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Christian Doctor Chemically Castrated Boy As Part Of 'Gay Cure'.


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#61 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:24 AM

So what is your definition of a true chrsitian? All one has to do is say "I'm Christian." Then it doesn't matter what they do?

I'm a true agnostic. :P


You know Jesus? That guy.

In reality, it's an unattainable standard and using it excludes, I'm pretty sure, you and every other living human. I'm pretty sure most usages have resorted to using the term "Christian" for people who say they follow Jesus, regardless of to what degree.

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My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#62 Nevlach

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:29 AM

You know Jesus? That guy.

In reality, it's an unattainable standard and using it excludes, I'm pretty sure, you and every other living human. I'm pretty sure most usages have resorted to using the term "Christian" for people who say they follow Jesus, regardless of to what degree.

Yeah obviously people who say they are Christian don't always live up to those standards but the point isn't to be perfect but at least try and follow them. LIke I said they can say "We are Christians" but actions speak louder than words right?

I should say I don't doubt this guy is a "christian" in that he believes in Jesus but I do doubt that he is following the principles of love and tolerance based on his actions.

Edited by Nevlach, 06 September 2012 - 08:30 AM.

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#63 Nevlach

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:32 AM

Also I think I should just reiterate my point. Not all Christians are hateful and crazy just because some (perhaps even a lot) are.
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#64 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:35 AM

Yeah obviously people who say they are Christian don't always live up to those standards but the point isn't to be perfect but at least try and follow them. LIke I said they can say "We are Christians" but actions speak louder than words right?


Do you see many Christians giving up their possessions to the poor and going to spread the word? No? It's really not "don't always live up to those standards", it's more accurate to say "never live up to those standards".

So how far can one stray from the paragon of a True Christian™ before they aren't considered one? What if their actions have their heart in the right place? Surely you don't suppose every good intention resolves itself favorably.

Your point is right, not all Christians are hateful and crazy, but nobody suggested as much. You just suggested they weren't Christians.

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My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#65 Jägermeister

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:37 AM

Their are crazy Christians just as there are crazies in about every group of people.
More often than not the crazies will become more publicized than your average member of the group.
To assume all (or even most) Christians are crazy hate mongers, is the same as assuming all Muslims are extremists, despite the fact only a very small fraction of them actually fit that description.
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#66 hockeyfan87

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:41 AM

Their are crazy Christians just as there are crazies in about every group of people.
More often than not the crazies will become more publicized than your average member of the group.
To assume all (or even most) Christians are crazy hate mongers, is the same as assuming all Muslims are extremists, despite the fact only a very small fraction of them actually fit that description.


The funny thing is that atheists could not possibly fathom the fact that they also have crazies in their community. It's a reason why I don't identify myself as an atheist anymore and would probably now say I'm a pragmatic agnostic. The worst atheists are just as intolerant as the some of the worst christians. Personally I can't understand spending my life being intolerant and ridiculing the lives of others which is something a segment of both the atheist and christian populations like to enjoy.

#67 Nevlach

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:44 AM

Do you see many Christians giving up their possessions to the poor and going to spread the word? No? It's really not "don't always live up to those standards", it's more accurate to say "never live up to those standards".

So how far can one stray from the paragon of a True Christian™ before they aren't considered one? What if their actions have their heart in the right place? Surely you don't suppose every good intention resolves itself favorably.

Your point is right, not all Christians are hateful and crazy, but nobody suggested as much. You just suggested they weren't Christians.

Yeah you're right I was hasty with my words and was wrong to say this guy isn't a Christian. What I should have (and what I originally meant to) argued was that not all Christians are crazy and discriminatory like this sect.

Though I do maintain that there should be a difference between what groups we label as christian and true christian based upon their actions. No one is going to live up to Christ's standards (that's the post, he's the perfect example) but when one group calls out certain people, like homosexuals, or is doing harmful things to them we should ask "is that something someone who supposedly believes in a message of love and tolerance would actually do?"
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#68 Nevlach

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:44 AM

The funny thing is that atheists could not possibly fathom the fact that they also have crazies in their community. It's a reason why I don't identify myself as an atheist anymore and would probably now say I'm a pragmatic agnostic. The worst atheists are just as intolerant as the some of the worst christians. Personally I can't understand spending my life being intolerant and ridiculing the lives of others which is something a segment of both the atheist and christian populations like to enjoy.

Exactly.
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#69 Tearloch7

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:48 AM

The funny thing is that atheists could not possibly fathom the fact that they also have crazies in their community. It's a reason why I don't identify myself as an atheist anymore and would probably now say I'm a pragmatic agnostic. The worst atheists are just as intolerant as the some of the worst christians. Personally I can't understand spending my life being intolerant and ridiculing the lives of others which is something a segment of both the atheist and christian populations like to enjoy.


Agree 100% .. well said ..

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#70 theminister

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:48 AM

Their are crazy CDCers just as there are crazies in about every group of people.
More often than not the crazies will become more publicized than your average member of the group.
To assume all (or even most) CDCers are crazy hate mongers, is the same as assuming all Canucks fans are extremists, despite the fact only a very small fraction of them actually fit that description.

Of course, all Leafs fans are.:P

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#71 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:53 AM

Yeah you're right I was hasty with my words and was wrong to say this guy isn't a Christian. What I should have (and what I originally meant to) argued was that not all Christians are crazy and discriminatory like this sect.

Though I do maintain that there should be a difference between what groups we label as christian and true christian based upon their actions. No one is going to live up to Christ's standards (that's the post, he's the perfect example) but when one group calls out certain people, like homosexuals, or is doing harmful things to them we should ask "is that something someone who supposedly believes in a message of love and tolerance would actually do?"


You will continue to run into the same problem of no true Scotsman as long as you try to separate the Christians who aren't hateful bigots from those whose actions dictate they are. Why? Because if you listen to those degenerates, you will notice they think they are doing good. The most insane, hateful Christian you can imagine, will just as likely think he's doing good with his actions. That's the thing, we're human and can be convinced of anything, and some are convinced they hateful acts are for good cause.

That's like saying you maintain there should be a difference between what groups we label as Greeks based upon their actions.

There is a difference, it's in their actions.

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#72 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:02 AM

The funny thing is that atheists could not possibly fathom the fact that they also have crazies in their community. It's a reason why I don't identify myself as an atheist anymore and would probably now say I'm a pragmatic agnostic. The worst atheists are just as intolerant as the some of the worst christians. Personally I can't understand spending my life being intolerant and ridiculing the lives of others which is something a segment of both the atheist and christian populations like to enjoy.

Exactly.

Agree 100% .. well said ..


What? Really? That post is 100% wrong is 150% bull, what part do you guys agree with?

Is it the part where he paints atheists as having more in common than lack of belief in a god(s)? Is it the part where he decides to call himself something else based on the previous misconception? Or is it where he equates the worst atheists to worst theists? Or Is it where he suggests that atheists are intolerant and ridiculing? Do you agree with his newly found "pragmatic agnosticism"? Or the suggestion he's no longer an atheist because he does not wish to be?

Edited by Satan's Evil Twin, 06 September 2012 - 09:02 AM.

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#73 Nevlach

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:06 AM

You will continue to run into the same problem of no true Scotsman as long as you try to separate the Christians who aren't hateful bigots from those whose actions dictate they are. Why? Because if you listen to those degenerates, you will notice they think they are doing good. The most insane, hateful Christian you can imagine, will just as likely think he's doing good with his actions. That's the thing, we're human and can be convinced of anything, and some are convinced they hateful acts are for good cause.

That's like saying you maintain there should be a difference between what groups we label as Greeks based upon their actions.

There is a difference, it's in their actions.

Yeah I think we are pretty close to agreement. But just because someone believes they are doing good doesn't mean they are (obviously you agree with that). Similarly someone who believes they are following Christ's teachings aren't necessarily following them, and even if they think they are we should be able to distinguish them from those who are just by using reason.

The difference between Greeks or Scotsman is that they were born into that specific nationality their actions don't make or break them as Greeks or Scots. Being Christian isn't supposed to just be believing Christ is God or whatever they believe, but actually trying to follow his examples and so their actions do matter...as far as being a factor for distinguishing certain Christian groups.
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#74 hockeyfan87

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:08 AM

What? Really? That post is 100% wrong is 150% bull, what part do you guys agree with?

Is it the part where he paints atheists as having more in common than lack of belief in a god(s)? Is it the part where he decides to call himself something else based on the previous misconception? Or is it where he equates the worst atheists to worst theists? Or Is it where he suggests that atheists are intolerant and ridiculing? Do you agree with his newly found "pragmatic agnosticism"? Or the suggestion he's no longer an atheist because he does not wish to be?



So when Stalin (an atheist) attacked and destroyed the churches in the USSR would you say he wasn't a true atheist? I mean come on are you a hypocrite? What he did constituted genocide according to international law so you can put him right up there with theists who have also committed genocide in the name of religion. Or does the true Scotsman fallacy only apply when it is suitable for your own personal views.

I don't believe in god but I'd rather not call myself an atheist for practical reasons. I have had many religious friends throughout the course of my life and I know what grief they have been given by know it alls like you.

Edited by hockeyfan87, 06 September 2012 - 09:13 AM.


#75 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:10 AM

Yeah I think we are pretty close to agreement. But just because someone believes they are doing good doesn't mean they are (obviously you agree with that). Similarly someone who believes they are following Christ's teachings aren't necessarily following them, and even if they think they are we should be able to distinguish them from those who are just by using reason.

The difference between Greeks or Scotsman is that they were born into that specific nationality their actions don't make or break them as Greeks or Scots. Being Christian isn't supposed to just be believing Christ is God or whatever they believe, but actually trying to follow his examples and so their actions do matter...as far as being a factor for distinguishing certain Christian groups.


Doesn't god see into the hearts of all men and even those whose harts are pure and actions are misguided are Christians? Ignorance shouldn't be underestimated when it comes to religious actions.

I think you just solved the no true Scotsman fallacy!

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My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#76 Nevlach

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:13 AM

What? Really? That post is 100% wrong is 150% bull, what part do you guys agree with?

Is it the part where he paints atheists as having more in common than lack of belief in a god(s)? Is it the part where he decides to call himself something else based on the previous misconception? Or is it where he equates the worst atheists to worst theists? Or Is it where he suggests that atheists are intolerant and ridiculing? Do you agree with his newly found "pragmatic agnosticism"? Or the suggestion he's no longer an atheist because he does not wish to be?

I agreed that both groups have crazy people and both groups can be intolerant.
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#77 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:15 AM

So when Stalin (an atheist) attacked and destroyed the churches in the Soviet USSR would you say he wasn't a true atheist? I mean come on are you a hypocrite? What he did constituted genocide according to international law so you can put him right up there with theists who have also committed genocide in the name of religion. Or does the true Scotsman fallacy only apply when it is suitable for your own personal views.

I don't believe in god but I'd rather not call myself an atheist for practical reasons. I have had many religious friends throughout the course of my life and I know what grief they have been given by know it alls like you.


No you're right, Stalin is a pretty good example. There are a handful in history. My thinking was limited to modern day and regular people.

That said, your narrative that atheists have anything more in common than... atheism is false. The same argument could be made about people wearing cardigans. Are you going to stop wearing a cardigan because someone may have worn one and did something bad?

If you don't believe in god, it matters not what you call yourself, you are by definition an atheist. That's the point. Now you can call yourself the Holy Pony of Cacadoo and you'll still be an atheist, just as you're still a human.

Grief caused by the likes of me? Gee, they must take internet as serious business. Forgive my lack of empathy.

Edited by Satan's Evil Twin, 06 September 2012 - 09:16 AM.

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#78 Nevlach

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:15 AM

Doesn't god see into the hearts of all men and even those whose harts are pure and actions are misguided are Christians? Ignorance shouldn't be underestimated when it comes to religious actions.

I think you just solved the no true Scotsman fallacy!

How can someone have a pure heart and castrate children because they are homophobic? Maybe they do I don't know. Is that how god judges...if there even is a god?

What can I say I'm a genius :P
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#79 hockeyfan87

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:16 AM

Whatever

Edited by hockeyfan87, 06 September 2012 - 09:16 AM.


#80 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:18 AM

I agreed that both groups have crazy people and both groups can be intolerant.


But atheists aren't a group. Atheists for America are a group.

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My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#81 Nevlach

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:21 AM

But atheists aren't a group. Atheists for America are a group.

Atheists aren't a group? Tell that to the 1.5 million atheists on reddit atheism.
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#82 Sharpshooter

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:56 AM

So when Stalin (an atheist) attacked and destroyed the churches in the USSR would you say he wasn't a true atheist? I mean come on are you a hypocrite? What he did constituted genocide according to international law so you can put him right up there with theists who have also committed genocide in the name of religion. Or does the true Scotsman fallacy only apply when it is suitable for your own personal views.

I don't believe in god but I'd rather not call myself an atheist for practical reasons. I have had many religious friends throughout the course of my life and I know what grief they have been given by know it alls like you.



Are you actually suggesting that Stalin destroyed those churches in the name of Atheism?? That argument has been dismantled numerous times....as have the ones using Pol Pot or Hitler.

And I assure you, the grief that Christians receive in words is most assuredly outweighed by the grief the larger non-believers and believers of other religions have received from 'Christians' historically and currently, in deeds.

And you can call yourself whatever you, but 'practically' you're an Atheist. You should probably look up what 'practically' means.

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#83 hockeyfan87

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:13 AM

Are you actually suggesting that Stalin destroyed those churches in the name of Atheism?? That argument has been dismantled numerous times....as have the ones using Pol Pot or Hitler.

And I assure you, the grief that Christians receive in words is most assuredly outweighed by the grief the larger non-believers and believers of other religions have received from 'Christians' historically and currently, in deeds.

And you can call yourself whatever you, but 'practically' you're an Atheist. You should probably look up what 'practically' means.


It's hard to type on my phone but no that's not what I meant or said in regards to Stalin.

#84 hockeyfan87

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:18 AM

And you can call yourself whatever you, but 'practically' you're an Atheist. You should probably look up what 'practically' means.


The fact that I don't identify myself as an atheist has nothing to do with what I actually believe. It's because I don't want to be associated with other atheists who like to mock people's beliefs (even if I disagree with them), which seems to be the growing stigma that atheism has attracted. I'm a fan of Ricky Gervais but celebrities like him who spout incoherent garbage about how stupid religion is seem to think that they represent everyone who doesn't believe in God.

Edited by hockeyfan87, 06 September 2012 - 10:19 AM.


#85 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:43 AM

It's like i've seen this discussion before... (You're not adding to it. Leave the thread. Yada-yada-yada.) It is redundant. Sorry.


Here's something else to consider: 'Curing homosexuality' doesn't have to involve religion at all. If indeed there is a 'gay gene', then the cure to homosexuality is purely scientific. (Obviously, since religion has not cured homosexuality so far. Praying the gays out? Please.)

To me, the attempt to use religion to cure homosexuality only serves to discount religion as anything meaningful. Not that being an atheist is awesome, since it is relatively empty, but religion is clearly not the answer to all of life's problems.

What religion should do is modernize. They should step up to the plate and fully accept science. Then they can use it to effectively promote their beliefs in the modern society that we live in.

ie. What's better than believing in God? Playing God. If science can be used to determine which fetuses are born gay or not, then why not use it? I think genetic alterations will play a significant role in human development in the very near future. Certainly there are sectors of our society that is already planning on taking advantage of it. I suspect 'the elite' already are. (And we all know what 'the elite' is directly tied to.) And of course genetic alterations could 'cure' many things, not just homosexuality. It can cure all forms of genetic disease. It can also make us more advanced. It's probably the key to human evolution going forward. And it's coming, whether we like it or not. So... Accept, or lose.


Anyway, what's being disregarded in the op is the fact the boy totally agreed to the procedure. He did it by choice. Yeah, you can call it brainwashing. But i call it desperation. He, like millions others before and after him, desperately did not want to be outside the norm. You certainly don't need religion to have that common desire.
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#86 Aladeen

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:00 AM

And of course genetic alterations could 'cure' many things, not just homosexuality. It can cure all forms of genetic disease.


This section of your post is ridiculous. What a horrendously ignorant statement. To believe that someone's sexual orientation is a disease is just idiotic. I guess then we need a cure for hair and eye colors too. What about height and skin color? I know a group of people in the past who would have loved all of these cures you speak of. Then we could all be pasty white, 6'4" with blonde hair and blue eyes and speaking German. Good luck building your genetically heterosexual master race there Adolf.
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#87 Sharpshooter

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:02 AM

It's hard to type on my phone but no that's not what I meant or said in regards to Stalin.

The fact that I don't identify myself as an atheist has nothing to do with what I actually believe. It's because I don't want to be associated with other atheists who like to mock people's beliefs (even if I disagree with them), which seems to be the growing stigma that atheism has attracted. I'm a fan of Ricky Gervais but celebrities like him who spout incoherent garbage about how stupid religion is seem to think that they represent everyone who doesn't believe in God.


Actually it seems you were implying that Stalin acted in the name of Atheism by comparatively arguing that theists aren't the only ones who do something in the name of something, and in their case religion, and in Stalin's case, atheism.

You can say that's not what you meant, and that's fine, but that's the only conclusion I could logically see from your comparative example.

Regardless, this doctor acted in the name of religion. Of that, there's no question. Whether that makes him a 'true' Christian or not, is arguable. The fact that he identifies himself as a Christian isn't. Do I believe he performed this method of chemical castration on a young gay christian boy because Jesus told him to? No, i don't. Do I believe that he performed this because like all believers they're able to apply their dogmas as they see fit, like those who justify their actions through means such as nationalism, or ethnocentrism? Yes. As practically dangerous as those latter things are, so too is the former, and has been for just as long.

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#88 hockeyfan87

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:04 AM

It's like i've seen this discussion before... (You're not adding to it. Leave the thread. Yada-yada-yada.) It is redundant. Sorry.


Here's something else to consider: 'Curing homosexuality' doesn't have to involve religion at all. If indeed there is a 'gay gene', then the cure to homosexuality is purely scientific. (Obviously, since religion has not cured homosexuality so far. Praying the gays out? Please.)

To me, the attempt to use religion to cure homosexuality only serves to discount religion as anything meaningful. Not that being an atheist is awesome, since it is relatively empty, but religion is clearly not the answer to all of life's problems.

What religion should do is modernize. They should step up to the plate and fully accept science. Then they can use it to effectively promote their beliefs in the modern society that we live in.

ie. What's better than believing in God? Playing God. If science can be used to determine which fetuses are born gay or not, then why not use it? I think genetic alterations will play a significant role in human development in the very near future. Certainly there are sectors of our society that is already planning on taking advantage of it. I suspect 'the elite' already are. (And we all know what 'the elite' is directly tied to.) And of course genetic alterations could 'cure' many things, not just homosexuality. It can cure all forms of genetic disease. It can also make us more advanced. It's probably the key to human evolution going forward. And it's coming, whether we like it or not. So... Accept, or lose.


Anyway, what's being disregarded in the op is the fact the boy totally agreed to the procedure. He did it by choice. Yeah, you can call it brainwashing. But i call it desperation. He, like millions others before and after him, desperately did not want to be outside the norm. You certainly don't need religion to have that common desire.



There are many progressive theists who support gay marriage and also believe in the value of science. They can't control whether some others who identify as the same denomination do these insane irrational things. Some of the greatest scientists of history believed in God. Albert Einstein for instance.

As for this particular case I don't think it matters that the "patient" agreed to the procedure. There doesn't need to be a demand for a cure to treat being homosexual and it's unfortunate that some view it as an ailment that has to be cured. The guy abused his position of trust and as far as I'm concerned should be sent to jail for something. He misrepresented the facts, he was reckless, and he gambled with the health of the "patient".

The reason why religion doesn't embrace science is quite obvious. To preserve the importance of religion in a person's life they need the masses to continue to be educated and accept what they are being told. As the west has become more urban, industrial and the average levels of education have increased there has been a corresponding decrease in people who identify themselves as affiliated with an organized church.

All that being said I'm content to respect the beliefs of people who believe in God just like how I would expect them to respect my beliefs in areas where they disagree. Let nature take it's course and science show us the facts.

#89 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:14 AM

This section of your post is ridiculous. What a horrendously ignorant statement. To believe that someone's sexual orientation is a disease is just idiotic. I guess then we need a cure for hair and eye colors too. What about height and skin color? I know a group of people in the past who would have loved all of these cures you speak of. Then we could all be pasty white, 6'4" with blonde hair and blue eyes and speaking German. Good luck building your genetically heterosexual master race there Adolf.

You took it out of context, invalidating your concern about me. However, there are some who would believe in all that you are concerned about here. If those people are in power then that's a much bigger concern.
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#90 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:32 AM

As for this particular case I don't think it matters that the "patient" agreed to the procedure. There doesn't need to be a demand for a cure to treat being homosexual and it's unfortunate that some view it as an ailment that has to be cured. The guy abused his position of trust and as far as I'm concerned should be sent to jail for something. He misrepresented the facts, he was reckless, and he gambled with the health of the "patient".

It's unfortunate, yes, that we live in a society that dictates to us what is normal and what is not. However, the will of the patient was still there. What's missing from the op is the patient saying, "Y'mean there's a cure? Hell yes!" Although that's assumed. Just like how religion is solely to blame here is assumed. I'd blame 'the dream to be normal' more than religious influence in this case. Religion might define 'normal' more strictly, however. Meh. Everyone is guilty.
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