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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1891 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:08 AM

I think maybe I should open up a bit. What I've been saying, I've been speaking a little from personal experience. As someone who grew up in a pretty conservative religious home as I grew up and my beliefs changed I feel less guilt and more free in my life and so that's why I say both sides of the coin can be appealing.
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#1892 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:14 AM

Also many of those in prison didn't become religious until after they went to prison.

But yeah man. Just to clarify I do not think religious people are more moral than atheists!

Well, I don't think your original point has any merit, considering the evidence. If a lack of consequences for actions was a reality for atheists, we'd see an increased level of immorality. We don't. If a religious person wants to do something bad, they'll find a way to excuse it with their religion, regardless.
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#1893 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:20 AM

Well I disagree a little bit. Because first off there are consequences for our actions 99% of the time (provided we don't get caught of course) and secondly we all, regardless of religious belief, possess an innate sense of morality. So I don't think there would be increased immorality.

And yes I agree religious people will and often do use their religion to justify bizarre immoral actions. Guess that's part of being human.

Edited by Nevlach, 25 October 2012 - 09:22 AM.

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#1894 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:29 AM

You are completely missing the point of what I am saying. I am not saying it is easier for an atheist to kill someone than it is for a christian. I am saying that there is an appeal to believing that at the end of your existence some god in the sky isn't going to judge you. Is that not an appealing thought?

And I never said actions are without consequence. I said if you don't get caught and you can justify an action in your own mind then there is really no consequences.

To bold: What's the appeal?

To the last paragraph: Then this would have nothing to do with the discussion whatsoever, but I'm not going to believe for one second correlating consequence, or lack thereof, to a lack of "god", and the justification of certain behaviours, is suddenly merely about the excessively rudimentary "not getting caught = no consequences", when I know it's an attempt to denigrate non-believers into that caricature.

Edited by zaibatsu, 25 October 2012 - 09:29 AM.

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#1895 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:32 AM

Edit: double post

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 25 October 2012 - 09:34 AM.

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#1896 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:33 AM

Well I disagree a little bit. Because first off there are consequences for our actions 99% of the time (provided we don't get caught of course) and secondly we all, regardless of religious belief, possess an innate sense of morality. So I don't think there would be increased immorality.

And yes I agree religious people will and often do use their religion to justify bizarre immoral actions. Guess that's part of being human.

It's exactly the second point that I've been trying to argue :P

I think maybe I should open up a bit. What I've been saying, I've been speaking a little from personal experience. As someone who grew up in a pretty conservative religious home as I grew up and my beliefs changed I feel less guilt and more free in my life and so that's why I say both sides of the coin can be appealing.

I think you should have opened with this instead of hyperbolic examples about murder over annoyingness or referring to a lack of accountability. As someone who grew up in a liberal religious household, my experiences seem to be quite different from yours in this regard.
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#1897 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:37 AM

It's exactly the second point that I've been trying to argue :P


I think you should have opened with this instead of hyperbolic examples about murder over annoyingness or referring to a lack of accountability. As someone who grew up in a liberal religious household, my experiences seem to be quite different from yours in this regard.

Well what can I say, based on my own experiences I thought it was going to be an obvious point that non-belief has it's own certain appeal :P

I apologize for perhaps a bad example at the begining haha
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#1898 J.R.

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:29 AM

I think maybe I should open up a bit. What I've been saying, I've been speaking a little from personal experience. As someone who grew up in a pretty conservative religious home as I grew up and my beliefs changed I feel less guilt and more free in my life and so that's why I say both sides of the coin can be appealing.


Boy you really stepped in it Nev ;)

I won't add much on as a couple other posters have already handily noted your flawed thinking/example.

But what you're describing is sociopathic behaviour and is a separate issue from whether someone is religious or not. That's a mental health issue not a faith/non faith issue.

As has been pointed out, I DO answer for my actions...to myself, my family, my friends and my community. The freedom of atheism is to no longer believe in fairy tales and be fearful of the imaginary and IMO allows you to actually BETTER live by our common moral code as your no longer distracted by the imaginary and it's accompanying dogma and nonsense.


I'd like to ask you for examples of what you feel "less guilt" and "more free" from? My hunch is that perhaps it's because those weren't truly things to be guilty about in the first place ;)
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#1899 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:45 AM

Boy you really stepped in it Nev ;)

I won't add much on as a couple other posters have already handily noted your flawed thinking/example.

But what you're describing is sociopathic behaviour and is a separate issue from whether someone is religious or not. That's a mental health issue not a faith/non faith issue.

As has been pointed out, I DO answer for my actions...to myself, my family, my friends and my community. The freedom of atheism is to no longer believe in fairy tales and be fearful of the imaginary and IMO allows you to actually BETTER live by our common moral code as your no longer distracted by the imaginary and it's accompanying dogma and nonsense.


I'd like to ask you for examples of what you feel "less guilt" and "more free" from? My hunch is that perhaps it's because those weren't truly things to be guilty about in the first place ;)

Sorry JR it's not flawed but people are looking too much into it thinking I'm saying things like "it's easier for an atheist to murder someone" which is of course ridiculous and not even close to what I was saying.

Again I never said people don't answer for their actions. My point was at the end of your life you aren't judged for those actions by a god and that is what is appealing.

To what I first bolded: That's my whole point. Forget my stupid murder example. My point is atheism has an appeal as well and you just put in your own words why it does for you.

To what I second bolded: Exactly - religion has a way of making you feel guilty for things that you shouldn't.

I don't see how I "stepped in it" everyone seems to actually agree with my main point that there is a certain appeal to not have to worry about being judged.
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#1900 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:55 AM

I won't add much on as a couple other posters have already handily noted your flawed thinking/example.

Also I'm interested in what you think is exactly flawed about thinking that at the end of your life if there is no god you won't have to be judged for decisions you made in this life?
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#1901 J.R.

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:10 AM

Sorry JR it's not flawed but people are looking too much into it thinking I'm saying things like "it's easier for an atheist to murder someone" which is of course ridiculous and not even close to what I was saying.

Again I never said people don't answer for their actions. My point was at the end of your life you aren't judged for those actions by a god and that is what is appealing.

To what I first bolded: That's my whole point. Forget my stupid murder example. My point is atheism has an appeal as well and you just put in your own words why it does for you.

To what I second bolded: Exactly - religion has a way of making you feel guilty for things that you shouldn't.

I don't see how I "stepped in it" everyone seems to actually agree with my main point that there is a certain appeal to not have to worry about being judged.


And I'm telling you that holds no "appeal" because it's most likely NO ONE is judged by a supreme being at the end of their life. I'm judged IN this life, just like everyone else.

If they weren't things to be guilty of in the first place, how is that "appealing"? That's just common sense IMO.

I'm not arguing there is no appealing merits to atheism, there certainly is! I'm arguing that what you're saying they are is bass-ackwards. If you're only atheist so you can "get away with things", I think you're missing the point.
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#1902 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:20 AM

And I'm telling you that holds no "appeal" because it's most likely NO ONE is judged by a supreme being at the end of their life. I'm judged IN this life, just like everyone else.

If they weren't things to be guilty of in the first place, how is that "appealing"? That's just common sense IMO.

I'm not arguing there is no appealing merits to atheism, there certainly is! I'm arguing that what you're saying they are is bass-ackwards. If you're only atheist so you can "get away with things", I think you're missing the point.

I guess it's just how you choose to look at it. I disagree with what you say but I guess that'll have to be ok.

But yeah what you bolded is not what I was arguing....

Anywho... :P
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#1903 J.R.

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:32 AM

I guess it's just how you choose to look at it. I disagree with what you say but I guess that'll have to be ok.

But yeah what you bolded is not what I was arguing....

Anywho... :P

What are you arguing then? Because that's seemed to be the entire premise of your argument to me and a couple other people... :huh:
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#1904 Nevlach

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:39 AM

What are you arguing then? Because that's seemed to be the entire premise of your argument to me and a couple other people... :huh:

Simply put just that I find it appealing to not be worried about being judged at the end of my life (and that atheism can be appealing to some similarly to how religion can be appealing to some...not that appeal should make one a theist or atheist).

Unfortunately it turned out to seems like I was arguing atheists can do whatever they want. I guess it was just a poor or unclear example that started that off.
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#1905 J.R.

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:23 PM

Simply put just that I find it appealing to not be worried about being judged at the end of my life (and that atheism can be appealing to some similarly to how religion can be appealing to some...not that appeal should make one a theist or atheist).

Unfortunately it turned out to seems like I was arguing atheists can do whatever they want. I guess it was just a poor or unclear example that started that off.


I kind of think I get where you're coming from. (Though it still smells a bit of "get away with" :lol: ) Personally, I don't find the lack of judgment at the end of my life "appealing". Likely because I don't really even consider it in the first place.

It's like finding it appealing that Santa isn't really watching you. Kind of silly to think he was in the first place, so there's not much "appeal" in finding out he doesn't. It doesn't really factor in to my day to day decisions or morals.
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#1906 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:03 PM

Simply put just that I find it appealing to not be worried about being judged at the end of my life (and that atheism can be appealing to some similarly to how religion can be appealing to some...not that appeal should make one a theist or atheist).

Unfortunately it turned out to seems like I was arguing atheists can do whatever they want. I guess it was just a poor or unclear example that started that off.


If that were the only appealing aspect of religion they would be in a lot more trouble than they already are. Seeing your lost loved ones when you die seems like a pretty good perk. Fitting in with (not being ostracized by) a religious community would be another. And christmas, particularly christmas music just aint the same. What about that whole virgin thing those other guys have, bow chicka wow wow. Trust me when I tell you it would have been much easier to just keep believing. The truth is just too obvious to ignore.
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#1907 Pineapples

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:46 PM

I don't see any reason or evidence for an objective meaning for existence. It'd be nice if there was, but what I want has no bearing on what there actually is.


Just because you don't see a reason, doesn't mean that there isn't one. You are presenting your claim as a fact, when there is no evidence to support it. Your argument can go both ways.
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#1908 Pineapples

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:07 PM

This has to be one of the weakest arguments that the religious use. As an atheist, I can confirm that my life feels very far from meaningless. However, meaning is certainly subjective (even if I think that's part of what makes the whole thing beautiful, you're welcome to disagree).

Here's an analogy. Imagine someone that had never been exposed to English. The letters, the sounds, all of it, meaningless to this person. Pretty useless, right? Except that, for us, we have given it meaning. A lot of meaning. Words, in any language, can topple governments and build empires. And yet it's composed of symbols, each of which would indeed be meaningless if we didn't have agreed upon meanings for them. And, by the very act of ascribing meaning to those letters and sounds ... guess what? They gain actual, true meaning.

It's the same with us, as humans. What we choose to give meaning, has meaning. Like the basic sociological principal: "a situation defined as real, is real in its consequences".

I know what's important to me, but it sure as hell isn't some imaginary dude in the sky.


So you believe that everything just happened for no reason, yet there is reason to life because we say there is? All that means is a person giving their life a meaning because they believe that they didn't have one to begin with. Where does the meaning in people's lives come from then? Because clearly all of our ancestors' lives meant nothing, considering the only way to have meaning in life is while being alive. Since the end result is the same for everyone, what was the point in everything you did, it's not like you will remember any of it.

That's as if life was like that slender video game. No matter what you do, or how well you do, the result is the same. A bad ending... caught by slenderman.

Big Bang has no purpose if the end result is nothingness.
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#1909 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:10 PM

Just because you don't see a reason, doesn't mean that there isn't one. You are presenting your claim as a fact, when there is no evidence to support it. Your argument can go both ways.

I haven't claimed anything. You're the one who said there's a purpose for existence. I simply asked for your justification and you haven't been able to back up your claim with anything other than saying that "it makes sense".
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#1910 Pineapples

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:18 PM

I haven't claimed anything. You're the one who said there's a purpose for existence. I simply asked for your justification and you haven't been able to back up your claim with anything other than saying that "it makes sense".


When you say it would be nice for there to be a meaning to existence, you're making a claim for that to be true.

And I say it makes sense for there to be meaning to life. That's my reasoning for believing it. I never said it was true, or that I'm right. If someone challenges my beliefs, I will explain why I believe it.

I don't know any of the answers, and neither does anyone else, which has been my argument the entire time.
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#1911 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:27 PM

When you say it would be nice for there to be a meaning to existence, you're making a claim for that to be true.

And I say it makes sense for there to be meaning to life. That's my reasoning for believing it. I never said it was true, or that I'm right. If someone challenges my beliefs, I will explain why I believe it.

I don't know any of the answers, and neither does anyone else, which has been my argument the entire time.

I'm making a claim for what to be true? :huh:

But you never explained why it "made sense", aside from wishful thinking and appeals to emotion. At least be honest and admit that you believe it because you want it to be true. Common sense has been proven to be a failure at describing the universe on so many levels, anyways. Stuff like general relativity and quantum mechanics go completely contrary to common sense, yet the weight of evidence supports them

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 25 October 2012 - 11:36 PM.

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#1912 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:29 PM

So you're saying we're not really here...? :unsure:

:P


We are only here because we think we are here. Without thought there is nothing. So technically we came from something or somewhere that someone had initially thought of :frantic: or it is all just an elaborate dream and we are just in the matrix :frantic:
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#1913 Tearloch7

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:34 PM

We are only here because we think we are here. Without thought there is nothing. So technically we came from something or somewhere that someone had initially thought of :frantic: or it is all just an elaborate dream and we are just in the matrix :frantic:


Songwriters: MORRISON, VAN
We were born before the wind
Also younger than the sun
Ere the bonnie boat was won as we sailed into the mystic
Hark, now hear the sailors cry
Smell the sea and feel the sky
Let your soul and spirit fly into the mystic

And when that fog horn blows I will be coming home
And when that fog horn blows I want to hear it
I don't have to fear it
I want to rock your gypsy soul
Just like way back in the days of old
Then magnificently we will float into the mystic
And when that fog horn blows you know I will be coming home
And when that fog horn whistle blows I got to hear it
I don't have to fear it
I want to rock your gypsy soul
Just like way back in the days of old
And together we will float into the mystic
Come on girl...


Listen to this three times without breathing, and you will "be there" .

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#1914 Pineapples

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:55 PM

I'm making a claim for what to be true? :huh:

But you never explained why it "made sense", aside from wishful thinking and appeals to emotion. At least be honest and admit that you believe it because you want it to be true. Common sense has been proven to be a failure at describing the universe on so many levels, anyways. Stuff like general relativity and quantum mechanics go completely contrary to common sense, yet the weight of evidence supports them


The claim of there being no meaning to life. At least, that's what you said in your one post.

I've explained why I believe what I believe in other posts. For example:

So you believe that everything just happened for no reason, yet there is reason to life because we say there is? All that means is a person giving their life a meaning because they believe that they didn't have one to begin with. Where does the meaning in people's lives come from then? Because clearly all of our ancestors' lives meant nothing, considering the only way to have meaning in life is while being alive. Since the end result is the same for everyone, what was the point in everything you did, it's not like you will remember any of it.

That's as if life was like that slender video game. No matter what you do, or how well you do, the result is the same. A bad ending... caught by slenderman.

Big Bang has no purpose if the end result is nothingness.


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#1915 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:18 AM

The claim of there being no meaning to life. At least, that's what you said in your one post.

I've explained why I believe what I believe in other posts. For example:

Where did I say that?

I can't answer for the poster you were replying to, but people can make their own subjective reasons for living just fine if they so wish. They're called subjective for a reason. Why would subjective purpose not exist if something is finite? That just does not follow. Does a charity fundraiser not have purpose because it doesn't last forever? Does a bomb not have purpose because it's destroyed in being used?

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 26 October 2012 - 12:19 AM.

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#1916 Nevlach

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:59 AM

Everyone has to admit it is something like a miracle that concepts like reason and purpose can even exist in a universe that was mindless, unguided, without reason or purpose. If you think about it long enough I'm pretty sure your mind will explode.
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#1917 J.R.

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:15 AM

So you believe that everything just happened for no reason, yet there is reason to life because we say there is? All that means is a person giving their life a meaning because they believe that they didn't have one to begin with. Where does the meaning in people's lives come from then? Because clearly all of our ancestors' lives meant nothing, considering the only way to have meaning in life is while being alive. Since the end result is the same for everyone, what was the point in everything you did, it's not like you will remember any of it.

That's as if life was like that slender video game. No matter what you do, or how well you do, the result is the same. A bad ending... caught by slenderman.

Big Bang has no purpose if the end result is nothingness.


Our ancestors lives meant things to them and the people they loved. We wouldn't exist if they hadn't created us. They also gained knowledge which has been passed on and added to. All part of evolution really. Why does there need to be more than that? Our purpose is to live and try and pass on our genetic material and give that material it's best fighting chance to do the same.

I try to be the best person I can to, in some small part, "make the world a better place" (for my offspring). The whole "be the change you wish to see" theory. I try to experience different places, cultures, food etc and love my family and friends to the fullest because I know I and they are all temporary, so it's best to enjoy them while we can. But everything else is really secondary to the genetic material thing. We amuse ourselves with other things because we have evolved brains that enjoy stimulation at the root of it. We work so that we can afford things that attract a mate and provide food, shelter etc for them and our offspring.

Why do you need a magic man in the sky to make something "more" of that?
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#1918 Pineapples

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:01 PM

Where did I say that?

I can't answer for the poster you were replying to, but people can make their own subjective reasons for living just fine if they so wish. They're called subjective for a reason. Why would subjective purpose not exist if something is finite? That just does not follow. Does a charity fundraiser not have purpose because it doesn't last forever? Does a bomb not have purpose because it's destroyed in being used?


I don't see any reason or evidence for an objective meaning for existence. It'd be nice if there was, but what I want has no bearing on what there actually is.


People can and will subjective reasons all they want, but it's the objective reason that I'm referring too.
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#1919 Pineapples

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:07 PM

Our ancestors lives meant things to them and the people they loved. We wouldn't exist if they hadn't created us. They also gained knowledge which has been passed on and added to. All part of evolution really. Why does there need to be more than that? Our purpose is to live and try and pass on our genetic material and give that material it's best fighting chance to do the same.

I try to be the best person I can to, in some small part, "make the world a better place" (for my offspring). The whole "be the change you wish to see" theory. I try to experience different places, cultures, food etc and love my family and friends to the fullest because I know I and they are all temporary, so it's best to enjoy them while we can. But everything else is really secondary to the genetic material thing. We amuse ourselves with other things because we have evolved brains that enjoy stimulation at the root of it. We work so that we can afford things that attract a mate and provide food, shelter etc for them and our offspring.

Why do you need a magic man in the sky to make something "more" of that?


So that it lasts more than 80 or so years. Living our lives to the fullest is great while we're alive, but if we can't remember it, we wouldn't know how great it was. It would be no different than never being born.
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#1920 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:57 PM

People can and will subjective reasons all they want, but it's the objective reason that I'm referring too.

So me saying that your claim has no basis is the evidence means that I'm making a positive claim? No, I'm just saying your claim is very weak.

The post you quoted was referring to subjective reasons.
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