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Ancient Papyrus Reveals Early Christians Belief That Jesus Was Married


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#61 Humble Rodent

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:22 PM

Matt Dillahunty. Atheist. Here's a guy who preaches his beliefs ('words of wisdom'), has tons of followers, has a radio show focusing on religion, has an internet site that broadcasts his fanatical views on religion, talks A LOT about Jesus, etc.

Sounds like an ordained minister to me.

Oh wait, he is an ordained minister. http://stephenunfilt...rchive.html?m=1

Let's face it, Atheism is a religion, folks.

Smell the hypocrisy.

Calling atheism a religion is like saying not speaking German is a language. Atheism is the disbelief in god, anything else is extra.
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#62 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:24 PM

LOOK WHAT JESUS DID.

LOOK WHAT JESUS DID.

LOOK WHAT JESUS DID.
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#63 Humble Rodent

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:24 PM

Isn't there a lack of contemporary evidence for Jesus in the first place? Some of the big names of Atheism make this claim and I haven't really heard any Christians rebuttal. Either because it's true or they don't know what contemporary means. Then again not understanding what something means or how something works hasn't stopped them from arguing against it. As Dillahunty says (I quote him a lot because the guy knows his 'stuff') "There is not a single contemporary account of Jesus. How can a man of his popularity live without being documented by a single person living at the time? Frankly, I don't care if Jesus existed or not, it's irrelevant to me, but it raises serious questions about him."

David Fitzgerald has a great book on the existence of Jesus called nailed. I'm pretty sure you can find a free pdf of it if you're interested.
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#64 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:24 PM

Revealed as forgery by Alin Suciu, an expert in papyrology.

There have been no tests at all yet, let lone any by Alin Suciu.

Others claim, 'well we didn't know of it before, so it must be a forgery.' Hmmm... Scientific.
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#65 Heretic

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:27 PM

There have been no tests at all yet, let lone any by Alin Suciu.

Others claim, 'well we didn't know of it before, so it must be a forgery.' Hmmm... Scientific.


Or others say "see - this is proof that Jesus was not God", or that "Mary wasn't a virgin"...etc...etc...
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#66 Nevlach

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:31 PM

It's kinda funny that a lot of skeptics say things like "How do we know Jesus existed there aren't enough sources?!" or "Can we really trust the gospels??"

And then one line shows up from 200 years after Jesus died that says "My wife..." and now a ton of them are like "Haha Jesus was married!"
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#67 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:34 PM

Calling atheism a religion is like saying not speaking German is a language. Atheism is the disbelief in god, anything else is extra.

The belief in there being no God still qualifies as a belief. And this belief system is enough to center a religion around. Esp. when it's becoming organized.

The fact that atheists have started an official church of atheism and now have thousands of ordained ministers, including some very prominent atheists? C'mon... You don't look like an organized religion and act like one and still not get to be called one.
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#68 WHL rocks

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:38 PM

Putting miracles aside and any refences to that, you don't think at least Jesus the man ever existed?

I'm curious how you came to that conclusion if that's what you mean.


Not that I am on either side of the debate but....

Many mythical Gods from ancient times have the same story as Jesus. The story of being born on Dec 25th, being born to a virgin, 3 holy men, star in the east, performed miracles, turned water to wine, betrayed, died for 3 days and resurrected is shared by many ancient gods who came before Jesus.

Egyptian God Horus, Indian Krishna, Persian Mithra and many more have same stories as Jesus but they pre date Jesus.

Ancient people worshipped the Sun. Jesus has the exact same story as other Sun Gods who came before him.
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#69 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:39 PM

Or others say "see - this is proof that Jesus was not God", or that "Mary wasn't a virgin"...etc...etc...

It's those discussions that need to be headed off at the pass for the betterment of organized Christianity. Thus, the need for 'experts' to jump to conclusions about authenticity.

Panic?
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#70 Nevlach

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:42 PM

Not that I am on either side of the debate but....

Many mythical Gods from ancient times have the same story as Jesus. The story of being born on Dec 25th, being born to a virgin, 3 holy men, star in the east, performed miracles, turned water to wine, betrayed, died for 3 days and resurrected is shared by many ancient gods who came before Jesus.

Egyptian God Horus, Indian Krishna, Persian Mithra and many more have same stories as Jesus but they pre date Jesus.

Ancient people worshipped the Sun. Jesus has the exact same story as other Sun Gods who came before him.

Oh I hope Zeitgeist wasn't your source for that :P
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#71 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:46 PM

Calling atheism a religion is like saying not speaking German is a language. Atheism is the disbelief in god, anything else is extra.


Sign language is a language :P

Seriously though, atheism is an assertion of no belief. That right there is a system of belief. It's undeniable.

There have been no tests at all yet, let lone any by Alin Suciu.

Others claim, 'well we didn't know of it before, so it must be a forgery.' Hmmm... Scientific.


In the world of manuscripts and papyrus fragments, the experts know best.

Stumbling onto a piece of manuscript, that has no context, no origin, and even with the finder of the source ANONYMOUS at best, gives clear pointers to the experts to stay away from such bogus claims. In the world of selling/buying fragments, it is identified to be another hoax for quick cash.

More on its forgery: Hany Sadak, the director general of the Coptic Museum in Cairo, said the fragment’s existence was unknown to Egypt’s antiquities authorities until news articles this week.
“I personally think, as a researcher, that the paper is not authentic because it was, if it had been in Egypt before, we would have known of it and we would have heard of it before it left Egypt,” he said.

Edited by dajusta, 20 September 2012 - 12:47 PM.

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#72 WHL rocks

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:51 PM

Oh I hope Zeitgeist wasn't your source for that :P


I grew up knowing the story of Krishna and Mithra. I knew their story before I ever heard of Jesus.

Edit: As a matter of fact the followers of Hinduism still worship the sun. Every morning they make offerings of water to the Sun God, the practice in known as argyam.

Edited by WHL rocks, 20 September 2012 - 12:54 PM.

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#73 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:57 PM

Not that I am on either side of the debate but....

Many mythical Gods from ancient times have the same story as Jesus. The story of being born on Dec 25th, being born to a virgin, 3 holy men, star in the east, performed miracles, turned water to wine, betrayed, died for 3 days and resurrected is shared by many ancient gods who came before Jesus.

Egyptian God Horus, Indian Krishna, Persian Mithra and many more have same stories as Jesus but they pre date Jesus.

Ancient people worshipped the Sun. Jesus has the exact same story as other Sun Gods who came before him.


It's a common argument but one that is made by uninformed skeptics.

Krishna was never born of virgin birth. Her mother gave birth to 7 other children before Krishna.

Many of the prophecies of Jesus were written 1500 - 500 BCE, not just after 33 AD, so actually the prophecies of Jesus predated most of the alleged accounts.

What's more important is that the accounts of other gods had their stories added and modified after the story of Christ to make theirs suspiciously similar to the story of Christ.

If you do more research, you will find out that the story of Christ is unique to the core, while only superficially similar at best.

Edited by dajusta, 20 September 2012 - 12:58 PM.

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#74 WHL rocks

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:49 PM

It's a common argument but one that is made by uninformed skeptics.

Krishna was never born of virgin birth. Her mother gave birth to 7 other children before Krishna.

Many of the prophecies of Jesus were written 1500 - 500 BCE, not just after 33 AD, so actually the prophecies of Jesus predated most of the alleged accounts.

What's more important is that the accounts of other gods had their stories added and modified after the story of Christ to make theirs suspiciously similar to the story of Christ.

If you do more research, you will find out that the story of Christ is unique to the core, while only superficially similar at best.


To the contrary, having lived in that part of the world I am well informed about eastern religions. Even though I am not hindu, I am familiar with the religion. Particularly Mahabharat ,Ramyan and somewhat familiar with Gita.

Krishna was born to Devaki without sexual intercourse 3000 years before Jesus was born. She was found to be pure and selected to be mother of a God.

The stories of ancient Sun Gods are similar, very similar. All may not be born to virgins and all may not have turned water to wine but the basic plot of the story is very similar.

I strongly disagree with your comment that other religions changed their stories to fit with Jesus story.
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#75 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:56 PM

Next thing we know Jesus is going to turn out to have been female...


Long hair, some facial hair, got nailed by some men...yeah i'd say that opens the door to the possibility that he was a Middle-Eastern woman.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 20 September 2012 - 01:56 PM.

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#76 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:59 PM

It's kinda funny that a lot of skeptics say things like "How do we know Jesus existed there aren't enough sources?!" or "Can we really trust the gospels??"

And then one line shows up from 200 years after Jesus died that says "My wife..." and now a ton of them are like "Haha Jesus was married!"


Oh, i'm sorry, was that piece of papyrus authenticated yet?

For all we know, it could have been part of the fictional first draft of the Jesus character.
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#77 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:03 PM

To the contrary, having lived in that part of the world I am well informed about eastern religions. Even though I am not hindu, I am familiar with the religion. Particularly Mahabharat ,Ramyan and somewhat familiar with Gita.

Krishna was born to Devaki without sexual intercourse 3000 years before Jesus was born. She was found to be pure and selected to be mother of a God.

The stories of ancient Sun Gods are similar, very similar. All may not be born to virgins and all may not have turned water to wine but the basic plot of the story is very similar.

I strongly disagree with your comment that other religions changed their stories to fit with Jesus story.


Show me the scripture that verifies your claims. Also, show that much scholarly research has authenticated all of its scripture to be genuine for its era. And while you are at it, show me how the method of translation is done from its original language to English.

The Christian bible is scrutinized with the highest degree of textual criticism. In order for me to believe what you claim about Krishna, I need the same level of scrutiny.

Edited by dajusta, 20 September 2012 - 02:07 PM.

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#78 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:04 PM

Oh, i'm sorry, was that piece of papyrus authenticated yet?

For all we know, it could have been part of the fictional first draft of the Jesus character.


You're missing the point. Atheists flip flop all the time on grounds which are most convenient to them.
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#79 J.R.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:13 PM

You're missing the point. Atheists flip flop all the time on grounds which are most convenient to them.


I have neither flipped nor flopped on anything. Convenient or otherwise.

The Bible and any of these papyrus scrolls etc are all a very nice collection of fables and stories. Nothing less, nothing more.

If anything, you should look at the hypocrisy of people dedicating themselves to a bunch of stories in oft-rewritten for convenience, ancient book and when things like the papyrus come out, denouncing them for a lack of evidential truth because they don't match their existing stories lacking evidential truth :rolleyes:

Biblical pot meet biblical kettle indeed.

Edited by J.R., 20 September 2012 - 02:16 PM.

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#80 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:25 PM

I have neither flipped nor flopped on anything. Convenient or otherwise.

The Bible and any of these papyrus scrolls etc are all a very nice collection of fables and stories. Nothing less, nothing more.

If anything, you should look at the hypocrisy of people dedicating themselves to a bunch of stories in oft-rewritten for convenience, ancient book and when things like the papyrus come out, denouncing them for a lack of evidential truth because they don't match their existing stories lacking evidential truth :rolleyes:

Biblical pot meet biblical kettle indeed.


Who are you? Read the other 35 pages of the other religion thread. Don't make yourself look silly.
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#81 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:47 PM

You're missing the point. Atheists flip flop all the time on grounds which are most convenient to them.


For example?
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#82 J.R.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:01 PM

Who are you? Read the other 35 pages of the other religion thread. Don't make yourself look silly.


Why I'm J.R. of course. The only people I see making themselves looks silly are the ones dedicating their lives to the equivalent of a biblical "Santa Claus". .
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#83 dajusta

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:06 PM

For example?


It's kinda funny that a lot of skeptics say things like "How do we know Jesus existed there aren't enough sources?!" or "Can we really trust the gospels??"

And then one line shows up from 200 years after Jesus died that says "My wife..." and now a ton of them are like "Haha Jesus was married!"


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#84 J.R.

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:19 PM

I don't think those quotes are by an Atheist. Mystery solved Dajusta.
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#85 Kent.S

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:28 PM

Putting miracles aside and any refences to that, you don't think at least Jesus the man ever existed?

I'm curious how you came to that conclusion if that's what you mean.

"Jesus" body has never been discovered, there's only writting of him existing. I have yet to see any proof he actually existed.
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#86 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:29 PM

Posted ImageSharpshooter, on 20 September 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

For example?



Quote

It's kinda funny that a lot of skeptics say things like "How do we know Jesus existed there aren't enough sources?!" or "Can we really trust the gospels??"

And then one line shows up from 200 years after Jesus died that says "My wife..." and now a ton of them are like "Haha Jesus was married!"



Oh, i'm sorry, was that piece of papyrus authenticated yet?

For all we know, it could have been part of the fictional first draft of the Jesus character.


Round and round we go.


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Edited by Sharpshooter, 20 September 2012 - 04:30 PM.

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#87 Nevlach

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:35 PM

Oh, i'm sorry, was that piece of papyrus authenticated yet?

For all we know, it could have been part of the fictional first draft of the Jesus character.

Umm no?
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#88 Humble Rodent

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:45 PM

The belief in there being no God still qualifies as a belief. And this belief system is enough to center a religion around. Esp. when it's becoming organized.

The fact that atheists have started an official church of atheism and now have thousands of ordained ministers, including some very prominent atheists? C'mon... You don't look like an organized religion and act like one and still not get to be called one.

A lot of that depends on one's definition of the word belief, which has become pretty nebulous.

To steal an example from one of my favourite youtube channels, is not collecting stamps considered a hobby? Technically it could be, since not collecting stamps is an action. However it is an incredibly broad action and isn't really useful in describing what that person is actually doing.

However, the connotations of the word "atheism" have obviously changed beyond a simple lack of belief in god, and this is where atheist churches come in. Can there be churches started in the name of atheism? Obviously, there already are. However its possible to start a church/religion with any belief, regardless of what it is. Someone could start a church in the name of not collecting stamps, but that doesn't mean that not collecting stamps automatically becomes a religion. If I don't collect stamps, does that mean that I'm part of that religion?

I would consider myself to be an atheist, but I disagree with atheists starting churches (or at least in the sense that your post implies) so does that mean that I am part of a religion?
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#89 Sharpshooter

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:00 PM

Umm no?


And boom goes the dynamite. :P
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#90 Nevlach

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:14 PM

And boom goes the dynamite. :P

Not sure what your point was haha.

I posted what I did because hundreds on reddit atheism were commenting on it like it was the end of the world for theists :P
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