dajusta Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The bolded part just shows the level of brainwashing that's occurred for a person to actually believe that nonsense. Christianity wants you to believe that you were born sick and then they order you to be cured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Umm find me someone who is perfect. Find me someone who hasn't done a single bad thing in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jai604 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I need to sleep, but I really think this post is worth responding to. Is religion really required to tell us what is right? Depends. Nowadays, you can go to your local kindergarten class and they can help you understand right and wrong (to some degree). Don't take our current society morality for granted. It only takes a couple of beers for someone to show their true bite. In a few years, perhaps after another economic crash, people might change their morality. It's fortunate that society is "good".. but that can all change very fast. I think corporate America is actually very corrupt. But hey, that's another topic.. is society getting better or worse. My church does preach that non-believers go to hell. Actually I am the pastor of the church. And I wish to share you this story that I share with the members of my church: When I was young, I was dropped off at church by a family friend who was a non-believer. When I was about to exit the vehicle, she asked me "hey, can't nonbelievers who do good go to heaven?" I was so young at the time, I couldn't really answer the question. She said very vehemently, "so I'm a non-christian, so I'm not good?" These questions really haunted me and I had no clear cut answer. I soon realize that being Christian and following Christ does not make you a perfect person. Nor does it make your actions more golden. Believing in Christ is all about accepting this universal truth - that we are flawed No matter how hard we try, or how much "good" we do in the world, we will never overcome the nature of that which is human.. We have all fallen short of God's standard of "good". So what is the Gospel exactly? The good news is the fact that Jesus has come to take humanity's sin, and to bear it, to die with it, and to defeat it. When one person accepts Jesus, they are made righteous through worship, not by moral action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fathoms Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Umm find me someone who is perfect. Find me someone who hasn't done a single bad thing in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The power disparity between the creator and the created is infinite. This means that the responsibility disparity must necessarily be infinite too. For god to arbitrarily decide on a standard of good that is impossible to practice is the classic tactic of a tyrant who wants to deflect attention away from his own actions. Flooding the planet, sending people who do not worship him to hell. These are things that if I were to do them would brand me as the most immoral bastard in the history of history. So if god wants me to grovel at his knees trying to justify my existence to him than he needs to first knock on my door and explain himself. He has my address, he has my phone number, and I am an entirely approachable person. But if he is going to be a dick about it and rely on the viral marketing tactics of his followers than he's already told me everything I need to know about his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 My post had nothing to do with perfection. I mentioned apples and you responded with a request about oranges. Try to stick to the point of my post instead of veering off into points about unattainable perfection. By the way, even Jesus wasn't perfect and apparently he was God. Try reconciling that one...after you respond to my previous post of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 So, love and worship me or rot in eternal damnation?? .. a truly benevolent God, indeed .. some choice .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 You had everything to talk about good and bad. Your post argued that the church brainwashes people to think we are bad. Well sir, argue the fact that we aren't flawed. Which the definition of 'not flawed' is the definition of 'perfect'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 My post had to do with being 'created' 'sick', not about being 'perfect'.....as in the ridiculous belief of original sin, which if 'uncured' is met with an eternity of pain, suffering and torture.....again, according to the prognosis of the institution called Christianity, where the patients run the asylum. You're arguing something that you've come by way of your own misunderstanding and mis-comprehension. I'd never suggest that a human was 'perfect' in any way. We are a product adaptation...something that is hardly a perfect process and no human being is born with the ability to never make a mistake regarding anything. What you don't seem to be able to wrap around your head is that according to the fairy tales, which are man-made, your creator created you 'ill'....and then said that if you want to be rid of that illness and live with him later on, you have to get rid of your illness, because he doesn't want any ill-folk living with him. Now think about that, he purposefully made you ill and then orders you to get well from the disease that he inflicted upon you. And I rightly say he inflicted it upon you because it stands to reason that he knew that free-will would end up making you sick, and even 'knowing' that, as he is omniscient, he let your fore-bearers become ill and let the rest of their children be born ill for ever after.....even though he set you up to become ill and knew that's how it would play out, because he created us....which i'm sure he took some time to consider in the planning process, aside from all the design flaws inherent in the human body and mind, of course.....not to mention those he created homosexual, but then opposes. What a guy! Like I said, he's a sadist, for the very reasons I mentioned. He's either incompetent as a creator and a designer or he purposefully created us this way to watch us suffer, even after 'saving' us by scapegoating his only son, which by the way was another flawed effort on his part because had he created us differently from the start, he wouldn't have had to sacrifice his son. Your god is a sadist that either enjoys the suffering helped in creating, or he's incompetent for starting it without being able to do anything about it, except to sit by and watch as generation after generation of his creation, especially the most innocent of them, suffer unnecessarily. The fact that you find that praise-worthy or something to glorify and brings you joy makes you a masochist. So, if you want to talk about that, by all means, the floor is yours pastor dajusta. I wanted to make a few points about your response to this poster's post. 1) On passing judgement....judge not, lest ye be judged....Matthew 7:1......what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we are to be judged by our 'creator' and one of our 'gifts' is free-will, then we by all means are able and have the right to use that gift to judge our creator's work based on the character and ability of the creator itself. If he doesn't want us judging him, then he shouldn't judge us. Doing so wouldn't only open him up to charges of hypocrisy....which would be a flaw in him, which would only show us that he is himself an imperfect being and further cast him as a hypocrite for judging and sentencing us based on our imperfections and flaws, all the while being flawed and imperfect himself. 2) If God can't be anything but himself, then who is he to judge us as being anything but what he created us to be?? We are flawed and imperfect....exactly as he made us to be. If he wants to hold us accountable for his design, then he should hold himself accountable to us for being such a poor or thoughtless designer. 3) Standing by and watching 6 million Jews get slaughtered by the most vicious of his own creation is evil, because : "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it." "All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." "For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing." God accepted that evil act, and many before it and many since after....and hasn't done a goddamn thing but watch. While good men fought against atrocity, he sat there and watched and did nothing, knowing that though they fought the good fight, the good would not be able to get there in time to stop those that pursued evil. That's sadistic and truly 'sick'. Putting your creation through pain and torture even temporarily and even with the reward of eternal bliss, is still immoral and deviant....which goes to the character of your 'creator'. Face it, you've got the Stockholm syndrome bad, like a kidnapped victim who just wants to be loved and has understandably fallen in love and league with the more powerful being that initially perpetrated a crime upon you, but who you have somehow rationalized in your brain as being an act of 'salvation' and everyone else that looks to that being as a criminal are simply misguided and don't understand how much he really cares about you and loves you, because we just don't get how awesome it is to be with someone like him. I dunno, maybe you're moreso like a self-deluded abused spouse rather than a kidnap victim at this stage. Either or, I suppose. 4) If God planned and created you to have free-will to follow his design, then it isn't 'free' as it is according to his will. Bottom line, if you believe you have free-will because you were ordered through your creation to have it, then you don't get that it isn't actually 'free'......because a) it isn't yours, it's given to you, and b ) it will cost you even though you didn't agree to the charges before it was given to you. You have free-will because it was given to you....because you had no choice......think about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 I argue something that is not through misunderstanding or misconception. It is a belief shared among many scholars and theists. Your argument on the other hand is something that leading skeptics don't even use remotely as an argument, and I quote you: "[God is] flawed and imperfect himself" What kind of skeptic argues this? None. Would I really argue that humanity is born ill? No. But I would argue that humanity has the potential to born ill, and in 100% of the cases, we actualize that potential. Due to free will. Following me here? BTW - way to skip the entire crux of my Holocaust point. At what point is evil not evil, half evil, or a fraction of evil? Whether if 1 Jew is slaughtered, or whether if 6 million Jews are slaughtered? This is the point against the poster's view on "most immoral bastard in history" due to seemingly little flaws. Yeah? You witnessed God work in his mysterious ways? You saw him sit in his throne and see that he has done nothing? Show me this recording of yours. Link me to God's passivity in the world? Show me by your mere human ability that you have tangible history all written down on paper. Look, Mr. Sharpshooter, it seems like you have all the criticism in the world, so let me ask you one question - If YOU were God, how would you design humanity? Robots? Or with free will? I gotta hear this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 It is extremely arrogant for you, a finite being, to have passed judgement on a supreme being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Just another example of how religious dogma brainwashing people and how it gets in the way of actual knowledge. I'm not sure who I pity more, the man, or his child. Ontario Dad Wants Option Of Pulling Kids From Class Based On Religious Beliefs TORONTO - An Ontario father is taking his children's school board to court in a bid for advance notice on lesson plans that might contradict his Christian beliefs. Steve Tourloukis is asking Ontario's Superior Court to force the Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board for a heads-up when topics such as marriage, family and sexuality will be discussed in his kids' classes. It's discriminatory to deny him the religious accommodation when it is provided to people of other faiths, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Tourloukis said Monday at a news conference. He dismissed the idea of educating his children — a son in Grade 4 and a daughter in Grade 1 — in the separate school system. "Why should I send my children to another school?" he said. "I pay my taxes...I don't see why somebody else's discrimination should cause me, should influence where I send my children. Not in a free country. Not in Canada." Tourloukis noted that he teaches his children that everyone is made in the image of God and to love people who are different from them, but said this isn't about his religious beliefs. "This is about a parent's right to know what is being taught in schools," he said. "My children are my own. I own them. They don't belong to the school board." The Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board said a spokesperson would be available later Monday to comment. Education Minister Laurel Broten said she believes in the province's "evidence-based curriculum" and it must be taught across Ontario. "We are confident and stand by our curriculum and all boards across the province have religious accommodation protocols that they put in place at a local level," she said. NDP Leader Andrea Horwath said decisions about accommodations are up to the local school boards. "That's why we have independently elected trustees," she said. "It remains their purview to make those decisions and to determine what the board can handle as far as accommodating the needs of parents and the kids." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I am a skeptic. I argue that he is flawed and imperfect by the imperfections of his creations. I don't need any other skeptic else to argue this in order for me to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajusta Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 But is it not arrogant to lecture others about something of which you have no facts about? I assume you know as little about an intelligent design or a supreme being as I do but if I'm wrong, what is the source of your knowledge that gives you the right to preach about God to your congregation, or us for that matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Those leading skeptics try to debunk what Christians say about God. None of them come to the conclusion that God is flawed. Their conclusion is "God doesn't exist". Skeptics attempt to find flaws that make the Christian logic crumble. You see, what Sharp tried to do is conclude that God is flawed. If you can see in any and all of his posts, he is losing it. Sharpshooter either believes in two things: a) that God does exist, but he is flawed therefore he should not be worshipped.. or b ) I can't know if God exists because he is flawed, therefore I can't worship something I don't know. TBH he never revealed what he believes in... Yet he speaks with so much conviction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Those leading skeptics try to debunk what Christians say about God. None of them come to the conclusion that God is flawed. Their conclusion is "God doesn't exist". Skeptics attempt to find flaws that make the Christian logic crumble. You see, what Sharp tried to do is conclude that God is flawed. If you can see in any and all of his posts, he is losing it. Sharpshooter either believes in two things: a) that God does exist, but he is flawed therefore he should not be worshipped.. or b ) I can't know if God exists because he is flawed, therefore I can't worship something I don't know. TBH he never revealed what he believes in... Yet he speaks with so much conviction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jai604 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Here is where I disagree with you. There is sufficient evidence of a maker, a supreme God, an omnipotent being. That's for another discussion though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Feel free to enlighten us with this evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Feel free to enlighten us with this evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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