Christian Doctor Chemically Castrated Boy As Part Of 'Gay Cure'.

[Buddhas Hand]

What about children who are indoctrinated with religious dogma during their formative years?

I think it's a bit unrealistic to think that our upbringing and things we learn do not affect the way we think, and that we have complete free will. The whole point is that these people think what they are doing is right. The suicide bomber truly believe what he is doing is right, irregardless of whether or not his will is free. He freely chooses to do it, because he thinks it's right.

THAT's the problem.

[dajusta]

So I read enough of the recent posts to summarize a few thoughts:

1) Religion is bad because it only leads people into war

2) Religion replaces a person's logic

3) Children who are born into Christian families have no free will

Are any or all of these statements true?

[Jai604]

I was indoctrinated with religious dogma in my formative years , that did not stop me from excercising my free will and CHOOSING not to believe the BS i was being told.

at some point in your life you have to take charge , make decisions for yourself , and take responsibility for the repercussions of those decisions .

do you think that people who kill because they are motivated by religion think they are more right than people who kill in the name of their country ? I think not , they have both have found ways to rationalise their actions ,

I reiterate religion does not allow people to justifiy their actions , people allow religion to justify their actions , and this is what really pisses me off the most , people who do not want to take responibility for their actions .

[dajusta]

I'd say that you were lucky to escape your religious upbringing, then. That being said, I don't think the same can be said of other people who may live in places where it's just not possible, or not as easy to do so.

How does someone choose not to be religious if they don't know any better? If they live in an extremely religious place, surrounded by very religious people? You can't really think that everyone can just as easily rationalize and come to the same conclusions as you, do you? I know you're an intelligent guy, so I can't believe that you truly think that anyone can just shed their religious indoctrination by suddenly having an epiphany.

[Jai604]

1) Religion is bad because it only leads people into war

[Jai604]

Can I ask you how you would feel if children are born in atheistic families and not knowing religion at all? Does that strike a nerve to you too?

[dajusta]

I'd say they're much better off.

That being said, if they so choose to find religion later in life, when they are old enough to make that decision, then so be it.

See the thing is, atheistic families aren't mutilating their babies' genitals before the child can even decide whether or not he'she would like to be religious. That's criminal.

That's just one example, obviously, but you get my point.

[dajusta]

I'd say they're much better off.

[Jai604]

What makes the entire discussion extremely difficult to reach any conclusions is this: we always go between ideology and reality.

For example - atheists claim realistic practices of theists are ridiculous, but then a theists would claim that the ideologies hold value. Then an atheists claim that a secular world has perfect ideology, where a theist would interject by showing realistic facts about atheism.

There needs to be one dialogue. Either in the realistic realm, or the ideological realm. Can't go back and forth on the subject matter.. we really don't achieve anything. Simply because humans are flawed people, believing in God or not.

[Jai604]

Obviously since you are a nonbeliever. Guess what I would say?

[Buddhas Hand]

I'd say that you were lucky to escape your religious upbringing, then. That being said, I don't think the same can be said of other people who may live in places where it's just not possible, or not as easy to do so.

How does someone choose not to be religious if they don't know any better? If they live in an extremely religious place, surrounded by very religious people? You can't really think that everyone can just as easily rationalize and come to the same conclusions as you, do you? I know you're an intelligent guy, so I can't believe that you truly think that anyone can just shed their religious indoctrination by suddenly having an epiphany.

[Jai604]

I realise that a lot of people are weak willed , and are willing to swap free will for faith , hope and predestiny amongst other things , but this does not make it right .

and there are many cases of people rejecting an evil philosphy inspite of their upbringing and nurture , it all depends on the person taking responsibility for their own actions , and the consequences of their actions

[dajusta]

Well you see, that's the thing. The theology is the basis for the reality. The reason people mutilate the genitals of babies is because their theology dictates it so. The Koran dictates jihadism, and that dying for Allah promises you virgins in heaven. Catholic theology threatens people with eternal suffering. Those theologies directly lead to real-world applications of those ideas.

You can't talk about one without talking about the other.

[dajusta]

OK, so while what you're saying may be true, like you said, a lot of people are "weak-willed" as you put it. Does religion not take advantage of those people then?

That's kind of my point, really.

[Buddhas Hand]

OK, so while what you're saying may be true, like you said, a lot of people are "weak-willed" as you put it. Does religion not take advantage of those people then?

That's kind of my point, really.

Are you trying to say that religion is fine because people have the choice to reject it?

[Jai604]

Then let's just stick with ideology. Don't have to talk about other things like extremists taking scripture out of context (or cults for that matter).

It's unfortunate that stupid Christians make Christianity look bad, but I can say the same about atheists. Since it's a stupid argument, I never use it as debate fodder.

Right but you see the underlying intent on why I asked. It's silly to be outraged at the fact that people are raised in a religious-only environment because it's a matter of perspective.

[dajusta]

No, but you see, my point is, stupid atheists for the most part (I'm sure you may find a few extreme examples) aren't doing stupid things out of their nonbelief of god. They are doing stupid things because they are just stupid.

What I'm saying, is that religion can make an otherwise intelligent, just, and moral person do highly immoral, unjust, and unintelligent things. What I'm saying is that the motivation behind those "stupid things" as you said is the real root of the issue.

Like I stated earlier, people will always fight over land, money, power and oil. That's not unique to atheists, however. That's a trait of humanity as a whole.

Blowing yourself up in order to get virgins in heaven, however, is a uniquely religious thing.

My outrage for people being raised in a religious context while still an infant is because they don't get to choose. It is about threatening a child with eternal suffering, fire, and pain. It's terrorizing them into following religious dogma. That's what I get outraged at.

[Jai604]

What you categorize as "take advantage" I say as "God's providence".

Is it really dumb to think we all experience God differently? (this would require you to assume God exists for one minute). Some people come to God easier than others. Some need more evidence of his existence.

Come to the table open minded. Say to yourself "If God really does exist, and if some people were simply born straight into it.. is that reasonable?"

[dajusta]

Not once did I say it was dumb. I said it was illogical to believe in anything without good supporting evidence for it. Religious people always say "it's faith". That in itself is illogical, in my eyes.

Now, I'm not even arguing about the existence of god. That's a whole other can of worms. What I'm saying, is the dangers of people believing in things when there is no evidence for it. That's dangerous, in my eyes.

I mean, what is the difference in someone claiming that god looks like a purple hippo with eagle wings? And that praying to this hippo every day will allow you to enter a world of rainbows and marshmallows when you die? People would ridicule such beliefs, because they are outlandish and there is no evidence to support it. So what's the difference with the world's established religions, then?

God may indeed exist. I'm not saying it's impossible. All I'm saying, is that it's dangerous to believe that god exists since there has been no evidence to support that extraordinary claim.

[Buddhas Hand]

Cool bro, I think we getting somewhere.

Here's what I'l have to say about that - when you are a child is it reasonable to listen to your parents?

Should a child need evidence to listen to his/her parents? Is it completely sound to trust your parents?

I think so.

You'd probably now ask, is it irresponsible on the parent's behalf to teach religion to a child, based on the fact there is a lack of credible evidence? Here is where I disagree with you. There is sufficient evidence of a maker, a supreme God, an omnipotent being. That's for another discussion though.