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#31 Heretic

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:10 PM

Just read this:

"Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says the deadly attack on the U.S. embassy should “shock the conscience of people of all faiths around the world.”
Clinton says the assault that killed the U.S. ambassador and three American members of his staff was committed by a “small and savage group” of militants, not by the people or government of Libya."


Repeat, the attack "was committed by a “small and savage group” of militants"...

Wasn't committed by Christianity...wasn't committed by Islam...was committed by a “small and savage group” of militants...

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#32 hockeyfan87

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:11 PM

The creator of the video was Jewish and the video was funded by individuals and companies with strong ties to Judaism.

It is my belief that the video constitutes hate speech according to, at the very least, Canadian law. At least that was the intent of the video.As in the words of the creator "Islam is a cancer, period".

If you read about Sam Becile it seems to me this level of violence was planned and predicted and that it is more right to view the video as a 5 million dollar piece of propaganda and hate speech rather than a creative and artistic freedom of expression of a Jewish perspective on Islam.

This is a tragic event and I hope support is given to the families of the victims.
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#33 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:24 PM

Sam Bacile Mystery: All We Know Is That His Film Exists


After YouTube clips of his amateurish, green-screen-heavy film "The Innocence of Muslims" or "Muslim Innocence" were translated into Arabic and led to riots in Egypt and Libya this week, Sam Bacile has become the most famous independent filmmaker in the world, despite the fact that nothing is known about his past, his roots or how he actually funded his project.

Bacile had no internet presence and was a member of no social media networks prior to this incident. There are no early casting calls or production notices for the film. Nor does the film have a page on IMDB, the film database. No actors or crew members have been named or identified, and only a couple of the film's apparent backers -- fringe figures like pastor Terry Jones, Morris Sadek of the Coptic Church and Steve Klein, a "consultant" on the film who self-released an anti-Islamic book in 2010 -- have come forward to reveal themselves.

What we know about Bacile and his film comes solely from his own mouth. During an interview he gave Tuesday from an undisclosed location, Bacile said he was an Israeli-American real estate developer who raised $5 million from 100 Jewish donors, none of whom he identified. He doesn't appear to have a California real estate license, according to a review of online real estate databases.

Using a "thick" accent, Bacile said he used 60 actors and 45 crew members and that the project was shot in 2011 over three months in California. He called Islam a "cancer" and railed on the lack of security at the American embassies. He also said he planned to go into hiding as protests escalated.

Laura Rozen, who writes the Back Channel news blog for Al-Monitor, suggested that the name Sam Bacile may be a pseudonym for someone involved with the "Egyptian Coptic diaspora." Many people on Twitter have been attempting to figure out possible anagrams for the name, in case there might be a signal there. Jeffrey Goldberg, national correspondent for the Atlantic, tweeted, "Would anyone in the Jewish Twittersphere who has ever met 'SamBacile' please speak up."

Though Bacile is a mystery, we do know a bit more about Steve Klein, who told the Associated Press on Wednesday that he was a "consultant" on Bacile's film. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, the former Marine was part of the controversial California "Church at Kawea," near Fresno, and a member of a "secretive cohort of militant fundamentalists" preparing for war against Muslims in spring 2012. He believed that California was riddled with Muslim Brotherhood sleeper cells "who are awaiting the trigger date and will begin randomly killing as many of us as they can."

Klein is currently listed as the "Secretary and Founder" of Courageous Christians United, a group that protests outside of Mormon temples, mosques and abortion clinics. Leah Nelson of the SPLC said Klein founded the group back in 1977. Multiple requests for comment from Courageous Christians United have gone unreturned, but Klein himself spoke with the Atlantic's Goldberg on Wednesday afternoon.

Klein told Goldberg that "Sam Bacile" is not a real name, nor is the man actually Israeli or Jewish. "All these Middle Eastern folks I work with have pseudonyms," Klein said. "I doubt he's Jewish. I would suspect this is a disinformation campaign." Klein also told Goldberg that only 15 people were involved in the making of the film.

"I'm taking everything about this strange and horrible episode with a grain of salt," wrote Goldberg.

Amy Lemisch, the director of the California Film Commission, which issues permits for films that shoot in the state, told The Huffington Post no permits were given to anyone by the name of "Sam Bacile," nor to any project with the title of "Muslim Innocence" or "The Innocence of Muslims." If the filmmakers shot anything on state property, they would need a permit from the commission.

"We went to our internal database field," she said, "and we searched under 'innocence' or 'Muslims,' and we did not issue a permit for it."

A film with a supposed $5 million budget -- no small change for an independent project -- and a 45-member crew would be difficult to shoot under the radar, Lemisch said.

"It means they didn't shoot on state property, a state park or a state beach," she said. "They could have shot and didn't tell anybody, or a Ranger didn't catch them. But that would be pretty hard to do without getting a permit, unless they were in the middle of the desert on private property."

It's possible the filmmakers requested permits from local commissions, though without knowing where the film was shot, it's difficult to tell. HuffPost has reached out to other local commissions in California and is awaiting comment. But judging by the film itself, most of the "desert" scenes occurred in front of a green screen, so they could have been shot anywhere.



So perhaps a Christian attempt at starting a holy-war against the Muslims by pretending to be Jewish?

I could believe that. ;)
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#34 J.R.

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:28 PM

So perhaps a Christian attempt at starting a holy-war against the Muslims by pretending to be Jewish?

I could believe that. ;)


It's a good thing none of this violence has anything to do with religion though! Right Heretic?

Edited by J.R., 12 September 2012 - 02:29 PM.

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#35 taxi

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:29 PM

The creator of the video was Jewish and the video was funded by individuals and companies with strong ties to Judaism.

It is my belief that the video constitutes hate speech according to, at the very least, Canadian law. At least that was the intent of the video.As in the words of the creator "Islam is a cancer, period".

If you read about Sam Becile it seems to me this level of violence was planned and predicted and that it is more right to view the video as a 5 million dollar piece of propaganda and hate speech rather than a creative and artistic freedom of expression of a Jewish perspective on Islam.

This is a tragic event and I hope support is given to the families of the victims.


Hate speech? Unless it incites violence it does not qualify as hate speech. Does this mean people of islamic faith are barred from making negative comments on Jewish faith, including elements of zionism? Or do the rules only apply one way?
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#36 hockeyfan87

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:35 PM

Hate speech? Unless it incites violence it does not qualify as hate speech. Does this mean people of islamic faith are barred from making negative comments on Jewish faith, including elements of zionism? Or do the rules only apply one way?


Those are your words not mine. I'm not on either side here.
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#37 Heretic

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:36 PM

It's a good thing none of this violence has anything to do with religion though! Right Heretic?


Agreed...and good thing it's not an atheist anti-religious person promoting hate towards any religion or pretending to be of a religious background just to get everyone against religion.
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#38 taxi

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:38 PM

Those are your words not mine. I'm not on either side here.


I'm genuinly curious if you think it should apply both ways or are just Jewish people banned from being critical of islamic faith?
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#39 hockeyfan87

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:44 PM

I'm genuinly curious if you think it should apply both ways or are just Jewish people banned from being critical of islamic faith?


Ideally laws should always be applied equally and not be discriminatory. Hence how Lady Justice is always represented as wearing a blindfold. So yes it should be applied both ways.
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#40 hockeyfan87

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:48 PM

I'm genuinly curious if you think it should apply both ways or are just Jewish people banned from being critical of islamic faith?


I don't know why you would even think that I would believe it should only be applied one way. I never gave any reason for you or anyone else to believe that in what I said previously.

I focused on the background and purpose behind the creator of the video because I think it will be easily overlooked in this case. It's easy to sit here and denounce murderers, ignorance, and cowardice which is what the perpetrators of the embassy attack were.

I watched the video and found it crude and without much merit. I wanted people to go look for themselves and reach their own conclusion about what the purpose of the creator was and whether it was a legitimate example of a good use of freedom of expression.

I have no ties or stakes in supporting one side over the other.
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#41 Nucks+Cup+♥

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:50 PM

Hey are you muslim? I am.

i am to
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#42 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:59 PM

He's kinda right about atheism being a religion. In that they disbelieve so much and so faithfully that in a sense the 'belief in non-belief' is religious.

imo Being agnostic is far superior to being atheist or theist. imo It's ultra-arrogant to pretend to know that a deity does or does not exist for certain, or even to promote your belief or non-belief in that deity.

It's also ultra-arrogant to assume that agnostic=atheist. It is not. However, everything can be defined according to their agenda. (eg. atheism is also a religion?)

The main disadvatage of being agnostic is that you are labelled a 'non-believer', 'skeptical' and/or 'non-committal'. These labels of course come from those groups who think they have all the answers, when they cannot possibly have any.

The main advantage of being agnostic is that things don't bother you as much. The world seems more at peace. And you can focus on getting actual answers, rather than bickering about which truths are real. Knowledge > Belief.

The vision of a near future with global peace must be agnostic. We must stop being so arrogant and start learning as a species. Otherwise, there cannot be any progression. Gene Roddenberry had probably the most-appealling vision of the future so far, and he was agnostic. He wanted us to learn, regardless of what the answers were. (And then he predicted that an atheist future after ww3 was the way to a lasting peace.)
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#43 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:03 PM

Sorry, another knock on being agnostic is the constant knowledge vs belief debate. For starters, 'knowledge is an illusion.' Matrix-style.
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#44 Heretic

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:10 PM

He's kinda right about atheism being a religion. In that they disbelieve so much and so faithfully that in a sense the 'belief in non-belief' is religious.

imo Being agnostic is far superior to being atheist or theist. imo It's ultra-arrogant to pretend to know that a deity does or does not exist for certain, or even to promote your belief or non-belief in that deity.

It's also ultra-arrogant to assume that agnostic=atheist. It is not. However, everything can be defined according to their agenda. (eg. atheism is also a religion?)

The main disadvatage of being agnostic is that you are labelled a 'non-believer', 'skeptical' and/or 'non-committal'. These labels of course come from those groups who think they have all the answers, when they cannot possibly have any.

The main advantage of being agnostic is that things don't bother you as much. The world seems more at peace. And you can focus on getting actual answers, rather than bickering about which truths are real. Knowledge > Belief.

The vision of a near future with global peace must be agnostic. We must stop being so arrogant and start learning as a species. Otherwise, there cannot be any progression. Gene Roddenberry had probably the most-appealling vision of the future so far, and he was agnostic. He wanted us to learn, regardless of what the answers were. (And then he predicted that an atheist future after ww3 was the way to a lasting peace.)


So...saying "imo Being agnostic is far superior to being atheist or theist." is not arrogant?

Just asking.
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#45 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:24 PM

Can't say for certain. ;)
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#46 Dittohead

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:32 PM

call me cruel... but I say the US just packs up and leaves the middle east and let them sort it all out themselves. Where will we get our oil from? Hey Canada, how about more trade/business then we already do!? And when a middle eastern country asks for help... "sorry, we're closed"

(yes I know this is over simplified and not researched at all... just venting frustration.)


The USA will leave when the oil is gone,until then they are there for the long haul.
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#47 Carpe Diem

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

Just read this:

"Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says the deadly attack on the U.S. embassy should “shock the conscience of people of all faiths around the world.”
Clinton says the assault that killed the U.S. ambassador and three American members of his staff was committed by a “small and savage group” of militants, not by the people or government of Libya."

Repeat, the attack "was committed by a “small and savage group” of militants"...
Wasn't committed by Christianity...wasn't committed by Islam...was committed by a “small and savage group” of militants...


of course religion itself can't commit a crime. Extreme versions of it of course, does MOTIVATE people to commit crimes, which it did in this case.
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#48 canuck_trevor16

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:41 PM

I think that the US is going sent in the NAvy seal and take out these people responsible quickly and quietly
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#49 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:57 PM

I think that the US is going sent in the NAvy seal and take out these people responsible quickly and quietly


I believe Pres. Obama has already activated the 'FAST' team (.Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team)


U.S. officials said some 50 Marines were being sent to Libya to reinforce security at U.S. diplomatic facilities in the aftermath of the attack.

The Marines are members of an elite group known as a Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team, whose role is to respond on short notice to terrorism threats and to reinforce security at U.S. embassies. They operate worldwide.

The officials who disclosed the plan to send the Marines spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.


Edited by Sharpshooter, 12 September 2012 - 04:05 PM.

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#50 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:16 PM

So...saying "imo Being agnostic is far superior to being atheist or theist." is not arrogant?

Just asking.


It is not a matter of being superior , it is accepting the fact that one does not know whether there is a god or not .
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#51 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM

I believe Pres. Obama has already activated the 'FAST' team (.Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team)


U.S. officials said some 50 Marines were being sent to Libya to reinforce security at U.S. diplomatic facilities in the aftermath of the attack.

The Marines are members of an elite group known as a Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team, whose role is to respond on short notice to terrorism threats and to reinforce security at U.S. embassies. They operate worldwide.

The officials who disclosed the plan to send the Marines spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7bDUhxNEDg


If there are any women in that team then they probably have more chance of being raped by their fellow soldiers than being killed by the enemy , i watched this documetary on sbs last night , blew me away












The Invisible War: Rape in the US Military


From the Oscar-nominated filmmaker Kirby Dick comes The Invisible War, a groundbreaking investigative documentary about one of America’s most shameful and best kept secrets: the epidemic of rape within the U.S. military.

The film paints a startling picture of the extent of the problem—today, a female soldier in Iraq and Afghanistan is more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire. The number of assaults in the last decade alone is believed to be in the hundreds of thousands














Focusing on the powerfully emotional stories of multiple rape victims, The Invisible War is a moving indictment of the systemic cover-up of military sex crimes, chronicling the women’s struggles to rebuild their lives and fight for justice. It also features hard-hitting interviews with high-ranking military officials and members of Congress that reveal the perfect storm of conditions that exist for rape in the military, its long-hidden history, and what can be done to bring about much-needed change.

At the core of the film are often heart-rending interviews with the rape survivors themselves—people like Kori Cioca, who was beaten and raped by her supervisor in the U.S. Coast Guard; Ariana Klay, a Marine who served in Iraq before being gang raped by a senior officer and his friend, then threatened with death; and Trina McDonald who was drugged and raped repeatedly by the military police on her remote Naval station in Adak, Alaska. And it isn’t just women; according to one study, one percent of men in the military—a staggering 20,000 soldiers—were sexually assaulted in 2009.

And while rape victims in the civilian world can normally turn to an impartial police force and justice system for help, rape victims in the military must turn to their command—a move that is all too often met with foot-dragging at best, and reprisals at worst. Many rape victims find themselves forced to choosebetween speaking up and keeping their careers. Little wonder that only eight percent of military sexual assault cases are prosecuted
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#52 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:33 PM

Not sure about you, but I believe that 'knowing whether or not there is a God' is tops on my human arrogance scale.

Perhaps 'knowing the meaning of the universe'? Or 'knowing the meaning of life?' Or 'knowing the extent of infinity?'

Attributing a set of beliefs - rules - to any of these fundamental questions revolving around our existence at this point is folly. When you think about it in this scale, we know very, very little as a species. imo Being agnostic can only promote growth as a species.

Albert Einstein was also agnostic. He'd be the first to admit that we as a species aren't ready to learn about the secrets of the universe at this point. And at this rate, it's getting worse, not better. I hope that turns around.
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#53 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:01 PM

Libya Protests Spurred By Anti-Muslim Film Whose Maker's Religion Is Widely Reported But Little-Known


The day following an attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi that killed the U.S. Ambassador to Libya J. Christopher Stevens and three other Americans, news reports have focused on a 14-minute trailer for an obscure anti-Muslim film that mocks the Prophet Muhammad and was the target of protests outside the consulate before it was raided.

U.S. officials have told news outlets that the attackers may have planned the killings in advance, using the the protest over the video as a diversion. But questions have continued over the film, titled "Innocence of Muslims," that spread via YouTube and Middle Eastern media ahead of the attacks and depicts the Islamic prophet as a womanizer, a pedophile and a homosexual, among other characterizations.

Some questions about the movie, the shabby trailer for which was deconstructed by reporters on Wednesday, have been answered. Actors from the film claim they had no idea they were participating in an anti-Muslim movie and thought it was about ancient Egypt. They also said that their voices had been dubbed over. Indeed, the video's audio track indicates that there was dubbing.

But it's still unclear who made the film -- and questions have lingered around the filmmaker's religion. While news reports have said he is Jewish, evangelical or hinted at him possibly being Coptic Christian or Muslim, the truth about who made the film and that person's religious background is still a mystery.

Initial reports from the Associated Press and the Wall Street Journal named the filmmaker as Sam Becile, identified as a Israeli Jewish real estate developer based in California. "Islam is a cancer," the AP quoted him saying.

But later, news outlets reported they could not find any public records for Becile in California and there was no history of him as a filmmaker.

The search for anyone behind the film did lead the Associated Press to interview a California man named Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, who said he was manager of the company that produced "Innocence of Muslims." Nakoula, a Coptic Christian, was previously convicted of financial crimes and court papers showed Nakoula's aliases included Nicola Bacily and Erwin Salameh, among others.

From the AP:

Nakoula denied he directed the film and said he knew the self-described filmmaker, Sam Bacile. But the cellphone number that AP contacted Tuesday to reach the filmmaker who identified himself as Sam Bacile traced to the same address near Los Angeles where AP found Nakoula.


Israeli authorities also told reporters that they had no record of Bacile. The Atlantic quoted a Christian anti-Muslim activist, Steve Klein, who said he was a consultant on the film and claimed Bacile was a pseudonym. He also said Bacile was not Israeli or Jewish.

"Nobody is anything but an active American citizen. They're from Syria, Turkey, Pakistan, they're some that are from Egypt. Some are Copts but the vast majority are evangelical," Klein told the Atlantic, describing the 15 people he estimated to have been involved in producing the film.

Some in the Jewish media breathed a sigh of relief.

"So we're not to blame after all," tweeted Jane Eisner, editor of The Forward, a popular New York-based Jewish newspaper. The initial Muslim-Jewish conflict narrative "served to set up the dichotomy between good and evil, between Israel, on the one hand, and the Islam on the other," Adina Holtzman, assistant director of research at the Anti-Defamation League, told the paper.

Adding another twist to the story, Gawker interviewed an actress from the film, Cindy Lee Garcia, who said Bacile was an Egyptian. According to the article, Garcia said "Bacile had white hair and spoke Arabic to a number of 'dark-skinned' men who hung around the set." The filming occurred last July, and Garcia was involved for three days.

Most Egyptians are Muslim, but the country has a significant Christian minority, the Copts, who have endured a history of persecution. One Copt, Morris Sadek, has taken credit for uploading the film online and translating it to Arabic for Middle Eastern viewers.

Sadek, who lives in the United States and leads the U.S.-based National Coptic Assembly, said in an interview with Reuters that he supported the film because it included a scene about persecution of Copts and that he did not think it was offensive to Islam.

Protests over the film have also broken out in Cairo, where demonstrators jumped over the wall of the U.S. Embassy and tore down the American flag.

But was "Innocence of Muslims" created by a Jew, an evangelical, a Muslim, a Copt or a person of another faith?

Right now, nobody knows.
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#54 hockeyfan87

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:08 PM

Well I guess the plot thickens. In any case I should have known better than to take the first few media reports at face value. The movie might be obscene but that is not justification for the actions of the mob in Libya. I'll be interested to wait and see what the actual story is behind the creation of the movie once the facts untangle them from the misinformation that's being put out there.
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#55 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:10 PM

Heck, there isn't even proof on whether or not Muhammed was all those things.

Forget about knowing God. We can't even get our prophets right. And they were around a relative microsecond ago.

When we put so much energy into such trivial bs, i'm sure God is laughing at us. If he exists. And if he cares about the grain of sand that is our entire existence.

Thank God there were prophets around to set us straight, eh?
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#56 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:10 PM

We should also remember and honour the reportedly 10 Libyans that were killed trying to protect the U.S. embassy workers.
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#57 hockeyfan87

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:12 PM

Heck, there isn't even proof on whether or not Muhammed was all those things.

Forget about knowing God. We can't even get our prophets right. And they were around a relative microsecond ago.

When we put so much energy into such trivial bs, i'm sure God is laughing at us. If he exists. And if he cares about the grain of sand that is our entire existence.

Thank God there were prophets around to set us straight, eh?


I'd consider myself agnostic but don't really understand why you're posting this stuff in this thread (even if I agree with it). There is another thread where a religion, atheism, agnostic discussion is going on. This is a current event.
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#58 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:14 PM

A world of peace starts with a secular middle east.
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#59 hockeyfan87

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:15 PM

We should also remember and honour the reportedly 10 Libyans that were killed trying to protect the U.S. embassy workers.


I wish they were given more attention but the mainstream media is more focused on how Mitt Romney lies and responds to the event instead of what actually happened in Libya. Even if 1,000 Libyans died trying to protect them I fear that this will unfortunately colour the minds of the masses and leave Obama and others with no choice but to act very forceful. Acting wise is seemingly not permitted.
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#60 Standing_Tall#37

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:20 PM

There will never be world peace so long as there is more than 1 religion, there would never be free will if there was only 1 religion. I think there is only 2 options when it comes to the middle east 1) let them be and move out of the area(hopeing to avoid the inevitable conflict. 2) wipe them off the map, before they get great war technology
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