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Canada Closes Embassy in Iran, Expels Iranian Diplomats from Canada


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#91 taxi

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:00 AM

Some people as in Netanhayu and the rest of the Israeli government? Iranian-Canadians don't like this move, especially the ones that visit Iran.


You speak for all Iranians? Many Iranians in Canada are refugees who had to flee their homeland as a result of the revolution. The truth is the Iranian community is pretty split about the move. Some welcome it, as they hate the regime. Others fear it could create difficulties for people wishing to travel between Iran and Canada:

http://www.canada.co...9247/story.html
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#92 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:04 AM

This was just a thought experiment mostly. It had already been established that Iran would face the full capabilities of NATO should it ever be struck by Iran, and also, Canada isn't a country capable of launching a war thousands of kilometers away on foreign territory alone either.

The case by others was made that they believe the Canadian military would be no match for the Iranian one.

I disagreed, and tried to show that they'd be more than capable of being a match, they'd be victorious, based on their air superiority alone.

So, this is really a scenario where you put Canada vs Iran on some fictional map and let them go at it with the equipment and the men they have and see who wins. In my mind you bring up some very good points about being a volunteer army versus a member of a mandatory serviced one. Other things like funding plays a very important role as it leads to better training, better equipment, more supplies......all things vital to winning a battle.

If Canada had to attack Iran, the logistics of sending our forces would be very challenging as we don't necessarily have the equipment to haul all the troops there, nor a place to stage from. However, if it was a head to head battle, i'm confident that Canada would prevail.


A man must have his dreams .. :rolleyes:
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#93 taxi

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:04 AM

NM

Edited by taxi, 08 September 2012 - 11:04 AM.

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#94 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:10 AM

A man must have his dreams .. :rolleyes:


How so?
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#95 Special Ed

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:16 AM

NM


All the Iranians I know. Quite a few, including my gfs family. All very much dislike the regime. All have told me that at times their houses hAve been invaded without warning. That family members are taken without reason or known length of time.

Imagine if our police could kick down your door at 3am take your brother and father. Go through all personals and leave your home in shambles. All without warrant or reason. When you hear these things you become a little more appreciative of what we have here eh.
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#96 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:19 AM

How so?


We could each spell out various scenarios where either side "may" dominate .. so it becomes moot .. 3.8 million troops versus 128,000, half of those being reserves .. technology would even it out some but if we learned anything from Iraq, it is that once you need to put people on the ground and in harms way, it changes the dynamic completely .. it is like fighting forest fires .. you can bomb fires infinitum, but you need boots-on-the-ground to put the fire out .. obvious scenario is that we would have to invade them, since we initiated this "action", and we would lose ..

As far as dreams, where would a man be without his dreams .. it was my attempt to end my part of this pointless discussion .. :lol:
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#97 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:22 AM

All the Iranians I know. Quite a few, including my gfs family. All very much dislike the regime. All have told me that at times their houses hAve been invaded without warning. That family members are taken without reason or known length of time.

Imagine if our police could kick down your door at 3am take your brother and father. Go through all personals and leave your home in shambles. All without warrant or reason. When you hear these things you become a little more appreciative of what we have here eh.


That can happen in Canada too .. its just that here we have a media that just "may" publicize such acts and that tends to hold the "powers-that-be" accountable .. I just cannot imagine living in a country as oppressive as Iran or Afghanistan or Syria or a lot of other countries .. we are blessed ..
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#98 Clark Kent

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:26 AM

This was just a thought experiment mostly. It had already been established that Iran would face the full capabilities of NATO should it ever be struck by Iran, and also, Canada isn't a country capable of launching a war thousands of kilometers away on foreign territory alone either.

The case by others was made that they believe the Canadian military would be no match for the Iranian one.

I disagreed, and tried to show that they'd be more than capable of being a match, they'd be victorious, based on their air superiority alone.

So, this is really a scenario where you put Canada vs Iran on some fictional map and let them go at it with the equipment and the men they have and see who wins. In my mind you bring up some very good points about being a volunteer army versus a member of a mandatory serviced one. Other things like funding plays a very important role as it leads to better training, better equipment, more supplies......all things vital to winning a battle.

If Canada had to attack Iran, the logistics of sending our forces would be very challenging as we don't necessarily have the equipment to haul all the troops there, nor a place to stage from. However, if it was a head to head battle, i'm confident that Canada would prevail.


This was the closest thing to what I had in mind so I'll just quote it.

Canada would lose a war with Iran if it were to attack based on the real geographical locations. Just like Iran would lose if they were to attack Canada.

Iran's military, as repeatedly stated by the Iranian government is meant as a deterrent to foreign attack. (Whether that is a lie, and they are trying to expand to the point where they can launch full scale attacks is irrelevant.)

If Canada were to send carriers there (not sure if, or how many they have), Iran would launch surface to sea missiles, which it has plenty of. If they were to invade with ground forces, they would get absolutely destroyed.

Now if they were put on a magical map, I believe Canada's air supremacy as you put it doesn't out class Iran's enough to be an easy victory, but they would win in the end. The hard part would be when Iran invades Canada via the ground. Not to mention Iran actually has a pretty large missile arsenal which would do a lot of damage.

But in that magical scenario, Iran vs Canada is a lot like Iran vs Israel.

Iran would lose just because Canada is so much larger. Just like Israel would (unless they use nukes).

Either way, it's a moot point, in reality, neither is capable of waging a successful war against the one. Especially when you consider NATO would get involved.
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#99 jmfaminoff

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:27 AM

Canadian military has an overabundance of NCOs and junior officers. This is deliberate. Should a rapid increase in the ranks be needed due to a national defence crisis, we can expand quickly at the unit, company, division, and brigade levels.

However, air superiority is our game. And I know that our Norad partners would have our backs should we ever be attacked.
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#100 jmfaminoff

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:30 AM

This was the closest thing to what I had in mind so I'll just quote it.

Canada would lose a war with Iran if it were to attack based on the real geographical locations. Just like Iran would lose if they were to attack Canada.

Iran's military, as repeatedly stated by the Iranian government is meant as a deterrent to foreign attack. (Whether that is a lie, and they are trying to expand to the point where they can launch full scale attacks is irrelevant.)

If Canada were to send carriers there (not sure if, or how many they have), Iran would launch surface to sea missiles, which it has plenty of. If they were to invade with ground forces, they would get absolutely destroyed.

Now if they were put on a magical map, I believe Canada's air supremacy as you put it doesn't out class Iran's enough to be an easy victory, but they would win in the end. The hard part would be when Iran invades Canada via the ground. Not to mention Iran actually has a pretty large missile arsenal which would do a lot of damage.

But in that magical scenario, Iran vs Canada is a lot like Iran vs Israel.

Iran would lose just because Canada is so much larger. Just like Israel would (unless they use nukes).

Either way, it's a moot point, in reality, neither is capable of waging a successful war against the one. Especially when you consider NATO would get involved.

An issue fighting Iran is the use of children. They would send them out into the foxholes, and overwhelm the position; This was a tactic used in the Iran-Iraq war. Why is this an issue? Our soldiers are noble people, they value life, and they do not shoot children.

Edited by jmfaminoff, 08 September 2012 - 11:31 AM.

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#101 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:31 AM

Adding that our "Allies" would have our backs adds apples to the orange pile and renders the whole bloody exercise pointless .. just like Russia helping them would change the dynamic .. :sadno:
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#102 jmfaminoff

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:34 AM

Adding that our "Allies" would have our backs adds apples to the orange pile and renders the whole bloody exercise pointless .. just like Russia helping them would change the dynamic .. :sadno:

The politics are complicated.
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#103 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:44 AM

The politics are complicated.


Indeed .. I'd rather play chess .. :rolleyes:
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#104 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:46 AM

We could each spell out various scenarios where either side "may" dominate .. so it becomes moot .. 3.8 million troops versus 128,000, half of those being reserves .. technology would even it out some but if we learned anything from Iraq, it is that once you need to put people on the ground and in harms way, it changes the dynamic completely .. it is like fighting forest fires .. you can bomb fires infinitum, but you need boots-on-the-ground to put the fire out .. obvious scenario is that we would have to invade them, since we initiated this "action", and we would lose ..

As far as dreams, where would a man be without his dreams .. it was my attempt to end my part of this pointless discussion .. :lol:


Of course it's moot.....that's why it was being put forth as a 'thought experiment'. You know, a place where you can play out scenarios that wouldn't play out in reality, because in reality, NATO would crush Iran if there was ever an attack on Canada or Canadians perpetrated by the Iranian military.

It wasn't a pointless discussion, in that you made some assertions that the Iranian military would essentially run roughshod over the Canadian military. That may very well be, but you didn't really support that with anything, and then when countered on the fact that they have more boots on the ground, I clearly laid out why that doesn't matter in the least in a battlefield scenario or in a theater of war.

And i'm glad you brought up Iraq....because that should tell you how quickly superior air power can decimate a standing army, its equipment and any air assets and anti-aircraft capabilities through superior technology. No one suggested that Canada would attempt to occupy Iran, even if that's where the battle took place, which is why the Americans had so many casualties. We were talking about a straight up fight......'mano a mano'.....not about a fight and then an occupation and a counter-insurgency and nation building and all that crap. Usually when two actors have a street fight, the victor doesn't go and try to set up shop at the other guy's house.

I think i've made the case about Canada's air superiority advantage, but if you have a rebuttal, please feel free to let me know.


This was the closest thing to what I had in mind so I'll just quote it.

Canada would lose a war with Iran if it were to attack based on the real geographical locations. Just like Iran would lose if they were to attack Canada.

Iran's military, as repeatedly stated by the Iranian government is meant as a deterrent to foreign attack. (Whether that is a lie, and they are trying to expand to the point where they can launch full scale attacks is irrelevant.)

If Canada were to send carriers there (not sure if, or how many they have), Iran would launch surface to sea missiles, which it has plenty of. If they were to invade with ground forces, they would get absolutely destroyed.

Now if they were put on a magical map, I believe Canada's air supremacy as you put it doesn't out class Iran's enough to be an easy victory, but they would win in the end. The hard part would be when Iran invades Canada via the ground. Not to mention Iran actually has a pretty large missile arsenal which would do a lot of damage.

But in that magical scenario, Iran vs Canada is a lot like Iran vs Israel.

Iran would lose just because Canada is so much larger. Just like Israel would (unless they use nukes).

Either way, it's a moot point, in reality, neither is capable of waging a successful war against the one. Especially when you consider NATO would get involved.


On the first bolded part.....I agree, if Canada wanted to wage a battle all the way in Iran, it would be a real challenge....however, if you meant the geography as in terrain would be an impediment, then I have to ask you, what kind of terrain does Iran possess that Canada doesn't and hasn't trained her military members in?

The second bolded part....the answer is none. And i'm ok with that, those suckers are too expensive and I wouldn't want to get into the carrier business with our tax dollars.

On the third bolded part, which air asset does Iran have that would be a match for our upgraded CF-18A Hornets, let alone one armed with some of the most advanced missile, radar, communications and other avionic technology?

Edited by Sharpshooter, 08 September 2012 - 11:57 AM.

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#105 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:49 AM

Adding that our "Allies" would have our backs adds apples to the orange pile and renders the whole bloody exercise pointless .. just like Russia helping them would change the dynamic .. :sadno:


Russia has no obligation to Iran. If Iran attacked a NATO member, Russia would not be obligated to defend her. NATO members however have an obligation to each other.

Also, Russia ain't what she used to be and wouldn't be a match for NATO either.
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#106 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:01 PM

Moot point after moot point .. Russia DOES have a vested interest in Iran, if only as an irritant to the West .. I am not knowledgeable enough about either countries air power to comment .. I accept that we have superior air power, but the discrepancy between ground forces in an all-out conflagration is staggering .. when we run out of bombs we would be screwed ..
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#107 Common sense

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:44 PM

I'm going to put it out there and say no one's going to attack Canada just because we closed our embassies. It's a futile discussion.
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#108 Trelane42

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:55 PM

There really is no point in discussing Canada’s war capability apart from the US. Culturally, linguistically, economically, genetically (founding stock anyway) and militarily we are Americans. The fact that we have a quasi independent political entity is more a quirk of history and a matter of convenience than anything else. When push comes to shove in meaningful foreign policy matters we march in step with Tel Aviv on the Potomac.

Here, Harper is being economical and apparently has decided to forego the farce of impartiality, something that Liberals would likely have entertained, before, of course, going along with it anyway. The powers that be are bent on war and experienced spokesmen for the regime, of all ostensible political stripes, know their duty.

Pity Iran doesn’t actually have nukes. As Russia, China, and to lesser extent South Korea and Pakistan have shown, it is the only way of protecting yourself against the worst of the NWO buggery.

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#109 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:33 PM

Moot point after moot point .. Russia DOES have a vested interest in Iran, if only as an irritant to the West .. I am not knowledgeable enough about either countries air power to comment .. I accept that we have superior air power, but the discrepancy between ground forces in an all-out conflagration is staggering .. when we run out of bombs we would be screwed ..


I don't know why you and others keep using the word 'moot' perjoratively to the act of raising an issue between the comparative capabilities between Iran's and Canada's militaristic 'winnability' in facing each other in a confrontation, since we have already acknowledged that this line of discussion is an abstract one, subject to discussion and question. There's no question that we aren't discussing something that has practical application or realization for us......hence once again, the reason it's a simple thought experiment, to discuss logical points and make comparisons, in order to attempt to come to some agreement or informed mutual understanding.

Anyways, Russia does have an economic interest in Iran that it's vested in, but as I said, they have no obligation to Iran for its armed defence, such as NATO member countries have to the defence of any one of its own, should they be attacked.

I'm glad that you acknowledge that Canada has 'air superiority' over Iran, just as I acknowledge that Iran has numerical troop superiority over Canada. The issue then, to settle, is what's vitally more important in a conflict between two formal militaries in a full combat situation? The air superiority or the ground superiority? Which of those two has the better ability to wipe the other out?

And yes, it's a moot question....however it's one that seems to be in dispute between us, so it's one that's open to question and discussion.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 08 September 2012 - 01:35 PM.

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#110 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:46 PM

I don't know why you and others keep using the word 'moot' perjoratively to the act of raising an issue between the comparative capabilities between Iran's and Canada's militaristic 'winnability' in facing each other in a confrontation, since we have already acknowledged that this line of discussion is an abstract one, subject to discussion and question. There's no question that we aren't discussing something that has practical application or realization for us......hence once again, the reason it's a simple thought experiment, to discuss logical points and make comparisons, in order to attempt to come to some agreement or informed mutual understanding.

Anyways, Russia does have an economic interest in Iran that it's vested in, but as I said, they have no obligation to Iran for its armed defence, such as NATO member countries have to the defence of any one of its own, should they be attacked.

I'm glad that you acknowledge that Canada has 'air superiority' over Iran, just as I acknowledge that Iran has numerical troop superiority over Canada. The issue then, to settle, is what's vitally more important in a conflict between two formal militaries in a full combat situation? The air superiority or the ground superiority? Which of those two has the better ability to wipe the other out?

And yes, it's a moot question....however it's one that seems to be in dispute between us, so it's one that's open to question and discussion.


Oh, but I so hate to fight with you .. B)
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#111 TimberWolf

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:49 PM

Do some people think Iran could invade Canada and win? They wouldn't even make it to the shore since they would all be sunk or shot down.

As for Canada invading Iran in this purely imaginative scenario where no other forces get involved? It would depend on the objectives. If Canada wanted to capture hold and keep Iran lndefinately then we would sooner or later need to leave as the cost would be too high (Much like Vietnam and Afghanistan to the Russians. If Canada's objective was to destroy the enemy into a negotiated or unconditional surrender (Allies vs Japan), I think the chances are very good. Superior tactics, equipment and firepower along with Air and Sea superiority nullifies the advantage of numbers. It's not like the days of old where two armies meet on a field.

Edited by TimberWolf, 08 September 2012 - 01:50 PM.

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I was saying Lu-Urns...

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#112 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:50 PM

Oh, but I so hate to fight with you .. B)



Friends can have disagreements and discuss them without needing to 'fight'.
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#113 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 02:11 PM

Friends can have disagreements and discuss them without needing to 'fight'.


I agree, but this feels like one of those endless "circle-jerk" arguments .. there are scenarios in which both side could win .. thank the stars it should never happen .. I do admire the Iranian people for the most part ..
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#114 Special Ed

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 02:13 PM

Do some people think Iran could invade Canada and win? They wouldn't even make it to the shore since they would all be sunk or shot down.

As for Canada invading Iran in this purely imaginative scenario where no other forces get involved? It would depend on the objectives. If Canada wanted to capture hold and keep Iran lndefinately then we would sooner or later need to leave as the cost would be too high (Much like Vietnam and Afghanistan to the Russians. If Canada's objective was to destroy the enemy into a negotiated or unconditional surrender (Allies vs Japan), I think the chances are very good. Superior tactics, equipment and firepower along with Air and Sea superiority nullifies the advantage of numbers. It's not like the days of old where two armies meet on a field.


Even during 'the days of old' when battles were faught face to face numbers meant little. Just look up Hanibals huge victories over the Romans. Using ambush,strategic planning and deception. As well they were better equipped. Then you have the Macedonians under Alex the great and his Calvary charges, throwing larger armies into disarray before being slaughtered.

There's A ton of ancient examples of smaller armies beating out larger armies all throughout history. Sparta anyone? I could go on.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

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#115 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 03:05 PM

Friends can have disagreements and discuss them without needing to 'fight'.


I believe all people should be able to have disagreements without resorting to contemptuous remarks and personal attacks .

every one on these boards are here because we share a love for the vancouver canucks , if any member of these forums came to australia i would willingly welcome them into my home , even the members who i disagree with sometimes .
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#116 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 03:18 PM

Even during 'the days of old' when battles were faught face to face numbers meant little. Just look up Hanibals huge victories over the Romans. Using ambush,strategic planning and deception. As well they were better equipped. Then you have the Macedonians under Alex the great and his Calvary charges, throwing larger armies into disarray before being slaughtered.

There's A ton of ancient examples of smaller armies beating out larger armies all throughout history. Sparta anyone? I could go on.



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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

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#117 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:15 PM

Because he doesn't care about the cause our soldiers are there for.

I keed.





so now maybe it's your turn to die kicking some ass ?
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#118 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:53 PM

I agree, but this feels like one of those endless "circle-jerk" arguments .. there are scenarios in which both side could win .. thank the stars it should never happen .. I do admire the Iranian people for the most part ..


Well, you'd better finish what you started then, cause I paid good money.
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#119 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 05:03 PM

Well, you'd better finish what you started then, cause I paid good money.


Ha ha ha .. too late laddie .. ask for a refund .. :lol:
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

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#120 Sharpshooter

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 05:21 PM

Ha ha ha .. too late laddie .. ask for a refund .. :lol:


This was not the happy ending that I had in mind.
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