?

You could almost do anything and as long as you never got caught or perhaps justified it in your own mind (like "well he was being so annoying I pretty much had to kill him...") there would be no consequences. You are free to act as you please free of having to ultimately answer for it in the end as long as you don't get caught. You can't say for some people that's not appealing (the feeling of not being judged).

Uh, far more often than not, people have to answer for the things they do in real life already.. why wait for some imaginary deity to dish out repercussions?

Interesting logic that a person without a deity answers to no one and finds easier ways to murder a person, have you considered at all that religion provides an easy excuse for murder? Or how about a person being saved from their sins justifying continuing certain "sins" since they're already saved and aren't perfect? If there's any bouts of irrationality, which one likely would consider murdering a person to be.. my thoughts are this behaviour lies with the person who, first off, both justifies belief in magic god from the sky, and secondly, presumes those who don't believe are devoid of ethics or have no concept of reciprocity.
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#1882 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:02 AM

Based on what I know of the Bible (many years of Catholic school), I can tell you with certainty that my own personal moral code holds me to a much higher standard than any Biblical God.

I could also make the argument that those religious people that believe they can pray away their sin actually have a much more compelling reason to misbehave than someone with no religious affiliation. As an atheist, I have to live with my guilt. As a Christian, I could just say a few Hail Mary's and consider myself absolved.

See how that type of weak logic works?

Good so you are saying not believing in a god is appealing. Which is what I was saying.

Yeah sure I guess if by Christian you mean some Catholics. I'll add I've seen people in Rome leaving brothels and heading straight over to the church for confession. Weird logic haha.
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#1883 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:08 AM

Theists don't seem to have any problems being immoral at, despite the supposed increased accountability. In fact, atheists are committing crimes at a much lower rate than theists (for the record, I think this is just correlation, not causation). The concept of God is just an externalized version of the conscience, and not believing in God doesn't seem to relieve any moral guilt for most people. I know I didn't have a radical shift in accountability when I stopped believing in God. It just shifted from an external source to an internal one.

Yeah I think that a lot to do with the religious population on the planet being MUCH greater than the atheist population.

This isn't really to do with big moral issues but it's sort of interesting with regards to this discussion:
http://www.reginaldb...GOD_OCT0807.pdf
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#1884 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:10 AM

Uh, far more often than not, people have to answer for the things they do in real life already.. why wait for some imaginary deity to dish out repercussions?

Interesting logic that a person without a deity answers to no one and finds easier ways to murder a person, have you considered at all that religion provides an easy excuse for murder? Or how about a person being saved from their sins justifying continuing certain "sins" since they're already saved and aren't perfect? If there's any bouts of irrationality, which one likely would consider murdering a person to be.. my thoughts are this behaviour lies with the person who, first off, both justifies belief in magic god from the sky, and secondly, presumes those who don't believe are devoid of ethics or have no concept of reciprocity.

That's not what I said.

Edited by Nevlach, 25 October 2012 - 08:10 AM.

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#1885 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:22 AM

That's not what I said please don't twist my words to make it seem like I'm saying religious people have better morals than atheists.


You posted..

Believing there is no god to answer to for the decisions you make in life; no god to be judged by - has to be a freeing feeling and an appealing one no?

You could almost do anything and as long as you never got caught or perhaps justified it in your own mind (like "well he was being so annoying I pretty much had to kill him...") there would be no consequences. You are free to act as you please free of having to ultimately answer for it in the end as long as you don't get caught. You can't say for some people that's not appealing (the feeling of not being judged).


Translation: No god to answer to means justifying murdering someone for being annoying (or any act), acting as free [without rules] as you please.. so long as you don't get caught. This is verbatim what you're saying.

I doubt there was anything lost in translation, so I will reiterate:

Uh, far more often than not, people have to answer for the things they do in real life already.. why wait for some imaginary deity to dish out repercussions?

Interesting logic that a person without a deity answers to no one and finds easier ways to murder a person, have you considered at all that religion provides an easy excuse for murder? Or how about a person being saved from their sins justifying continuing certain "sins" since they're already saved and aren't perfect? If there's any bouts of irrationality, which one likely would consider murdering a person to be.. my thoughts are this behaviour lies with the person who, first off, both justifies belief in magic god from the sky, and secondly, presumes those who don't believe are devoid of ethics or have no concept of reciprocity.


.. of course, you could ignore that religion, not atheism, not agnosticism, have been the chief causes of murder, particularly spilling of blood in wars. As we continue to dissect the logic of religious beliefs in a creator, or creators, we find high amounts of irrationality, presuming the non-believers are devoid of ethics and can justify any heinous act, and far more "justifiable" cases of murder than any atheist or agnostic I've ever met can find.

Edited by zaibatsu, 25 October 2012 - 08:27 AM.

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#1886 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:30 AM

I'm not saying it is easier for atheists to murder anyone. I am saying it's appealing to believe that no matter what you do you are only accountable to yourself at the end of the day. As I said earlier I used murder as an extreme example - that if someone decided to murder someone and there is no god, if he gets away with it there's no consequences for him. This is not the same as saying if someone doesn't believe in god he is more likely to commit murder.
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#1887 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:39 AM

I'm not saying it is easier for atheists to murder anyone. I am saying it's appealing to believe that no matter what you do you are only accountable to yourself at the end of the day. As I said earlier I used murder as an extreme example - that if someone decided to murder someone and there is no god, if he gets away with it there's no consequences for him. This is not the same as saying if someone doesn't believe in god he is more likely to commit murder.

Killing someone for being annoying, while indeed extreme, is a very blatant assertion, despite your second attempt at changing your statement, that a person who is without a "god" justifies murder for ridiculously trivial things due to them not having any "god" to answer to.

Furthermore, since when are actions that involve another without consequence? I realise this is about a creator but the only person to answer to in your realm of existence a creator? Or do you not have to answer to a court/peers? Or your own conscience? It should be pretty easy to figure out no reasonable person, regardless of religious/non-religious beliefs, should be able to justify murdering someone simply out of annoyance. Whether or not someone has a "god" to answer to is an enormous red herring.
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#1888 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:49 AM

Yeah I think that a lot to do with the religious population on the planet being MUCH greater than the atheist population.

This isn't really to do with big moral issues but it's sort of interesting with regards to this discussion:
http://www.reginaldb...GOD_OCT0807.pdf

I'm talking on a per capita basis. In the US, for example, atheists make up ~10% of the population at large, but less than 1% of the prison population. In my opinion, this is likely due to the positive correlation between religiosity and lower levels of education and lower income, which are causative factors for criminality, and not because religion "turns people bad". It does debunk the idea that atheists have any moral deficit, though.

It appears that there's a disconnect between professed values and how they manifest themselves in reality:
http://moses.creight...005/2005-11.pdf
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#1889 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:51 AM

Killing someone for being annoying, while indeed extreme, is a very blatant assertion, despite your second attempt at changing your statement, that a person who is without a "god" justifies murder for ridiculously trivial things due to them not having any "god" to answer to.

Furthermore, since when are actions that involve another without consequence? I realise this is about a creator but the only person to answer to in your realm of existence a creator? Or do you not have to answer to a court/peers? Or your own conscience? It should be pretty easy to figure out no reasonable person, regardless of religious/non-religious beliefs, should be able to justify murdering someone simply out of annoyance. Whether or not someone has a "god" to answer to is an enormous red herring.

I don't know why you continue to try and make it seem like I'm saying things that I am not.

You are completely missing the point of what I am saying. I am not saying it is easier for an atheist to kill someone than it is for a christian. I am saying that there is an appeal to believing that at the end of your existence some god in the sky isn't going to judge you. Is that not an appealing thought?

And I never said actions are without consequence. I said if you don't get caught and you can justify an action in your own mind then there is really no consequences.
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#1890 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:53 AM

I'm talking on a per capita basis. In the US, for example, atheists make up ~10% of the population at large, but less than 1% of the prison population. In my opinion, this is likely due to the positive correlation between religiosity and lower levels of education and lower income, which are causative factors for criminality, and not because religion "turns people bad". It does debunk the idea that atheists have any moral deficit, though.

It appears that there's a disconnect between professed values and how they manifest themselves in reality:
http://moses.creight...005/2005-11.pdf

Also many of those in prison didn't become religious until after they went to prison.

But yeah man. Just to clarify I do not think religious people are more moral than atheists!
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