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Jews, Muslims stage circumcision march in Germany


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#31 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:36 PM

I didn't say that - what I'm saying is, why can't religious people be involved in discussing these subjects - I didn't say "religion" I didn't say "religion is the only body that should be able to voice their opinion"..basically, what the person I was replying to was saying was "anyone can have their say except for religious people" - and I asked "Why"? What give them the right to dictate who can or who can't be involved. That's no different than say a religious person saying no one else has the right to decide on something.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

BTW, in case you missed the numerous threads on abortion, I'm pro choice.


I know your stand on this matter , and i admire it .

but nobody has the right to tell a woman what she should do with her unborn baby apart from the biologocal father , who i believe should be able to advise her , but in the end the choice is up to the woman herself .

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 10 September 2012 - 03:42 PM.

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#32 Buttock

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:39 PM

How did abortion get dragged into this? If you are old enough to get pregnant you are certainly old enough to make your own decision about an abortion. Parental consent should NEVER be required.

Infant circumcision is abhorrent. It's genital mutilation. Religion is no excuse. If only Canada had as much courage as some European countries to stand up to religious traditions.

I'm not asking people with religious convictions to shut up about them. I'm asking the rest of us with convictions for nobler secular ideals, like the right to sovereignty over your own body, to drown them out.

Edited by Buttock, 10 September 2012 - 03:41 PM.

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#33 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:43 PM

I didn't say that - what I'm saying is, why can't religious people be involved in discussing these subjects - I didn't say "religion" I didn't say "religion is the only body that should be able to voice their opinion"..basically, what the person I was replying to was saying was "anyone can have their say except for religious people" - and I asked "Why"? What give them the right to dictate who can or who can't be involved. That's no different than say a religious person saying no one else has the right to decide on something.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

BTW, in case you missed the numerous threads on abortion, I'm pro choice.


The reason is because a religious organization's doctrines are not reasonable grounds for deciding matters of health and reproductive rights of women, nor are they equal to secular medical grounds.
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#34 taxi

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:50 PM

Here is the best way i know to prevent STDs,
Posted Image


Not everyone uses one all the time. They are not 100% effective when used. They can break.

Condoms are the best bet when used properly, yes. Well actually the best way to protect against STDs is abstinence.
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#35 Nevlach

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:52 PM

Here is the best way i know to prevent STDs,
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We should ban life jackets!!
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#36 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:56 PM

How did abortion get dragged into this? If you are old enough to get pregnant you are certainly old enough to make your own decision about an abortion. Parental consent should NEVER be required.

Infant circumcision is abhorrent. It's genital mutilation. Religion is no excuse. If only Canada had as much courage as some European countries to stand up to religious traditions.

I'm not asking people with religious convictions to shut up about them. I'm asking the rest of us with convictions for nobler secular ideals, like the right to sovereignty over your own body, to drown them out.


Canada is far more ahead of the U.S in the way they look at circumcision nowadays, but still have a ways to go of course to catch up with some of their European counterparts. They are making strides nonetheless.

As posted in the original thread about this news story in this thread: http://forum.canucks...cision__st__210

Neonatal circumcision revisited. Fetus and Newborn Committee, Canadian Paediatric Society

Abstract


OBJECTIVE: To assist physicians in providing guidance to parents regarding neonatal circumcision.

OPTIONS: Whether to recommend the routine circumcision of newborn male infants.

OUTCOMES: Costs and complications of neonatal circumcision, the incidence of urinary tract infections, sexually transmitted diseases and cancer of the penis in circumcised and uncircumcised males, and of cervical cancer in their partners, and the costs of treating these diseases.

EVIDENCE: The literature on circumcision was reviewed by the Fetus and Newborn Committee of the Canadian Paediatric Society. During extensive discussion at meetings of the committee over a 24-month period, the strength of the evidence was carefully weighed and the perspective of the committee developed. VALUES: The literature was assessed to determine whether neonatal circumcision improves the health of boys and men and is a cost-effective approach to preventing penile problems and associated urinary tract conditions. Religious and personal values were not included in the assessment.

BENEFITS, HARMS AND COSTS: The effect of neonatal circumcision on the incidence of urinary tract infection, sexually transmitted diseases, cancer of the penis, cervical cancer and penile problems; the complications of circumcision; and estimates of the costs of neonatal circumcision and of the treatment of later penile conditions, urinary tract infections and complications of circumcision.

RECOMMENDATION: Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed.

VALIDATION: This recommendation is in keeping with previous statements on neonatal circumcision by the Canadian Paediatric Society and the American Academy of Pediatrics. The statement was reviewed by the Infectious Disease Committee of the Canadian Paediatric Society. The Board of Directors of the Canadian Paediatric Society has reviewed its content and approved it for publication.

SPONSOR: This is an official statement of the Canadian Paediatric Society. No external financial support has been received by the Canadian Paediatric Society, or its members, for any portion of the statement's preparation.

http://www.cmaj.ca/c...pe2=tf_ipsecsha


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#37 J.R.

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:57 PM

The reason is because a religious organization's doctrines are not reasonable grounds for deciding matters of health and reproductive rights of women, nor are they equal to secular medical grounds.


..and with the separation of church and state should have NO input on governance/laws regarding health/reproduction (or anything else for that matter).
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#38 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:58 PM

Not everyone uses one all the time. They are not 100% effective when used. They can break.

Condoms are the best bet when used properly, yes. Well actually the best way to protect against STDs is abstinence.



SCREW THAT :lol:
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#39 Nevlach

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:17 PM

Infant Male Circumcision and Future Health Disparities

The health benefits of male circumcision (MC) have been extensively documented in observational studies1and by randomized controlled trials in Africa showing that MC reduces heterosexual transmission of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection from women to men by 55% to 76%2- 4and provides significant protection against human papillomavirus infection.5Male circumcision is negatively associated with prostate cancer in men6and with cervical cancer in female partners of men infected with human papillomavirus.7


The positive health benefits of MC occur primarily in adulthood, yet MC performed in infancy has many advantages over delayed MC.8Infant MC carries lower risks,9heals faster,10and is less costly than adult MC.11In addition, infant circumcision provides protection at the time of sexual debut, which increases the protective effect against both prostate and penile cancers6and also averts the risk of HIV transmission due to resumption of sexual activity prior to healing.11


http://0-archpedi.ja...ticleid=1352168



The 2010 Royal Australasian College of Physicians' policy statement ‘Circumcision of infant males’ is not evidence based

The RACP's 2010 Policy Statement on infant MC is misleading, inaccurate and in places incorrect. Selective citation of references and omission of key articles that include meta-analyses and data from large RCTs are consistent with an impression of bias. Given the low risk of MC in infancy, yet a vast literature of high-quality studies attesting to the considerable, wide-ranging lifetime benefits for males and the female sexual partners of heterosexual and bisexual men, we conclude that the RACP's review lacks scientific rigour and is therefore an unsafe evidence base for policymakers. An affirmative policy statement by five prominent Fellows of the RACP and five Fellows of other medical organisations was published recently in a peer-reviewed journal on behalf of the Circumcision Foundation of Australia and since this is evidence based, it is better suited to guide policy decisions.57 The ban on elective infant MC in public hospitals in most states should be lifted. Medicare rebates should enable low-income parents to afford to have their infant sons circumcised.

http://0-onlinelibra...12.02823.x/full


Adult circumcision outcomes study: effect on erectile function, penile sensitivity, sexual activity and satisfaction.

Of the men 50% reported benefits and 38% reported harm. Overall, 62% of men were satisfied with having been circumcised.

http://0-www.ncbi.nl...pubmed/11956453



It's pretty obvious that there are benefits and there are risks but the medical literature appears to be tilted more in favour of the benefits. I'm not saying circumcision should be mandatory but I do not think it should be banned. People need to forget religion for a second and focus on if they feel the benefits out way the risks for themselves and/or their families.
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#40 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:29 PM

It's pretty obvious that there are benefits and there are risks but the medical literature appears to be tilted more in favour of the benefits. I'm not saying circumcision should be mandatory but I do not think it should be banned. People need to forget religion for a second and focus on if they feel the benefits out way the risks for themselves and/or their families.


Give me your username and password to access those articles. :P
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#41 Nevlach

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:33 PM

Give me your username and password to access those articles. :P

Haha I thought about just uploading the pdfs but I was like "no one's gonna read them...."
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#42 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:42 PM

Haha I thought about just uploading the pdfs but I was like "no one's gonna read them...."


For shame Nevsie, for shame. :sadno:

You know I at least would have. Makes it easier for me to counter. ::D
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#43 Nevlach

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:56 PM

For shame Nevsie, for shame. :sadno:

You know I at least would have. Makes it easier for me to counter. ::D

Counter what? My neutral statement that circumcision has benefits and harms? ;)
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#44 Blame Obama

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:57 PM

yeah no..
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#45 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:05 PM

Not everyone uses one all the time. They are not 100% effective when used. They can break.

Condoms are the best bet when used properly, yes. Well actually the best way to protect against STDs is abstinence.



True, but it's the 2010's. Abstinence is, unfortunately in the case of our adolescent generation, a thing of the past.

Edited by Burr2Hank2Dank2Net, 10 September 2012 - 05:05 PM.

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#46 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:08 PM

Counter what? My neutral statement that circumcision has benefits and harms? ;)


or.....

It's pretty obvious that there are benefits and there are risks but the medical literature appears to be tilted more in favour of the benefits. I'm not saying circumcision should be mandatory but I do not think it should be banned. People need to forget religion for a second and focus on if they feel the benefits out way the risks for themselves and/or their families.


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#47 Nevlach

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:14 PM

or.....

Hey the literature appears to tilt that way, just my observation after 20 minutes on PubMed. Obviously the harms could be greater...but at this point in time it doesn't look that way.
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#48 Sharpshooter

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:18 PM

Hey the literature appears to tilt that way, just my observation after 20 minutes on PubMed. Obviously the harms could be greater...but at this point in time it doesn't look that way.


Based on 20 minutes on PubMed?? I are disappoint.

Why do you think most western industrialized countries pediatric organizations are moving toward recommending that circumcision not be a routine procedure then?
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#49 Nevlach

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:23 PM

Based on 20 minutes on PubMed?? I are disappoint.

Why do you think most western industrialized countries pediatric organizations are moving toward recommending that circumcision not be a routine procedure then?

You shouldn't be, 20 minutes was about 19 more minutes than I should have spent looking around. I scanned through a couple hundred papers and I'd say the ones on benefit outnumbered the ones on risk (not even harm but just possible risks) 20:1 or more.

In answer to your question, could be from misinformation, wanting to be cautious, believing the risks out-weigh the benefits etc. Probably a lot of factors. I'm just saying that the majority of articles on PubMed were recommending it be allowed but not mandatory. As in there are risks for a lot of procedures that can pay off health wise down the road.
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#50 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:26 PM

True, but it's the 2010's. Abstinence is, unfortunately in the case of our adolescent generation, a thing of the past.


it was a thing of the past in my generation ::D
equal best natural high there is .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#51 Nevlach

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:32 PM

I don't usually like to post from google, but since most of you probably don't have access to some of the medical literature here is a recent post from August 2012:


More pediatricians endorse circumcision

http://www.news-lead...se-circumcision

Based on the recommendations from The American Academy of Pediatrics.
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#52 Lancaster

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:16 PM

As a person who has gone through the process as an adult, while in a relationship, I can say for myself that circumcision is a good thing.
Feels better, easier to keep clean and potential medical benefits (assuming they are what they say they are).

As for this topic, I don't view it as as religious issue but more of an issue of government intruding on parental rights.

While some folks view male circumcision on par with female circumcision, it's vastly different. Males at least have some medical benefits, I have yet to find anything on female ones. In fact, female circumcision is actually dangerous and detrimental to their health and enjoyment of life.

Some knowledgeable folks says it equates to losing their "manhood" or losing all feeling down there or whatever, but usually they don't know what they're talking about.
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#53 MC Fatigue

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:47 PM

I think that day is a long long time away.


i agree with you. and do so with a very heavy heart...
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