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#151 dajusta

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:48 AM

I don't think I'm better, but surely you cannot believe that mutilating a child's genitals is a good thing?

Perspective has its limits.


Hmm we enter a discussion on "what is good".. and here we cannot proceed. Why? Because you are an atheist. You have no relative standard of good. We can discuss anyway, but it would be somewhat fruitless.

What is good? I think good is what God has defined as good. Shalom, which is peace and relationship between God, humanity and creation.

Mutilation of the body is neutral. If it's the pain you consider to be "bad" then I would argue that pain is sometimes good. Teaches us lessons in life, and helps build our character. Pain helps us appreciates pleasure.

Maybe unwanted pain is "bad"? Well how is that really judged? Aren't we all immunized at birth? Aren't we all given some sort of pain? But wait! we are immunized to fight against disease! Well let me tell you, the mutilation of children at birth is also a cultural understanding of immunizing against spiritual forces. Now, of course you don't believe in it, but you see where I'm going with this. It all has a purpose.

I can't really go out on a limb and say cultural rituals are bad.. But I can say for certain, if there is brokenness in the home, if there is physical and sexual abuse... then those things are bad.
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#152 Jai604

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:48 AM

I really don't claim to be better, and I sure hope I don't give off that impression.

I really am just trying to discuss whether or not religion is good for people. And surely you are right. There are many churches that do very good things. Many religions do teach extremely important values, to love one's neighbour, to feed the hungry, to help the poor.

But, what I really want to ask, is why is religion necessary for that? Why must one believe in a supernatural supervisor in order to teach those things?

I'm not religious, but I believe in all those values. I have a good sense of morality, and desire to help my fellow human beings.

I just wonder if we as human beings are not able to be good without religion? I like to think we are capable. Does the fact that religion claims morality comes from god mean that we are all born evil then? That we are somehow a flawed species, completely lacking in morals or goodness until filled with god's morality? How then, are nonbelievers able to be good, and do good things?

Your church might not preach this, but supposedly non0believers go to hell. So if I lead a great life, helping the poor, feedinf the hungry, doing great altruistic work, but merely don't believe in god, does that make me worthy of going to hell?
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#153 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:58 AM

Well believe me when it's completely sane to believe God exists. Sure it flabbergasts you, but maybe you haven't considered something your parents have.

i am willing to bet i have spent more time in the last 50 odd years studying and contemplating this than you have , and i have considered evey fact there is ,and have come to the conclusion that there is no evidence either way .
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#154 dajusta

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:05 AM

I really don't claim to be better, and I sure hope I don't give off that impression.

I really am just trying to discuss whether or not religion is good for people. And surely you are right. There are many churches that do very good things. Many religions do teach extremely important values, to love one's neighbour, to feed the hungry, to help the poor.

But, what I really want to ask, is why is religion necessary for that? Why must one believe in a supernatural supervisor in order to teach those things?

I'm not religious, but I believe in all those values. I have a good sense of morality, and desire to help my fellow human beings.

I just wonder if we as human beings are not able to be good without religion? I like to think we are capable. Does the fact that religion claims morality comes from god mean that we are all born evil then? That we are somehow a flawed species, completely lacking in morals or goodness until filled with god's morality? How then, are nonbelievers able to be good, and do good things?

Your church might not preach this, but supposedly non0believers go to hell. So if I lead a great life, helping the poor, feedinf the hungry, doing great altruistic work, but merely don't believe in god, does that make me worthy of going to hell?


I need to sleep, but I really think this post is worth responding to.

Is religion really required to tell us what is right? Depends. Nowadays, you can go to your local kindergarten class and they can help you understand right and wrong (to some degree). Don't take our current society morality for granted. It only takes a couple of beers for someone to show their true bite. In a few years, perhaps after another economic crash, people might change their morality. It's fortunate that society is "good".. but that can all change very fast. I think corporate America is actually very corrupt. But hey, that's another topic.. is society getting better or worse​.

My church does preach that non-believers go to hell. Actually I am the pastor of the church. And I wish to share you this story that I share with the members of my church:

When I was young, I was dropped off at church by a family friend who was a non-believer. When I was about to exit the vehicle, she asked me "hey, can't nonbelievers who do good go to heaven?" I was so young at the time, I couldn't really answer the question.

She said very vehemently, "so I'm a non-christian, so I'm not good?"

These questions really haunted me and I had no clear cut answer.

I soon realize that being Christian and following Christ does not make you a perfect person. Nor does it make your actions more golden. Believing in Christ is all about accepting this universal truth - that we are flawed

No matter how hard we try, or how much "good" we do in the world, we will never overcome the nature of that which is human.. We have all fallen short of God's standard of "good".

So what is the Gospel exactly? The good news is the fact that Jesus has come to take humanity's sin, and to bear it, to die with it, and to defeat it. When one person accepts Jesus, they are made righteous through worship, not by moral action.

I think back to the moment of my family friend who dropped me off at church.. I wish I could now answer her properly. If she asked me "So can't nonbelieving good people go to heaven?" I would respond yes they can... it's too bad nobody on this planet is "good" since we have all fallen short of God's definition of good.

I hope you can follow me on this entire post. I strongly believe the biggest criticism of Christianity is this misunderstanding. The teachings of Jesus doesn't make you automatically righteous.. actually it is the genuine worship of Jesus deems you righteous.

Edited by dajusta, 07 September 2012 - 03:07 AM.

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#155 Tearloch7

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:43 AM

ONLY if one accepts Jesus as any more the son of God than they are! .. the Christian tenets that state that it is your faith, and not your works and actions, that make you a "true" Christian tells it all to me .. so, do what you will .. if you are truly repentant and maintain your "faith", all will be forgiven and you will be welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven .. oh wait .. we ran out of room a long time ago so we will place you on a waiting list .. here, you can wait in Purgatory with all the Canuck fans waiting on a Cup win .. :rolleyes:
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#156 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:05 PM

The world would be better off without religion? Debatable (as we have never seen a world without religion) but it probably couldn't be any worse.


The most peaceful countries in the world tend to be the ones that are the least religious.

New Zealand, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Canada etc.

Honestly, its not at all surprising when you think about it. Religion is primarily a divisive force. Theres a lot of "If youre not with us, youre against us" rhetoric.

Its basically ingrained. Every Theist branch has their own version of god, who in turn prefers a specific type of person who abides by a specific code and obeys a certain set of rules. There are 30000 denominations in Christianity alone. In Theism, division is pretty much inherent.

Edited by Red Light Racicot, 07 September 2012 - 01:11 PM.

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#157 Sharpshooter

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:37 PM

I need to sleep, but I really think this post is worth responding to.

Is religion really required to tell us what is right? Depends. Nowadays, you can go to your local kindergarten class and they can help you understand right and wrong (to some degree). Don't take our current society morality for granted. It only takes a couple of beers for someone to show their true bite. In a few years, perhaps after another economic crash, people might change their morality. It's fortunate that society is "good".. but that can all change very fast. I think corporate America is actually very corrupt. But hey, that's another topic.. is society getting better or worse​.

My church does preach that non-believers go to hell. Actually I am the pastor of the church. And I wish to share you this story that I share with the members of my church:

When I was young, I was dropped off at church by a family friend who was a non-believer. When I was about to exit the vehicle, she asked me "hey, can't nonbelievers who do good go to heaven?" I was so young at the time, I couldn't really answer the question.

She said very vehemently, "so I'm a non-christian, so I'm not good?"

These questions really haunted me and I had no clear cut answer.

I soon realize that being Christian and following Christ does not make you a perfect person. Nor does it make your actions more golden. Believing in Christ is all about accepting this universal truth - that we are flawed

No matter how hard we try, or how much "good" we do in the world, we will never overcome the nature of that which is human.. We have all fallen short of God's standard of "good".

So what is the Gospel exactly? The good news is the fact that Jesus has come to take humanity's sin, and to bear it, to die with it, and to defeat it. When one person accepts Jesus, they are made righteous through worship, not by moral action.

I think back to the moment of my family friend who dropped me off at church.. I wish I could now answer her properly. If she asked me "So can't nonbelieving good people go to heaven?" I would respond yes they can... it's too bad nobody on this planet is "good" since we have all fallen short of God's definition of good.

I hope you can follow me on this entire post. I strongly believe the biggest criticism of Christianity is this misunderstanding. The teachings of Jesus doesn't make you automatically righteous.. actually it is the genuine worship of Jesus deems you righteous.



The bolded part just shows the level of brainwashing that's occurred for a person to actually believe that nonsense.

Christianity wants you to believe that you were born sick and then they order you to be cured.

[from Letters to a Young Contrarian (2001)]

I have been called arrogant myself in my time, and hope to earn the title again, but to claim that I am privy to the secrets of the universe and its creator — that's beyond my conceit. I therefore have no choice but to find something suspect even in the humblest believer. Even the most humane and compassionate of the monotheisms and polytheisms are complicit in this quiet and irrational authoritarianism: they proclaim us, in Fulke Greville's unforgettable line, "Created sick — Commanded to be well." And there are totalitarian insinuations to back this up if its appeal should fail. Christians, for example, declare me redeemed by a human sacrifice that occurred thousands of years before I was born. I didn't ask for it, and would willingly have foregone it, but there it is: I'm claimed and saved whether I wish it or not. And if I refuse the unsolicited gift? Well, there are still some vague mutterings about an eternity of torment for my ingratitude. That is somewhat worse than a Big Brother state, because there could be no hope of its eventually passing away.

In any case, I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me; we rightly sneer at the barbaric societies that practice this unpleasantness in its literal form. There's no moral value in the vicarious gesture anyway. As Thomas Paine pointed out, you may if you wish take on a another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility. So the whole apparatus of absolution and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral, while the concept of revealed truth degrades the concept of free intelligence by purportedly relieving us of the hard task of working out the ethical principles for ourselves.

You can see the same immorality or amorality in the Christian view of guilt and punishment. There are only two texts, both of them extreme and mutually contradictory. The Old Testament injunction is the one to exact an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth (it occurs in a passage of perfectly demented detail about the exact rules governing mutual ox-goring; you should look it up in its context.The second is from the Gospels and says that only those without sin should cast the first stone. The first is a moral basis for capital punishment and other barbarities; the second is so relativistic and "nonjudgmental" that it would not allow the prosecution of Charles Manson. Our few notions of justice have had to evolve despite these absurd codes of ultra vindictiveness and ultracompassion.

Judaism has some advantages over Christianity in that, for example, it does not proselytise — except among Jews — and it does not make the cretinous mistake of saying that the Messiah has already made his appearance. However, along with Islam and Christianity, it does insist that some turgid and contradictory and sometimes evil and mad texts, obviously written by fairly unexceptional humans, are in fact the word of god. I think that the indispensable condition of any intellectual liberty is the realisation that there is no such thing.

(on a celestial dictator)

[Religious belief] is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you - who must, indeed, subject you - to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life - I say, of your life - before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can f***ing die and leave North Korea!


If you want to be enslaved not just for this lifetime, but for all eternity, then you're a masochist, and the one enslaving you to worship him and glorify him is tyrannical sadist.

It means you really ARE sick.....but I don't command you to be cured....because it's a mental affliction of your or perhaps of someone else's making....but it's certainly an affliction that you choose to not seek treatment for, because someone or perhaps even yourself convinced you that you're aren't sick, that you're fine and everything is fine as long as you kneel, and obey, and be subserviant, and pause your cricital thinking faculties, and believe against evidence and in the face of no evidence, and that you give worship to something that will only reward you for doing so and punish you in the most horrendous way possible for not.

That's sickening indeed.

Talk about a case of celestial/existential Stockholm syndrome.
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#158 Nevlach

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:05 PM

The most peaceful countries in the world tend to be the ones that are the least religious.

New Zealand, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Canada etc.

Honestly, its not at all surprising when you think about it. Religion is primarily a divisive force. Theres a lot of "If youre not with us, youre against us" rhetoric.

Its basically ingrained. Every Theist branch has their own version of god, who in turn prefers a specific type of person who abides by a specific code and obeys a certain set of rules. There are 30000 denominations in Christianity alone. In Theism, division is pretty much inherent.

Yeah for sure. A secular society seems to me to be the way to go. It's just one more step in getting rid of things that divide us. Skin color? Check. Sexual orientation? Working on it. Religion? In time.

Though it's kind of ironic when you think about.
Religious founder/Jesus: Love your enemies.
Religious followers: Kill our enemies!
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#159 Kryten

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:19 PM

What's there to argue with.

Religion enables people to do bat-sh** crazy things? Agree.

The world would be better off without religion? Debatable (as we have never seen a world without religion) but it probably couldn't be any worse. At least people would use reason instead of a 2000 year old book to figure out what is right and wrong. I think it's obvious that religion does do a lot of good for the world as well as bad. It's really hard to say for this one. An example that comes to mind, I don't know if you've read The Better Angels of our Nature by Steven Pinker but he pretty shows that the news tends to focus on the bad and we get this misconception that the world is getting worse and more bad, but in reality it's actually getting better (more moral, less crime etc) but the news is reporting more bad things than ever before. Similarly with religion, the crazy people, and evil things done in the name of religion get a lot more press than the good.

Religious moderates? I don't think they have to be enablers for the extremists. I think they might be able to make a change from the inside (say with issues like homosexuality and promote acceptance and tolerance). It might even work better than having atheists ridicule their beliefs. In fact the ridicule is probably doing more damage than good and making religious people even more convicted in say their beliefs on homosexuality (perhaps they feel persecuted and that God will reward them).

So I didn't ignore your post, I thought it was interesting, I just didn't think you said anything I would argue with except for maybe your view (or Harris's view I should say) on religious moderates.


Thank you for responding. Yes I agree that the media does engage in scare tactics to drive ratings while avoiding facts and positive stories in an effort to drive ratings and attract certain viewers that will buy their advertiser's products. That could be construed as a microcosm of religion; scare tactics and denial of scientific facts used to attract certain followers that will buy and perpetuate the dogma. I haven't read Steven Pinker's book mostly because I am not as interested in the downfall of media as I am other issues (my interest could veer to that area sometime though so I will keep that book in mind). I do watch and enjoy HBO's Newsroom though.

I agree that religious moderates don't have to be enablers of the extremists, but they are fundamentally similar in how they approach their religion. Neither take their holy books to be literally true, they pick and choose certain passages/books that inspire them. The big problem is when a respected individual uses this method to preach to others the meanings they themselves glean from the pages (which likely differs from other representatives' interpretations). People listen to the Imam, they listen to the preacher, they listen to the priest who speaks directly to God (Mormons). They trust them. Without skeptics and without informed detractors, this can be and is a dangerous method of practising religion. Unfortunately this is also the most popular method.

The persecution/ridicule of the gay and lesbian community is not exclusive to religion just as ridicule is not exclusive to non-deists. Using ridicule as an excuse to galvanize belief is a childish stance in my opinion but I do agree that it does take place (with all faiths and beliefs). The first two minutes of this video reveal why no matter how nicely non-theists form their opinion, they will often be called out for being insensitive:



I do recommend that everyone watch the whole video as it answers pretty much every argument we can possibly formulate.

Edited by Kryten, 07 September 2012 - 06:17 PM.

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#160 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:46 PM

Here is where I disagree with you. There is sufficient evidence of a maker, a supreme God, an omnipotent being. That's for another discussion though.


How convenient and typical.
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#161 dajusta

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:31 AM

The bolded part just shows the level of brainwashing that's occurred for a person to actually believe that nonsense.

Christianity wants you to believe that you were born sick and then they order you to be cured.


Umm find me someone who is perfect.

Find me someone who hasn't done a single bad thing in life.

How convenient and typical.


?
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#162 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:42 AM

Umm find me someone who is perfect.

Find me someone who hasn't done a single bad thing in life.


My post had nothing to do with perfection.

I mentioned apples and you responded with a request about oranges.

Try to stick to the point of my post instead of veering off into points about unattainable perfection. By the way, even Jesus wasn't perfect and apparently he was God. Try reconciling that one...after you respond to my previous post of course.
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#163 Jai604

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:02 AM

I need to sleep, but I really think this post is worth responding to.

Is religion really required to tell us what is right? Depends. Nowadays, you can go to your local kindergarten class and they can help you understand right and wrong (to some degree). Don't take our current society morality for granted. It only takes a couple of beers for someone to show their true bite. In a few years, perhaps after another economic crash, people might change their morality. It's fortunate that society is "good".. but that can all change very fast. I think corporate America is actually very corrupt. But hey, that's another topic.. is society getting better or worse​.

My church does preach that non-believers go to hell. Actually I am the pastor of the church. And I wish to share you this story that I share with the members of my church:

When I was young, I was dropped off at church by a family friend who was a non-believer. When I was about to exit the vehicle, she asked me "hey, can't nonbelievers who do good go to heaven?" I was so young at the time, I couldn't really answer the question.

She said very vehemently, "so I'm a non-christian, so I'm not good?"

These questions really haunted me and I had no clear cut answer.

I soon realize that being Christian and following Christ does not make you a perfect person. Nor does it make your actions more golden. Believing in Christ is all about accepting this universal truth - that we are flawed

No matter how hard we try, or how much "good" we do in the world, we will never overcome the nature of that which is human.. We have all fallen short of God's standard of "good".

So what is the Gospel exactly? The good news is the fact that Jesus has come to take humanity's sin, and to bear it, to die with it, and to defeat it. When one person accepts Jesus, they are made righteous through worship, not by moral action.


So.... what you are telling me is that a person who helps the unfortunate, feeds the poor, donates his/her time to humanity and not ONCE commits a crime or does anything unjust or immoral, but simply is an unbeliever, would go to hell? And that a horrible person who commits all manner of crimes and does horrible things to people but prays every day is more righteous?

Is that REALLY what you're trying to tell us here?

What more needs to be said?

I think back to the moment of my family friend who dropped me off at church.. I wish I could now answer her properly. If she asked me "So can't nonbelieving good people go to heaven?" I would respond yes they can... it's too bad nobody on this planet is "good" since we have all fallen short of God's definition of good.

I hope you can follow me on this entire post. I strongly believe the biggest criticism of Christianity is this misunderstanding. The teachings of Jesus doesn't make you automatically righteous.. actually it is the genuine worship of Jesus deems you righteous.


I don't think there's any misunderstanding at all.

Edited by Jai604, 10 September 2012 - 03:05 AM.

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#164 Fathoms

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:56 AM

Umm find me someone who is perfect.

Find me someone who hasn't done a single bad thing in life.


The power disparity between the creator and the created is infinite. This means that the responsibility disparity must necessarily be infinite too. For god to arbitrarily decide on a standard of good that is impossible to practice is the classic tactic of a tyrant who wants to deflect attention away from his own actions. Flooding the planet, sending people who do not worship him to hell. These are things that if I were to do them would brand me as the most immoral bastard in the history of history. So if god wants me to grovel at his knees trying to justify my existence to him than he needs to first knock on my door and explain himself. He has my address, he has my phone number, and I am an entirely approachable person. But if he is going to be a dick about it and rely on the viral marketing tactics of his followers than he's already told me everything I need to know about his character.

Edited by Fathoms, 10 September 2012 - 06:57 AM.

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#165 Tearloch7

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:06 AM

The power disparity between the creator and the created is infinite. This means that the responsibility disparity must necessarily be infinite too. For god to arbitrarily decide on a standard of good that is impossible to practice is the classic tactic of a tyrant who wants to deflect attention away from his own actions. Flooding the planet, sending people who do not worship him to hell. These are things that if I were to do them would brand me as the most immoral bastard in the history of history. So if god wants me to grovel at his knees trying to justify my existence to him than he needs to first knock on my door and explain himself. He has my address, he has my phone number, and I am an entirely approachable person. But if he is going to be a dick about it and rely on the viral marketing tactics of his followers than he's already told me everything I need to know about his character.


Wonderfully put .. although I am sure some here can twist "Gods own words" to justify His position .. the first mistake is people taking words that were written, then translated and re-translated until they become a mish-mash of self serving drivel, then using for their own agenda's ..
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#166 dajusta

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:58 AM

My post had nothing to do with perfection.

I mentioned apples and you responded with a request about oranges.

Try to stick to the point of my post instead of veering off into points about unattainable perfection. By the way, even Jesus wasn't perfect and apparently he was God. Try reconciling that one...after you respond to my previous post of course.


You had everything to talk about good and bad. Your post argued that the church brainwashes people to think we are bad.

Well sir, argue the fact that we aren't flawed. Which the definition of 'not flawed' is the definition of 'perfect'.


The power disparity between the creator and the created is infinite. This means that the responsibility disparity must necessarily be infinite too. For god to arbitrarily decide on a standard of good that is impossible to practice is the classic tactic of a tyrant who wants to deflect attention away from his own actions. Flooding the planet, sending people who do not worship him to hell. These are things that if I were to do them would brand me as the most immoral bastard in the history of history. So if god wants me to grovel at his knees trying to justify my existence to him than he needs to first knock on my door and explain himself. He has my address, he has my phone number, and I am an entirely approachable person. But if he is going to be a dick about it and rely on the viral marketing tactics of his followers than he's already told me everything I need to know about his character.


It is extremely arrogant for you, a finite being, to have passed judgement on a supreme being.

You lack wisdom, you lack foresight, and you lack all power. You see but only a fraction of a fraction of time and space. Yet you have the audacity to call God a dick?

You think he arbitrarily sets a standard of unattainable good, but in essence it isn't he who 'sets' it, but rather it is his nature alone. How can God be anything but himself? He can't revert to 'half good' if he wanted to. It's not even remotely possible. Sir, can a girl be 'half pregnant'? You either are, or you're not. Don't let the spectrum of extremities fool you. God is good. The absolute good. There is no 'most immoral bastard in history'. There is no spectrum of good or evil. To God, you just are, or you're not. Let me ask you, if only 5,999,999 Jews died in the Holocaust, would it not be considered bad? If only 1 Jew died in the Holocaust, would it not be considered bad? Where is the line of "suffering"? Evil is evil.

Maybe then I can explain to you why we have all have fallen short of God's standard. Due to free will.

Sir, do you ever like forced into loving your mom? Or forced into loving your girlfriend, fiance, or wife? No, you aren't forced. Because nobody likes to be a robot. God doesn't want humanity to be robots either, so God so lovingly gave humanity the option to choose. This option of choice needs to have an alternative - which is the opposite of love, opposite of good, opposite of holy. We categorize these things as hate, suffering, sin.

If you would so arrogantly remove hate, suffering and sin from the world, you quintessentially remove the opposite of those things. You would be removing love, good and holy.

Your arrogant thought of 'God needs to explain himself' is such a farcry from utopia. In fact, it sounds like another human attempt for a dystopia.

Edited by dajusta, 10 September 2012 - 09:06 AM.

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#167 Tearloch7

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:07 AM

So, love and worship me or rot in eternal damnation?? .. a truly benevolent God, indeed .. some choice .. :)
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#168 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:06 AM

You had everything to talk about good and bad. Your post argued that the church brainwashes people to think we are bad.

Well sir, argue the fact that we aren't flawed. Which the definition of 'not flawed' is the definition of 'perfect'.


My post had to do with being 'created' 'sick', not about being 'perfect'.....as in the ridiculous belief of original sin, which if 'uncured' is met with an eternity of pain, suffering and torture.....again, according to the prognosis of the institution called Christianity, where the patients run the asylum.

You're arguing something that you've come by way of your own misunderstanding and mis-comprehension. I'd never suggest that a human was 'perfect' in any way. We are a product adaptation...something that is hardly a perfect process and no human being is born with the ability to never make a mistake regarding anything.

What you don't seem to be able to wrap around your head is that according to the fairy tales, which are man-made, your creator created you 'ill'....and then said that if you want to be rid of that illness and live with him later on, you have to get rid of your illness, because he doesn't want any ill-folk living with him. Now think about that, he purposefully made you ill and then orders you to get well from the disease that he inflicted upon you. And I rightly say he inflicted it upon you because it stands to reason that he knew that free-will would end up making you sick, and even 'knowing' that, as he is omniscient, he let your fore-bearers become ill and let the rest of their children be born ill for ever after.....even though he set you up to become ill and knew that's how it would play out, because he created us....which i'm sure he took some time to consider in the planning process, aside from all the design flaws inherent in the human body and mind, of course.....not to mention those he created homosexual, but then opposes. What a guy!

Like I said, he's a sadist, for the very reasons I mentioned. He's either incompetent as a creator and a designer or he purposefully created us this way to watch us suffer, even after 'saving' us by scapegoating his only son, which by the way was another flawed effort on his part because had he created us differently from the start, he wouldn't have had to sacrifice his son. Your god is a sadist that either enjoys the suffering helped in creating, or he's incompetent for starting it without being able to do anything about it, except to sit by and watch as generation after generation of his creation, especially the most innocent of them, suffer unnecessarily.

The fact that you find that praise-worthy or something to glorify and brings you joy makes you a masochist.

So, if you want to talk about that, by all means, the floor is yours pastor dajusta.


It is extremely arrogant for you, a finite being, to have passed judgement on a supreme being.

You lack wisdom, you lack foresight, and you lack all power. You see but only a fraction of a fraction of time and space. Yet you have the audacity to call God a dick?

You think he arbitrarily sets a standard of unattainable good, but in essence it isn't he who 'sets' it, but rather it is his nature alone. How can God be anything but himself? He can't revert to 'half good' if he wanted to. It's not even remotely possible. Sir, can a girl be 'half pregnant'? You either are, or you're not. Don't let the spectrum of extremities fool you. God is good. The absolute good. There is no 'most immoral bastard in history'. There is no spectrum of good or evil. To God, you just are, or you're not. Let me ask you, if only 5,999,999 Jews died in the Holocaust, would it not be considered bad? If only 1 Jew died in the Holocaust, would it not be considered bad? Where is the line of "suffering"? Evil is evil.

Maybe then I can explain to you why we have all have fallen short of God's standard. Due to free will.

Sir, do you ever like forced into loving your mom? Or forced into loving your girlfriend, fiance, or wife? No, you aren't forced. Because nobody likes to be a robot. God doesn't want humanity to be robots either, so God so lovingly gave humanity the option to choose. This option of choice needs to have an alternative - which is the opposite of love, opposite of good, opposite of holy. We categorize these things as hate, suffering, sin.

If you would so arrogantly remove hate, suffering and sin from the world, you quintessentially remove the opposite of those things. You would be removing love, good and holy.

Your arrogant thought of 'God needs to explain himself' is such a farcry from utopia. In fact, it sounds like another human attempt for a dystopia.


I wanted to make a few points about your response to this poster's post.

1) On passing judgement....judge not, lest ye be judged....Matthew 7:1......what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we are to be judged by our 'creator' and one of our 'gifts' is free-will, then we by all means are able and have the right to use that gift to judge our creator's work based on the character and ability of the creator itself. If he doesn't want us judging him, then he shouldn't judge us. Doing so wouldn't only open him up to charges of hypocrisy....which would be a flaw in him, which would only show us that he is himself an imperfect being and further cast him as a hypocrite for judging and sentencing us based on our imperfections and flaws, all the while being flawed and imperfect himself.

2) If God can't be anything but himself, then who is he to judge us as being anything but what he created us to be?? We are flawed and imperfect....exactly as he made us to be. If he wants to hold us accountable for his design, then he should hold himself accountable to us for being such a poor or thoughtless designer.

3) Standing by and watching 6 million Jews get slaughtered by the most vicious of his own creation is evil, because :

"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."


"All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing."


"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."


God accepted that evil act, and many before it and many since after....and hasn't done a goddamn thing but watch. While good men fought against atrocity, he sat there and watched and did nothing, knowing that though they fought the good fight, the good would not be able to get there in time to stop those that pursued evil. That's sadistic and truly 'sick'. Putting your creation through pain and torture even temporarily and even with the reward of eternal bliss, is still immoral and deviant....which goes to the character of your 'creator'.

Face it, you've got the Stockholm syndrome bad, like a kidnapped victim who just wants to be loved and has understandably fallen in love and league with the more powerful being that initially perpetrated a crime upon you, but who you have somehow rationalized in your brain as being an act of 'salvation' and everyone else that looks to that being as a criminal are simply misguided and don't understand how much he really cares about you and loves you, because we just don't get how awesome it is to be with someone like him.

I dunno, maybe you're moreso like a self-deluded abused spouse rather than a kidnap victim at this stage. Either or, I suppose.

4) If God planned and created you to have free-will to follow his design, then it isn't 'free' as it is according to his will. Bottom line, if you believe you have free-will because you were ordered through your creation to have it, then you don't get that it isn't actually 'free'......because a) it isn't yours, it's given to you, and b ) it will cost you even though you didn't agree to the charges before it was given to you.

You have free-will because it was given to you....because you had no choice......think about that.
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#169 dajusta

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:48 AM

My post had to do with being 'created' 'sick', not about being 'perfect'.....as in the ridiculous belief of original sin, which if 'uncured' is met with an eternity of pain, suffering and torture.....again, according to the prognosis of the institution called Christianity, where the patients run the asylum.

You're arguing something that you've come by way of your own misunderstanding and mis-comprehension. I'd never suggest that a human was 'perfect' in any way. We are a product adaptation...something that is hardly a perfect process and no human being is born with the ability to never make a mistake regarding anything.

What you don't seem to be able to wrap around your head is that according to the fairy tales, which are man-made, your creator created you 'ill'....and then said that if you want to be rid of that illness and live with him later on, you have to get rid of your illness, because he doesn't want any ill-folk living with him. Now think about that, he purposefully made you ill and then orders you to get well from the disease that he inflicted upon you. And I rightly say he inflicted it upon you because it stands to reason that he knew that free-will would end up making you sick, and even 'knowing' that, as he is omniscient, he let your fore-bearers become ill and let the rest of their children be born ill for ever after.....even though he set you up to become ill and knew that's how it would play out, because he created us....which i'm sure he took some time to consider in the planning process, aside from all the design flaws inherent in the human body and mind, of course.....not to mention those he created homosexual, but then opposes. What a guy!

Like I said, he's a sadist, for the very reasons I mentioned. He's either incompetent as a creator and a designer or he purposefully created us this way to watch us suffer, even after 'saving' us by scapegoating his only son, which by the way was another flawed effort on his part because had he created us differently from the start, he wouldn't have had to sacrifice his son. Your god is a sadist that either enjoys the suffering helped in creating, or he's incompetent for starting it without being able to do anything about it, except to sit by and watch as generation after generation of his creation, especially the most innocent of them, suffer unnecessarily.

The fact that you find that praise-worthy or something to glorify and brings you joy makes you a masochist.

So, if you want to talk about that, by all means, the floor is yours pastor dajusta.




I wanted to make a few points about your response to this poster's post.

1) On passing judgement....judge not, lest ye be judged....Matthew 7:1......what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we are to be judged by our 'creator' and one of our 'gifts' is free-will, then we by all means are able and have the right to use that gift to judge our creator's work based on the character and ability of the creator itself. If he doesn't want us judging him, then he shouldn't judge us. Doing so wouldn't only open him up to charges of hypocrisy....which would be a flaw in him, which would only show us that he is himself an imperfect being and further cast him as a hypocrite for judging and sentencing us based on our imperfections and flaws, all the while being flawed and imperfect himself.

2) If God can't be anything but himself, then who is he to judge us as being anything but what he created us to be?? We are flawed and imperfect....exactly as he made us to be. If he wants to hold us accountable for his design, then he should hold himself accountable to us for being such a poor or thoughtless designer.

3) Standing by and watching 6 million Jews get slaughtered by the most vicious of his own creation is evil, because :

"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."


"All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing."


"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."


God accepted that evil act, and many before it and many since after....and hasn't done a goddamn thing but watch. While good men fought against atrocity, he sat there and watched and did nothing, knowing that though they fought the good fight, the good would not be able to get there in time to stop those that pursued evil. That's sadistic and truly 'sick'. Putting your creation through pain and torture even temporarily and even with the reward of eternal bliss, is still immoral and deviant....which goes to the character of your 'creator'.

Face it, you've got the Stockholm syndrome bad, like a kidnapped victim who just wants to be loved and has understandably fallen in love and league with the more powerful being that initially perpetrated a crime upon you, but who you have somehow rationalized in your brain as being an act of 'salvation' and everyone else that looks to that being as a criminal are simply misguided and don't understand how much he really cares about you and loves you, because we just don't get how awesome it is to be with someone like him.

I dunno, maybe you're moreso like a self-deluded abused spouse rather than a kidnap victim at this stage. Either or, I suppose.

4) If God planned and created you to have free-will to follow his design, then it isn't 'free' as it is according to his will. Bottom line, if you believe you have free-will because you were ordered through your creation to have it, then you don't get that it isn't actually 'free'......because a) it isn't yours, it's given to you, and b ) it will cost you even though you didn't agree to the charges before it was given to you.

You have free-will because it was given to you....because you had no choice......think about that.


I argue something that is not through misunderstanding or misconception. It is a belief shared among many scholars and theists. Your argument on the other hand is something that leading skeptics don't even use remotely as an argument, and I quote you:

"[God is] flawed and imperfect himself"

What kind of skeptic argues this? None.

Would I really argue that humanity is born ill? No. But I would argue that humanity has the potential to born ill, and in 100% of the cases, we actualize that potential. Due to free will. Following me here?

BTW - way to skip the entire crux of my Holocaust point. At what point is evil not evil, half evil, or a fraction of evil? Whether if 1 Jew is slaughtered, or whether if 6 million Jews are slaughtered? This is the point against the poster's view on "most immoral bastard in history" due to seemingly little flaws.

God accepted that evil act, and many before it and many since after....and hasn't done a goddamn thing but watch. While good men fought against atrocity, he sat there and watched and did nothing, knowing that though they fought the good fight, the good would not be able to get there in time to stop those that pursued evil. That's sadistic and truly 'sick'. Putting your creation through pain and torture even temporarily and even with the reward of eternal bliss, is still immoral and deviant....which goes to the character of your 'creator'.



Yeah? You witnessed God work in his mysterious ways? You saw him sit in his throne and see that he has done nothing? Show me this recording of yours. Link me to God's passivity in the world? Show me by your mere human ability that you have tangible history all written down on paper.

Look, Mr. Sharpshooter, it seems like you have all the criticism in the world, so let me ask you one question - If YOU were God, how would you design humanity?

Robots? Or with free will?

I gotta hear this.

Edited by dajusta, 10 September 2012 - 10:55 AM.

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#170 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:20 PM

I argue something that is not through misunderstanding or misconception. It is a belief shared among many scholars and theists. Your argument on the other hand is something that leading skeptics don't even use remotely as an argument, and I quote you:

"[God is] flawed and imperfect himself"

What kind of skeptic argues this? None.

Would I really argue that humanity is born ill? No. But I would argue that humanity has the potential to born ill, and in 100% of the cases, we actualize that potential. Due to free will. Following me here?

BTW - way to skip the entire crux of my Holocaust point. At what point is evil not evil, half evil, or a fraction of evil? Whether if 1 Jew is slaughtered, or whether if 6 million Jews are slaughtered? This is the point against the poster's view on "most immoral bastard in history" due to seemingly little flaws.



Yeah? You witnessed God work in his mysterious ways? You saw him sit in his throne and see that he has done nothing? Show me this recording of yours. Link me to God's passivity in the world? Show me by your mere human ability that you have tangible history all written down on paper.

Look, Mr. Sharpshooter, it seems like you have all the criticism in the world, so let me ask you one question - If YOU were God, how would you design humanity?

Robots? Or with free will?

I gotta hear this.


I am a skeptic. I argue that he is flawed and imperfect by the imperfections of his creations. I don't need any other skeptic else to argue this in order for me to.

Also, you can argue whatever you like, however,you still missed the point of the post you originally responded to and continue to go on your tangential argument as if that's what my post was speaking to.

I never suggested that human being don't have the capability to 'do ill', so that's irrelevant to my assertion that your creator, based on and by your religion's dogma, created all humans 'ill' with original sin. I know you know what I was referring to, and I know you won't argue that part of your religion's dogma, as it's central to the premise of absolution and salvation. So, let's just stick with the what i was actually talking about, and avoid going off on a tangent about realizations of illness because of free will and what-not. If you want to discuss free will, i'd be more than happy to as a separate point.....but, the point about being created 'ill' and commanded 'cured' in the face of eternal pain, suffering and torture stands as the point, which has yet to be challenged or conceded. I await either, before discussing or debating any further point you'd like to touch on. I'd appreciate you doing one of two before we move on.

I'll let the poster who you made the Holocaust point to address it himself, since the definition of 'evil' like so many words defined by the religious are arbitrary and morally relative.

And how can one 'know' when one works mysteriously? If something, such as for example, the creation of our universe, can be shown to have not needed the explicit creation by an intervening supernatural entity because there is evidence of its ability to exist through natural means, then knowing how a supernatural being supernaturally creates the natural isn't required knowledge as there's already whose mystery has been brought into the light out from the shadows of knowledge.

Asking me to show you a recording of how he mysteriously does anything, is like me asking you to record and show me the orbital path of the mysterious teapot orbiting Jupiter.....on paper....or pray real hard and see if your god can provide you with the answer.

I'll wait.

And lastly, I wouldn't presume to ever be omniscient or omnipotent. I am finite, flawed and evolving as I hurtle through the temporal plane seemingly faster and faster with the knowledge that I hurtle to my pre-ordained demise.....not because my demise has been ordained supernaturally, but because it's my birth-right and part of my natural existence and in the mean-time, I can choose to be a robotic consequence of natural creation, seized by dogmatic constraints and supernaturally contrived regulations or one of actual free-will, free-thought, with freedom to love who I choose, how I choose, and in every way equal to the way that my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters should be able to....who don't need to be cured, and don't need to be told that they'll go to an eternity of damnation and suffering for choosing to be as they apparently were 'created', in both the natural secular and supernatural theistic meaning of that word.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 10 September 2012 - 12:22 PM.

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#171 Kryten

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 01:04 PM

  It is extremely arrogant for you, a finite being, to have passed judgement on a supreme being.  


But is it not arrogant to lecture others about something of which you have no facts about? I assume you know as little about an intelligent design or a supreme being as I do but if I'm wrong, what is the source of your knowledge that gives you the right to preach about God to your congregation, or us for that matter?

Maybe then I can explain to you why we have all have fallen short of God's standard.  Due to free will.  

Sir, do you ever like forced into loving your mom? Or forced into loving your girlfriend, fiance, or wife?  No, you aren't forced.  Because nobody likes to be a robot.  God doesn't want humanity to be robots either, so God so lovingly gave humanity the option to choose.  This option of choice needs to have an alternative - which is the opposite of love, opposite of good, opposite of holy.  We categorize these things as hate, suffering, sin.

If you would so arrogantly remove hate, suffering and sin from the world, you quintessentially remove the opposite of those things.  You would be removing love, good and holy.

Your arrogant thought of God needs to explain himself is such a farcry from utopia. In fact, it sounds like another human attempt for a dystopia.


Nobody likes to be a robot but that doesn't mean human robots don't exist (check your local mental health facility). Free will is not available to everyone on the planet. Is this God's error or God's purpose? Either way it doesn't paint Him in a very positive light.  

What kind of skeptic argues this?  None.  


Actually the most public skeptics use this argument: Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, James Randi and Michio Kaku (all of which have videos on youtube). I don't make this point to call you stupid, it tells me that while you are obviously willing to argue your position (thank you for that), you may not be as experienced in such endeavours as your opponents are. If interested in having a better idea of our "platform" so to speak, I suggest going on youtube and watching videos featuring the above names.
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#172 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 01:29 PM

Just another example of how religious dogma brainwashing people and how it gets in the way of actual knowledge. I'm not sure who I pity more, the man, or his child.

Ontario Dad Wants Option Of Pulling Kids From Class Based On Religious Beliefs


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TORONTO - An Ontario father is taking his children's school board to court in a bid for advance notice on lesson plans that might contradict his Christian beliefs.

Steve Tourloukis is asking Ontario's Superior Court to force the Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board for a heads-up when topics such as marriage, family and sexuality will be discussed in his kids' classes.

It's discriminatory to deny him the religious accommodation when it is provided to people of other faiths, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Tourloukis said Monday at a news conference.

He dismissed the idea of educating his children — a son in Grade 4 and a daughter in Grade 1 — in the separate school system.

"Why should I send my children to another school?" he said. "I pay my taxes...I don't see why somebody else's discrimination should cause me, should influence where I send my children. Not in a free country. Not in Canada."

Tourloukis noted that he teaches his children that everyone is made in the image of God and to love people who are different from them, but said this isn't about his religious beliefs.

"This is about a parent's right to know what is being taught in schools," he said.

"My children are my own. I own them. They don't belong to the school board."

The Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board said a spokesperson would be available later Monday to comment.

Education Minister Laurel Broten said she believes in the province's "evidence-based curriculum" and it must be taught across Ontario.

"We are confident and stand by our curriculum and all boards across the province have religious accommodation protocols that they put in place at a local level," she said.

NDP Leader Andrea Horwath said decisions about accommodations are up to the local school boards.

"That's why we have independently elected trustees," she said. "It remains their purview to make those decisions and to determine what the board can handle as far as accommodating the needs of parents and the kids."


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#173 dajusta

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:33 PM

I am a skeptic. I argue that he is flawed and imperfect by the imperfections of his creations. I don't need any other skeptic else to argue this in order for me to.


How does that make any logical sense or provide a solid conclusion to your own beliefs? You argue that if God exists, he would be flawed, and therefore if he is flawed, he doesn't exist? But if God is flawed, then he isn't God? What ultimately passes judgement on God as flawed? Humanity? How is humanity able to judge God? How does a convicted criminal pass judgement on the jury?

Lend me your thoughts on this one.

Also, you can argue whatever you like, however,you still missed the point of the post you originally responded to and continue to go on your tangential argument as if that's what my post was speaking to.

I never suggested that human being don't have the capability to 'do ill', so that's irrelevant to my assertion that your creator, based on and by your religion's dogma, created all humans 'ill' with original sin. I know you know what I was referring to, and I know you won't argue that part of your religion's dogma, as it's central to the premise of absolution and salvation. So, let's just stick with the what i was actually talking about, and avoid going off on a tangent about realizations of illness because of free will and what-not. If you want to discuss free will, i'd be more than happy to as a separate point.....but, the point about being created 'ill' and commanded 'cured' in the face of eternal pain, suffering and torture stands as the point, which has yet to be challenged or conceded. I await either, before discussing or debating any further point you'd like to touch on. I'd appreciate you doing one of two before we move on.


Original sin, we are born with a capacity to choose and we choose sin. Do you know someone who is perfect from birth? Who have made the right selfless decision every time? Or is humanity born with self interest?

It is a choice we all make. It comes with the free will of choosing. You try to complicate matters by crossing your arms and labeling it an "illness" and thinking Christianity is dumb for offering a "cure", but that's not even the case.

A real "cure" would be to remove free-will. Which isn't what Jesus offers. So you can really drop the entire illness and cure imagery. Christians are continually choosing to worship God. We recognize that humanity imperfect, and that we ourselves are sinners. The difference is that we acknowledge that Jesus is God, and that through the Resurrection he died with our sins that we make past, present and future.

It isn't a cure.


I'll let the poster who you made the Holocaust point to address it himself, since the definition of 'evil' like so many words defined by the religious are arbitrary and morally relative


Sure.

And how can one 'know' when one works mysteriously? If something, such as for example, the creation of our universe, can be shown to have not needed the explicit creation by an intervening supernatural entity because there is evidence of its ability to exist through natural means, then knowing how a supernatural being supernaturally creates the natural isn't required knowledge as there's already whose mystery has been brought into the light out from the shadows of knowledge.

Asking me to show you a recording of how he mysteriously does anything, is like me asking you to record and show me the orbital path of the mysterious teapot orbiting Jupiter.....on paper....or pray real hard and see if your god can provide you with the answer.

I'll wait.


Right, so you concede you can't watch exactly what God is doing 24/7 so you don't have the right to assert that God is this maniacal creator who put things in motion, then sits back and watches the suffering continue.

And lastly, I wouldn't presume to ever be omniscient or omnipotent. I am finite, flawed and evolving as I hurtle through the temporal plane seemingly faster and faster with the knowledge that I hurtle to my pre-ordained demise.....not because my demise has been ordained supernaturally, but because it's my birth-right and part of my natural existence and in the mean-time, I can choose to be a robotic consequence of natural creation, seized by dogmatic constraints and supernaturally contrived regulations or one of actual free-will, free-thought, with freedom to love who I choose, how I choose, and in every way equal to the way that my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters should be able to....who don't need to be cured, and don't need to be told that they'll go to an eternity of damnation and suffering for choosing to be as they apparently were 'created', in both the natural secular and supernatural theistic meaning of that word.


Nice dodge. C'mon, give it your best shot.

If you were God, how would you design humanity? Creation? Suffering?

Don't give me 100 words of why you're a mere finite human being. It's refreshing to hear, but I don't wanna hear that. I wanna hear someone who criticizes God so much provide a better view on morality, suffering, good, evil, and humanity.

Edited by dajusta, 10 September 2012 - 05:33 PM.

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#174 dajusta

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:45 PM

But is it not arrogant to lecture others about something of which you have no facts about? I assume you know as little about an intelligent design or a supreme being as I do but if I'm wrong, what is the source of your knowledge that gives you the right to preach about God to your congregation, or us for that matter?


A number of philosophers and scholars on ancient manuscript.. cultural anthropologists and ethics teachers.

Like many atheists who use their science text books and atheist references, theists have their own sources.

Nobody likes to be a robot but that doesn't mean human robots don't exist (check your local mental health facility). Free will is not available to everyone on the planet. Is this God's error or God's purpose? Either way it doesn't paint Him in a very positive light.


Everyone has free will. Everyone has the capacity of what they believe in.

I concede that not everyone has the right of clean drinking water, or the freedom to have a hotdog, or the freedom to breathe fresh clean air.. All people are born into different circumstances. But everyone has the freedom to believe.

Actually the most public skeptics use this argument: Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, James Randi and Michio Kaku (all of which have videos on youtube). I don't make this point to call you stupid, it tells me that while you are obviously willing to argue your position (thank you for that), you may not be as experienced in such endeavours as your opponents are. If interested in having a better idea of our "platform" so to speak, I suggest going on youtube and watching videos featuring the above names.


Those leading skeptics try to debunk what Christians say about God. None of them come to the conclusion that God is flawed. Their conclusion is "God doesn't exist". Skeptics attempt to find flaws that make the Christian logic crumble. You see, what Sharp tried to do is conclude that God is flawed. If you can see in any and all of his posts, he is losing it.

Sharpshooter either believes in two things: a) that God does exist, but he is flawed therefore he should not be worshipped.. or b ) I can't know if God exists because he is flawed, therefore I can't worship something I don't know.

TBH he never revealed what he believes in... Yet he speaks with so much conviction.

Edited by dajusta, 10 September 2012 - 05:46 PM.

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#175 Nevlach

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:48 PM

Those leading skeptics try to debunk what Christians say about God. None of them come to the conclusion that God is flawed. Their conclusion is "God doesn't exist". Skeptics attempt to find flaws that make the Christian logic crumble. You see, what Sharp tried to do is conclude that God is flawed. If you can see in any and all of his posts, he is losing it.

Sharpshooter either believes in two things: a) that God does exist, but he is flawed therefore he should not be worshipped.. or b ) I can't know if God exists because he is flawed, therefore I can't worship something I don't know.

TBH he never revealed what he believes in... Yet he speaks with so much conviction.


Well technically Hitchens wrote an entire book based on that topic...
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#176 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:14 PM

?


You said you had evidence, why don't you share it with the rest of the class and put this argument to bed.
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#177 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:27 PM

Those leading skeptics try to debunk what Christians say about God. None of them come to the conclusion that God is flawed. Their conclusion is "God doesn't exist". Skeptics attempt to find flaws that make the Christian logic crumble. You see, what Sharp tried to do is conclude that God is flawed. If you can see in any and all of his posts, he is losing it.

Sharpshooter either believes in two things: a) that God does exist, but he is flawed therefore he should not be worshipped.. or b ) I can't know if God exists because he is flawed, therefore I can't worship something I don't know.

TBH he never revealed what he believes in... Yet he speaks with so much conviction.


If you haven't figured out Sharps stance on this matter by now then any further correspondence with you isn't as "fruitless" as it is hopeless. He tried to explain it using science but since that didn't work his argument has been reduced to something he thinks you will understand, nonsensical jibberish.?
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#178 Jai604

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:03 PM

Here is where I disagree with you. There is sufficient evidence of a maker, a supreme God, an omnipotent being. That's for another discussion though.


Feel free to enlighten us with this evidence.

Edited by Jai604, 10 September 2012 - 08:12 PM.

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#179 Tearloch7

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:18 PM

Feel free to enlighten us with this evidence.


And NO, Donald Trump's life story does NOT count .. :rolleyes:
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#180 Nevlach

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:24 PM

Feel free to enlighten us with this evidence.

Well there is a lot of "evidence" (be it scientific, historical, or philosophical) put forth by guys like John Lennox, William Lane Craig, Mike Licona, N.T. Wright, Gary Habermas, Alvin Plantinga, among many others...whether that "evidence" is sufficient for belief is up to the individual.
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