Jai604 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 But it doesn't matter where your beliefs come from.. a person is responsible for their actions regardless. Bob and Jane both murder one person. Bob was religious and Jane was atheist. What difference does it make? Before you can be outraged at people born into religion, you'd have to prove that 100% of religion is bad. Since you can't (or since I'm confident that most of Christianity is good), your outraged isn't justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 not if those parents are telling them to believe something that they do not want to believe in , been there . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 It depends why they murdered that person. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Jane murders someone for their wallet, because she's hungry or he wants drugs. What is her motivation for doing so? Atheism? No, it's surely not her nonbelief in god that causes her to kill someone. She's doing it because she has no money, is most likely homeless, and very hungry. She's doing it to survive. Let's then say, for the sake of argument, that Bob straps on a bunch of C4, walks into an embassy with a trenchcoat on, and blows himself up. What's his motivation for doing so? The promise of however many virgins in heaven? Because the people he is killing are "infidels"? See, that's the difference. I've never claimed that religion is 100% bad. Nor will I, because it simply isn't true. Like I stated earlier, there are lots of things you could say in support of religion. Something doesn't have to be 100% bad for it to be bad enough to be dangerous, however. What I'm questioning, is are the dangers greater than the benefits? And are those benefits unique to religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jai604 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Cool bro, I think we getting somewhere. Here's what I'l have to say about that - when you are a child is it reasonable to listen to your parents? Should a child need evidence to listen to his/her parents? Is it completely sound to trust your parents? I think so. You'd probably now ask, is it irresponsible on the parent's behalf to teach religion to a child, based on the fact there is a lack of credible evidence? Here is where I disagree with you. There is sufficient evidence of a maker, a supreme God, an omnipotent being. That's for another discussion though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jai604 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Hmm religion teaches values - extremists teach hate. Are there benefits to religion? I think so. Are there dangers? Yes. This is turning into a suffering discussion.. why did God allow suffering? Why doesn't God just rid the world of all suffering? The answer is this - if we really believe in freedom and free will, we have to endure the possibility of suffering. I concede 100% that religion can breed bad things. But what's the alternative? Abolish freedom of worship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 That's what I'm getting at. A child isn't capable of knowing whether or not the information given to them by his/her parents is good. That much is clear. There are bad parents of all races, belief systems, cultures, what-have-you. My outrage is at the indoctrination of fear, guilt, shame into a child's developing psyche. My outrage at the very real-world applications of theology upon children when their foreskins are cut off, of their clitoris' are mutilated. My outrage is at children growing up hating a group of people for no other reason than the fact that they believe in a different god. People are already killing each other due to our differences. Do we really need to have different gods too to kill each other over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Well i'm sorry about that - though I have to reinforce the point.. I think it's wise to listen to your parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 But isn't believing in god allowing yourself to be subjugated to his will? Do you not become a "slave" of god's will? You don't truly have free will then, do you? I don't mean that insultingly, it is an honest question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 do not get me wrong they are good , kind itelligent people until it come's to their christian faith . and it never ceases to amaze me that seemingly reasonable, logical people throw that all out the door when it comes to their faith . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jai604 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Well don't be outraged. They are similarly outraged at you for not cutting your foreskin and not mutilating your daughter's clitoris at birth. It's a matter of perspective. You're outraged because you think you're better than they are. How did you reach this conclusion? What in your belief system makes you better? To 3rd world countries, they think you are extremely insensitive by wasting water. 3rd world countries would die to have as much running water as we do. What makes you any better? What justifies your outrage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I don't think I'm better, but surely you cannot believe that mutilating a child's genitals is a good thing? Perspective has its limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jai604 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I really don't claim to be better, and I sure hope I don't give off that impression. I really am just trying to discuss whether or not religion is good for people. And surely you are right. There are many churches that do very good things. Many religions do teach extremely important values, to love one's neighbour, to feed the hungry, to help the poor. But, what I really want to ask, is why is religion necessary for that? Why must one believe in a supernatural supervisor in order to teach those things? I'm not religious, but I believe in all those values. I have a good sense of morality, and desire to help my fellow human beings. I just wonder if we as human beings are not able to be good without religion? I like to think we are capable. Does the fact that religion claims morality comes from god mean that we are all born evil then? That we are somehow a flawed species, completely lacking in morals or goodness until filled with god's morality? How then, are nonbelievers able to be good, and do good things? Your church might not preach this, but supposedly non0believers go to hell. So if I lead a great life, helping the poor, feedinf the hungry, doing great altruistic work, but merely don't believe in god, does that make me worthy of going to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhas Hand Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Well believe me when it's completely sane to believe God exists. Sure it flabbergasts you, but maybe you haven't considered something your parents have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I really don't claim to be better, and I sure hope I don't give off that impression. I really am just trying to discuss whether or not religion is good for people. And surely you are right. There are many churches that do very good things. Many religions do teach extremely important values, to love one's neighbour, to feed the hungry, to help the poor. But, what I really want to ask, is why is religion necessary for that? Why must one believe in a supernatural supervisor in order to teach those things? I'm not religious, but I believe in all those values. I have a good sense of morality, and desire to help my fellow human beings. I just wonder if we as human beings are not able to be good without religion? I like to think we are capable. Does the fact that religion claims morality comes from god mean that we are all born evil then? That we are somehow a flawed species, completely lacking in morals or goodness until filled with god's morality? How then, are nonbelievers able to be good, and do good things? Your church might not preach this, but supposedly non0believers go to hell. So if I lead a great life, helping the poor, feedinf the hungry, doing great altruistic work, but merely don't believe in god, does that make me worthy of going to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 ONLY if one accepts Jesus as any more the son of God than they are! .. the Christian tenets that state that it is your faith, and not your works and actions, that make you a "true" Christian tells it all to me .. so, do what you will .. if you are truly repentant and maintain your "faith", all will be forgiven and you will be welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven .. oh wait .. we ran out of room a long time ago so we will place you on a waiting list .. here, you can wait in Purgatory with all the Canuck fans waiting on a Cup win .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Light Racicot Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 The world would be better off without religion? Debatable (as we have never seen a world without religion) but it probably couldn't be any worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share Posted September 7, 2012 I need to sleep, but I really think this post is worth responding to. Is religion really required to tell us what is right? Depends. Nowadays, you can go to your local kindergarten class and they can help you understand right and wrong (to some degree). Don't take our current society morality for granted. It only takes a couple of beers for someone to show their true bite. In a few years, perhaps after another economic crash, people might change their morality. It's fortunate that society is "good".. but that can all change very fast. I think corporate America is actually very corrupt. But hey, that's another topic.. is society getting better or worse. My church does preach that non-believers go to hell. Actually I am the pastor of the church. And I wish to share you this story that I share with the members of my church: When I was young, I was dropped off at church by a family friend who was a non-believer. When I was about to exit the vehicle, she asked me "hey, can't nonbelievers who do good go to heaven?" I was so young at the time, I couldn't really answer the question. She said very vehemently, "so I'm a non-christian, so I'm not good?" These questions really haunted me and I had no clear cut answer. I soon realize that being Christian and following Christ does not make you a perfect person. Nor does it make your actions more golden. Believing in Christ is all about accepting this universal truth - that we are flawed No matter how hard we try, or how much "good" we do in the world, we will never overcome the nature of that which is human.. We have all fallen short of God's standard of "good". So what is the Gospel exactly? The good news is the fact that Jesus has come to take humanity's sin, and to bear it, to die with it, and to defeat it. When one person accepts Jesus, they are made righteous through worship, not by moral action. I think back to the moment of my family friend who dropped me off at church.. I wish I could now answer her properly. If she asked me "So can't nonbelieving good people go to heaven?" I would respond yes they can... it's too bad nobody on this planet is "good" since we have all fallen short of God's definition of good. I hope you can follow me on this entire post. I strongly believe the biggest criticism of Christianity is this misunderstanding. The teachings of Jesus doesn't make you automatically righteous.. actually it is the genuine worship of Jesus deems you righteous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 The most peaceful countries in the world tend to be the ones that are the least religious. New Zealand, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Canada etc. Honestly, its not at all surprising when you think about it. Religion is primarily a divisive force. Theres a lot of "If youre not with us, youre against us" rhetoric. Its basically ingrained. Every Theist branch has their own version of god, who in turn prefers a specific type of person who abides by a specific code and obeys a certain set of rules. There are 30000 denominations in Christianity alone. In Theism, division is pretty much inherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 What's there to argue with. Religion enables people to do bat-sh** crazy things? Agree. The world would be better off without religion? Debatable (as we have never seen a world without religion) but it probably couldn't be any worse. At least people would use reason instead of a 2000 year old book to figure out what is right and wrong. I think it's obvious that religion does do a lot of good for the world as well as bad. It's really hard to say for this one. An example that comes to mind, I don't know if you've read The Better Angels of our Nature by Steven Pinker but he pretty shows that the news tends to focus on the bad and we get this misconception that the world is getting worse and more bad, but in reality it's actually getting better (more moral, less crime etc) but the news is reporting more bad things than ever before. Similarly with religion, the crazy people, and evil things done in the name of religion get a lot more press than the good. Religious moderates? I don't think they have to be enablers for the extremists. I think they might be able to make a change from the inside (say with issues like homosexuality and promote acceptance and tolerance). It might even work better than having atheists ridicule their beliefs. In fact the ridicule is probably doing more damage than good and making religious people even more convicted in say their beliefs on homosexuality (perhaps they feel persecuted and that God will reward them). So I didn't ignore your post, I thought it was interesting, I just didn't think you said anything I would argue with except for maybe your view (or Harris's view I should say) on religious moderates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Here is where I disagree with you. There is sufficient evidence of a maker, a supreme God, an omnipotent being. That's for another discussion though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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