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Christy Clark announces plans to replace George Massey Tunnel


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#31 J.R.

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:32 AM

" From the 2008 Regional Screenline Survey (measuring traffic volumes in the Lower Mainland): . The total number of vehicles per day in 2008 was 390,972, which reflects a minor decrease of 2.6% from 401,227 vehicles in 2004; the greatest decreases were at the Deas Tunnel (-7.5%) and the Pattullo Bridge (-5.8%) …"

Just sayin.


I've been commuting through the tunnels for 14+ years. There's is definitely more, not less traffic or at the very least, congestion (which is what really matters). If there's less traffic, why is there added congestion? The tolling of the Port Mann is not going to help those numbers either.

Edited by J.R., 03 October 2012 - 10:33 AM.

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#32 inane

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:45 AM

I've been commuting through the tunnels for 14+ years. There's is definitely more, not less traffic or at the very least, congestion (which is what really matters). If there's less traffic, why is there added congestion? The tolling of the Port Mann is not going to help those numbers either.


Factual data > your anecdotes.
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#33 SukhKular

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:46 AM

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#34 Five For Fighting

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:19 PM

I am moving to Vancouver in a few months and traffic is the only thing I am not looking forward to. I have hated living in Calgary for the last 2 years but the commute is great. If one way home is congested there are 4 other ways.
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#35 J.R.

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:28 PM

Factual data > your anecdotes.


Well you tell me why it takes longer to get through the tunnel then? There IS added congestion even if their isn't actually any additional volume. So what does your "factual data" tell you about why that's happening?

And do you really think it's just my "anecdotes" that think the tunnel traffic is about to get even worse when the Port Mann tolls kick in?

Also I notice you completely skipped over the my other post on what you'd suggest for transit alternatives for that corridor. Not enough density for rapid transit or much bus service over what's currently available yet the available transit already takes 3X the time compared to driving. How do you suggest we fix that discrepancy?

Edited by J.R., 03 October 2012 - 12:29 PM.

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#36 inane

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:45 PM

Well you tell me why it takes longer to get through the tunnel then? There IS added congestion even if their isn't actually any additional volume. So what does your "factual data" tell you about why that's happening?

And do you really think it's just my "anecdotes" that think the tunnel traffic is about to get even worse when the Port Mann tolls kick in?

Also I notice you completely skipped over the my other post on what you'd suggest for transit alternatives for that corridor. Not enough density for rapid transit or much bus service over what's currently available yet the available transit already takes 3X the time compared to driving. How do you suggest we fix that discrepancy?


I have no idea why it takes you longer. Worse drivers? More people at peak times? I have no idea. I also have no idea what traffic will or will not do, I'm not a mind reader. Although I can't image too many people going so far out of their way to avoid the toll. The tunnel and Port Mann are nowhere near each other...

Skipped over? I didn't see it. Sorry for not trolling these boards hard enough for you.
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#37 J.R.

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:56 PM

I have no idea why it takes you longer. Worse drivers? More people at peak times? I have no idea. I also have no idea what traffic will or will not do, I'm not a mind reader. Although I can't image too many people going so far out of their way to avoid the toll. The tunnel and Port Mann are nowhere near each other...

Skipped over? I didn't see it. Sorry for not trolling these boards hard enough for you.


How do you suggest we correct those issues? Do you have any feasible transit alternatives for the 99 corridor?

All the people in Cloverdale/South Langley say hi. It's fairly equidistant from those areas to the bridge/tunnel. I wonder which route they'll take (never mind the people just outside those areas)? Hmm the free one or the tolled one....? :rolleyes:
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#38 inane

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:03 PM

How do you suggest we correct those issues? Do you have any feasible transit alternatives for the 99 corridor?

All the people in Cloverdale/South Langley say hi. It's fairly equidistant from those areas to the bridge/tunnel. I wonder which route they'll take (never mind the people just outside those areas)? Hmm the free one or the tolled one....? :rolleyes:


How do we correct worse drivers? Education and enforcement would be the two obvious ones.
How do we reduce people during peak times? Obviously live and/or work so you don't have to go through the tunnel, work flexible hours, work from home part time, just to name a few. No, not everyone can do that and that's not what I'm suggesting. But many can.

If you live in South Langley, go north and get on the rapid bus for free.
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#39 gurn

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:20 PM

If they create more lanes for the traffic doesn't this usually lead to more traffic?
IIRC there are/is a group espousing level rail connections.

And to whoever talked about a bridge to the island, if you live to 150 yrs old you might see it.
It is still a huge expensive proposition, think in terms of $50 billion plus.
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#40 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:56 PM

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#41 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:57 PM

Wait, what?

That stupidass tunnel needed a massive upgrade years ago. As you were.
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#42 Coda

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:14 PM

Factual data > your anecdotes.


Less Traffic (in terms of number of cars through the tunnel per day) and a commute taking longer are not mutually exclusive. If a road slows to a crawl for hours each day, like in the Massey Tunnel Bottleneck, fewer cars get through, more people divert to other routes, and the commute takes longer for everybody.

Anyway, a bigger capacity bridge between Delta and Richmond isn't going to help much unless the capacity between Richmond and Vancouver (currently the Oak and Knight Street Bridges) is also increased.
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#43 J.R.

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

Anyway, a bigger capacity bridge between Delta and Richmond isn't going to help much unless the capacity between Richmond and Vancouver (currently the Oak and Knight Street Bridges) is also increased.


NOT EVERYONE GOES TO VANCOUVER.
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#44 inane

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:30 PM

Less Traffic (in terms of number of cars through the tunnel per day) and a commute taking longer are not mutually exclusive. If a road slows to a crawl for hours each day, like in the Massey Tunnel Bottleneck, fewer cars get through, more people divert to other routes, and the commute takes longer for everybody.

Anyway, a bigger capacity bridge between Delta and Richmond isn't going to help much unless the capacity between Richmond and Vancouver (currently the Oak and Knight Street Bridges) is also increased.


Great point about Oak Street, someone else made that point a few years ago while promoting the SFPR. Who was that again?

"Kevin Falcon, who a few year’s ago, when Minister of Transportation, observed that a new tunnel would not be needed-- It would only push the congestion a few kilometres down the road to the Oak Street Bridge."

http://www.yourlibra...60218/news.html

Huh, weird.
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#45 Offensive Threat

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:39 PM

I'm not proposing all of Canada but rather something just in BC (Maybe into Alberta similar to what they have in the Alps, to connect all the small towns which attract plenty of Skiers and Snowboarders during the winter (Our biggest tourist attractions are the ski resorts).

It just gives another quicker option rather than driving everywhere, since we don't have any major airports connecting all the smaller towns and ski resorts.

We need something cheap and quick with multiple lines.



Oh all you want to do is build and maintain multiple rail lines through the Rockey mountains. That wont cost much. More than the total combined value of every ski resort you want to connect but itll be convenient.
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#46 key2thecup

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:42 PM

That's not the problem, and expanding the highway would make it worse. The problem exists because you have 2 lanes of highway traffic, combining with all the inflow/merging traffic from 72nd and nordel (so another 4 lanes for 6 total) into 3 bridge lanes. Same on the other side. You have 2 lanes of highway traffic that merge with one, then another, then two more, then another, and all have to fit onto 3 lanes on the bridge.


Yup & the 64th inflow...... holy sh$%t was it a pain in the butt today afternoon taking the Alex.
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#47 Mainly Mattias

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:40 AM

what you would never hear a man say: "I don't happen to be an engineer but tunnels don't seem to be in vogue right now."

NOT EVERYONE GOES TO VANCOUVER.


..but ..but ..we don't care about those people. :rolleyes:
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#48 J.R.

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:26 AM

..but ..but ..we don't care about those people. :rolleyes:


I picked up on the sarcasm but in all seriousness, they really should. Can't remember the exact figure but I seem to remember something like 60-something percent of commuters are inter-suburb, not downtown Vancouver centric. That's a lot of populace/voters to piss off.

Anybody remember/have that figure?
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#49 silverpig

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:36 PM

Great point about Oak Street, someone else made that point a few years ago while promoting the SFPR. Who was that again?

"Kevin Falcon, who a few year’s ago, when Minister of Transportation, observed that a new tunnel would not be needed-- It would only push the congestion a few kilometres down the road to the Oak Street Bridge."

http://www.yourlibra...60218/news.html

Huh, weird.


Not just the Oak street bridge, but Oak street itself. You go from 2 lane freeway to 3 lane (but really 1 lane) city street with traffic lights and intersections. Making the pipe fatter at the fat end doesn't help much.
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#50 Heretic

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:43 PM

How the heck does it take 10 years just to "plan and design"???

Then what - 10 more years to build the bloody thing?
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#51 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:27 PM

He can't hear you, he's posing for more pictures over in Hawaii ;)


Ziiiiiiing.
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#52 J.R.

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:19 AM

" From the 2008 Regional Screenline Survey (measuring traffic volumes in the Lower Mainland): . The total number of vehicles per day in 2008 was 390,972, which reflects a minor decrease of 2.6% from 401,227 vehicles in 2004; the greatest decreases were at the Deas Tunnel (-7.5%) and the Pattullo Bridge (-5.8%) …"

Just sayin.


I bet the traffic volume yesterday was WAY down from the norm :rolleyes:
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#53 inane

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:37 PM

I bet the traffic volume yesterday was WAY down from the norm :rolleyes:


I have no idea what you're talking about.
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#54 J.R.

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:11 PM

I have no idea what you're talking about.


Gridlock
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#55 inane

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:10 PM

Gridlock


So traffic yesterday is indicative of traffic trends over 4 years? Do you think the stats are lying? I don't know what you're getting at.
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#56 J.R.

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:17 PM

So traffic yesterday is indicative of traffic trends over 4 years? Do you think the stats are lying? I don't know what you're getting at.


Less volume is indicative of MORE congestion. Less congestion would = more volume. Lower volume is stupid reasoning for whether improvements would be helpful or not to a given crossing. Your post/data are if anything are counter to the point you were trying to make.
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#57 inane

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

Less volume is indicative of MORE congestion. Less congestion would = more volume. Lower volume is stupid reasoning for whether improvements would be helpful or not to a given crossing. Your post/data are if anything are counter to the point you were trying to make.


You're making a lot of assumptions. All I was doing was posting some info, no need to get your panties in a knot.
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#58 J.R.

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:37 PM

Panties = no knots.

Not making any assumptions. I drive that route every day. If there's lower volume it's because there's an issue with congestion. Not because of a lack of demand or whatever point you were trying to make.

The exits two/from Steveston and Highway 17 being the likeliest culprits for causing the issues as both areas continue to add development/density that increase traffic choking those merge points to and from the highway/tunnel. They can't handle the capacity and every rush hour the exits on to the highway are backed up and the exits off of the highway are backed up creating parking lots. All because of choke points there.

Not because of traffic heading to Vancouver (though surely some of it is) not because of Oak street or the bridge of the same name. Because people can't get in or out of south Delta or Richmond and it gridlocks the tunnel.
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#59 J.R.

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:41 PM

To add to that, perhaps we don't actually need a new tunnel, perhaps we need better or more merge points in and out of South Richmond/Delta. Though I think then the tunnel becomes the choke point rather than the exits so we're back to where we started with also needing a new tunnel.

Otherwise, have you come up with any ideas for mass transit in the 99 corridor yet? I'd love to be able to take a bus down Scott road in the morning and hop on a train at say highway 10 or something that went right to South Richmond but that's a good few decades off I'd wager. Until then we're going to need to do something with the current gridlock, never mind the millions more people whoe are expected to show up, some of which are surely going to need to head down the 99...

Edited by J.R., 05 October 2012 - 03:43 PM.

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#60 inane

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:57 PM

Panties = no knots.

Not making any assumptions. I drive that route every day. If there's lower volume it's because there's an issue with congestion. Not because of a lack of demand or whatever point you were trying to make.

The exits two/from Steveston and Highway 17 being the likeliest culprits for causing the issues as both areas continue to add development/density that increase traffic choking those merge points to and from the highway/tunnel. They can't handle the capacity and every rush hour the exits on to the highway are backed up and the exits off of the highway are backed up creating parking lots. All because of choke points there.

Not because of traffic heading to Vancouver (though surely some of it is) not because of Oak street or the bridge of the same name. Because people can't get in or out of south Delta or Richmond and it gridlocks the tunnel.


Like I said, I posted information. You're the one arguing it with your stories. If you don't believe the statistics, so be it.

You're saying congestion = lower volume. So are those cars disappearing? Going somewhere else?
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