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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#1051 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:17 AM

If not 20, the surely you could come up with a shorter list of names you'd rather have over Phaneuf.


Sure there are better defensemen both on talent and in cap hit. The point is that post did not have anything close to the notions of reason and/ or argument.

For the sake of opinion, any on that list, including Phaneuf, would drastically help Vancouver's cause at acquiring their first Cup, for as it stands, teams read the defense as well as an open book.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 14 November 2012 - 02:20 AM.

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#1052 WolfxHaley

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:35 AM

Sure there are better defensemen both on talent and in cap hit. The point is that post did not have anything close to the notions of reason and/ or argument.

For the sake of opinion, any on that list, including Phaneuf, would drastically help Vancouver's cause at acquiring their first Cup, for as it stands, teams read the defense as well as an open book.

Hamhuis
Edler
Garrison
Ballard
are our Dmen that shoot left like Phaneuf. I agree that he could upgrade our left side slightly, however I feel that there are other pieces that are needed more than another Left D that would be able to bring us closer to the cup.
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#1053 King of the ES

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:22 AM

Hey, and also just out of curiosity. If the Canucks and our players are so bad then why did we manage to win the presidents trophy 2 years in a row? ( including a trip to the finals in one year. )
Meanwhile all these other players who you claim great like dubnyk mps and phaneuf were all a part of teams who were out of the playoffs for good portions on the season...


I've never said the Canucks and their players are so bad. I've never said that Dubnyk or MPS are "great".

How about debating with actual things that I've brought up, instead?
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#1054 King of the ES

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:24 AM

Sensible people understand those trades are not alike at all, and it only gets worse if you add Ballard unless cap is a significant issue. Sensible people also realize King isn't going to change his mind no matter how many facts and reasonable statements are presented, so there should be a point we just all ignore his posts.


How about explaining to me why they aren't alike?

It's fair to say - at least suggest - that both Luongo (33 years old) and Lecavalier (32 years old) are past their primes. As for contracts, Lecavalier's cap hit is worse, but Luongo's is 2 years longer. So, they're probably roughly equally bad.

It's fair to say that MPS & Kassian are on a roughly equivalent level in terms of future prospects. Getting rid of Keith Ballard would be value to the Canucks. It is obviously not a winning strategy to pay $4.2M per year to a bottom-pairing defenceman who hasn't been a fit since he arrived.

You're not providing any evidence that I'm not being "sensible". A bunch of Canuck fans that overvalue their players disagreeing with me doesn't count. Let's see some real evidence.

Edited by King of the ES, 14 November 2012 - 04:33 AM.

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#1055 playboi19

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:04 AM

Luongo to the blue jays for Bautista.
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#1056 Boudrias

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:44 AM

Dion was traded because his defence got so lowsy they were afraid to play him. I live in Calgary and have watched him play his agonizingly weak brand of hockey too many times. All he does is sit around looking for an opportunity to catch someone unaware and light then up. I was lucky to witness one his greatest moments when he made the worst pinch I've ever seen in my life. Tie game, double overtime of an elimination playoff game with about 1 minute left. They have the puck in Detroit's end when it comes along the boards, Dion goes for the puck when it is clear as day the other guys going to get it. So it gets poked by him, he doesn't even stop the guy, and then doesn't even bother chasing him. Game, set, series, goodnight. Trade mode.

You just don't want guys that poor defensively on your team. You can hide a couple here or there but we already have Bieksa and Edler. Adding another defensively incapable player couldn't be a good plan.

I have seen him quit on to many plays both in Calgary and TO to want him a part of the Canucks. I felt sorry for young Schenn having to see him play and learn the game from DP.
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#1057 D-Money

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:03 AM

Roberto lost because he got pulled in the playoffs? If they are on the same team and Roberto outplays Schneider then Roberto will be the number 1. That's how things work.

Didn't Tim Thomas get relegated to backup a year before he came back to with the Cup while putting on a performance for the ages?


Schneider consistently outplayed Luongo all year.

Thomas and Lu are completely different stories. Sure, his 2008-09 season was great, but he still was an older player with only 237 games experience - and up until that season he hadn't set the world on fire.

That was also his contract year, and Boston handed him a 4-year, 5-mil per contract - which, at his age, was a 35+ contract. With him posting fairly average numbers the following season, nobody was going to take a risk on that contract. Not only did he look to be in decline, but with contracts like that, there's always the threat that the player could go bat**** crazy and stick it to the team (which happened, save for the lockout).

Sure, Thomas ended up regaining his form - but that situation is a definite anomaly.
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#1058 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:23 AM

Please. All of my stuff is backed-up perfectly fine with stats or logic. Aren't you the guy that said that Dan Hamhuis "puts up as many points as Phaneuf" - except that he never has, once?

Regarding Edmonton "stealing" Luongo from us for Paajarvi, again, I ask if you'd trade Kassian for Lecavalier. Would you do it? Really not much different.


WTF world do you live in?
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#1059 sampy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:35 AM

How about explaining to me why they aren't alike?

It's fair to say - at least suggest - that both Luongo (33 years old) and Lecavalier (32 years old) are past their primes. As for contracts, Lecavalier's cap hit is worse, but Luongo's is 2 years longer. So, they're probably roughly equally bad.

It's fair to say that MPS & Kassian are on a roughly equivalent level in terms of future prospects. Getting rid of Keith Ballard would be value to the Canucks. It is obviously not a winning strategy to pay $4.2M per year to a bottom-pairing defenceman who hasn't been a fit since he arrived.

You're not providing any evidence that I'm not being "sensible". A bunch of Canuck fans that overvalue their players disagreeing with me doesn't count. Let's see some real evidence.

In circles we go with you... Let's try again.
Lu is still a franchise player. Recently made an all star appearance, Stanley cup finals, Olympic team, Jennings trophy and presidents trophy, etc etc. Lecav is a long time removed from contributing anything worthy of his rediculous contract. Goaltenders are also known to play at a higher level later in to their careers.
As discussed numerous time with you, Kassian bring A LOT more of the intangibles than MPS. Kassian has 3 times the amount of hits in a 1/3 of the games. The only time MPS has taken off a glove is when he was reaching for a water bottle. So yes, 10/10 GMs would choose Kassian.
But like all the other posters have said you are to dense to accept any type of reasoning but your own.
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#1060 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:07 AM

Schneider for Reilly. Everyone is happy.
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#1061 King of the ES

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

WTF world do you live in?


Ah, a very intelligent retort, as always!
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#1062 King of the ES

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:38 PM

Lu is still a franchise player. Recently made an all star appearance, Stanley cup finals, Olympic team, Jennings trophy and presidents trophy, etc etc. Lecav is a long time removed from contributing anything worthy of his rediculous contract. Goaltenders are also known to play at a higher level later in to their careers.


No he isn't. Franchise players don't get summarily dumped by relatively unproven backups/young players. I don't think we'd see Chicago trade Jonathan Toews if Marcus Kruger continues to development nicely. Lu is 33 years old and has lost his job to Cory Schneider. He's a good goalie, still high-end, not a franchise player.

As discussed numerous time with you, Kassian bring A LOT more of the intangibles than MPS. Kassian has 3 times the amount of hits in a 1/3 of the games. The only time MPS has taken off a glove is when he was reaching for a water bottle. So yes, 10/10 GMs would choose Kassian.
But like all the other posters have said you are to dense to accept any type of reasoning but your own.


Your reasoning is weak, like everyone else's on this issue. It's resorting to personally insulting me, which is a pretty clear signal that your argument has no legs to stand on.

Again, I will post the NHL stats:

-Kassian: 44 GP, 4 G, 10 P
-Paajarvi: 121 GP, 17 G, 42 P

Yes, Kassian is a better hitter and a better fighter. Understood. However, it still makes zero sense to call one of them "the next great power forward" and another one of them effectively chopped liver, when the younger guy - Paajarvi - is the one that's accomplished significantly more, to-date, than Kassian has. And BTW, Magnus Paajarvi's listed at 6'2", 205, so this isn't Jan Hlavac we're talking about here.

The argument that 10/10 GMs would take Kassian is pure speculation, which I don't care to participate in. If that makes you feel better about Kassian, be my guest. But the numbers above, which, conveniently, nobody has responded to, do not lie.
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#1063 MC Fatigue

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:57 PM

The only time MPS has taken off a glove is when he was reaching for a water bottle.

I laughed.
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#1064 D-Money

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:06 PM

And BTW, Magnus Paajarvi's listed at 6'2", 205, so this isn't Jan Hlavac we're talking about here.


Strange comparison. Jan Hlavac was 6'0", 200 lbs...not much less than MPS. Right in among the average sized player.

Of course, Jan wasn't a very physical player. Kind of the typical "Euro" stereotype, kind of like...well, Paajarvi...

Wait a minute - maybe Jan Hlavac IS what you are talking about!
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#1065 Pears

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:09 PM

Schneider for Reilly. Everyone is happy.

No, everyone is not happy.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1066 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:03 PM

No he isn't. Franchise players don't get summarily dumped by relatively unproven backups/young players. I don't think we'd see Chicago trade Jonathan Toews if Marcus Kruger continues to development nicely. Lu is 33 years old and has lost his job to Cory Schneider. He's a good goalie, still high-end, not a franchise player.

Your reasoning is weak, like everyone else's on this issue.


Speaking of "weak" reasoning....

Comparing Shneider-Luongo to Toews-Kruger is a terrible example. First of all, there are 12 forward spots and only two goaltending spots.

A much better example would be the one already mentioned, where the Bruins had decided to go with Tuuka Rask over Tim Thomas...

...a year later, Thomas was by far the biggest factor in the Bruins'Cup final win.

Also, you mention that nobody has responded to your stats. However, you yourself have not repsoned to the point raised by myself (and others) about trading Luongo to fill an area of need, such as center and (preferably right-handed) defensive prospects.

As has been mentioned several times, MPS is a left winger and not a particularly physical one. This is something the Canucks have an abundance of already, so touting him as a player the Canucks should target in a trade for Luongo doesn't make much sense, nor does it make any sense to comapre his offensive stats to those of Kassian's.
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#1067 King of the ES

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:18 PM

The only time MPS has taken off a glove is when he was reaching for a water bottle.


Daniel Sedin allowed a 23 year-old rookie who's smaller than him speedbag him in his own building without retaliating in any way.

What's your point?
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#1068 King of the ES

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:26 PM

Comparing Shneider-Luongo to Toews-Kruger is a terrible example. First of all, there are 12 forward spots and only two goaltending spots.

A much better example would be the one already mentioned, where the Bruins had decided to go with Tuuka Rask over Tim Thomas...

...a year later, Thomas was by far the biggest factor in the Bruins'Cup final win.


Tuukka Rask wasn't earning $4M/year like Schneider is now. Big difference.

And BTW, are you saying that you agree with the assertion that Roberto Luongo is a franchise player - today?

Also, you mention that nobody has responded to your stats. However, you yourself have not repsoned to the point raised by myself (and others) about trading Luongo to fill an area of need, such as center and (preferably right-handed) defensive prospects.


Fair enough. My only point in this whole Paajarvi debacle is that he would be the clear target if we were to be orchestrating a trade with Edmonton (which I think is unlikely anyway, but whatever). Who else would there be? No, we're not getting RNH, Yakupov, probably not even Sam Gagner. Probably not even Paajarvi, IMO.

As has been mentioned several times, MPS is a left winger and not a particularly physical one. This is something the Canucks have an abundance of already, so touting him as a player the Canucks should target in a trade for Luongo doesn't make much sense, nor does it make any sense to comapre his offensive stats to those of Kassian's.


In a trade with Edmonton, who else would you suggest? You want to buy low - Paajarvi's low, so it'd be a good time to buy and take a chance that he'll blossom into something potentially very, very good. If he becomes very good, we make room for him on the roster through other moves.

I don't know who else the target would be from Edmonton, considering what they've got and what they won't give up. Any suggestions? Before you say Colton Teubert, remember that Edmonton would then be the second team that's traded him since being drafted in '08. AHL numbers for Colton also not promising. Looks like another Komisarek, at best.
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#1069 WolfxHaley

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:44 PM

I've never said the Canucks and their players are so bad. I've never said that Dubnyk or MPS are "great".

How about debating with actual things that I've brought up, instead?

Funny, you always seem quick to point out the negatives in all our players. Maybe you aren't saying it directly but you're certainly not saying our players are good either, there is ALWAYS something to complain about.
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#1070 JimLahey

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:45 PM

Daniel Sedin allowed a 23 year-old rookie who's smaller than him speedbag him in his own building without retaliating in any way.

What's your point?


Fun fact: that was irrelevant to the argument of Kassians style of play vs Paajarvi's.
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#1071 WolfxHaley

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

Daniel Sedin allowed a 23 year-old rookie who's smaller than him speedbag him in his own building without retaliating in any way.

What's your point?

I can't speak for him, but what I am getting from this is that we already have an abundance of LW players who are not particularly physical or willing to fight, so why would we bring in more of what we already have when there are other holes that could possibly be filled.
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#1072 playboi19

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:50 PM

Schneider for Reilly. Everyone is happy.

Burke takes that and runs, laughing all the way.
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#1073 sampy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

Daniel Sedin allowed a 23 year-old rookie who's smaller than him speedbag him in his own building without retaliating in any way.

What's your point?

My point is the Canucks have enough soft players, and physicality (as shown by the last 2 years drafts) is more needed.
All your comparaison are weak. Everyone is chewing your terrible arguments up, you are simply trolling.
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#1074 MC Fatigue

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

My point is the Canucks have enough soft players, and physicality (as shown by the last 2 years drafts) is more needed.
All your comparaison are weak. Everyone is chewing your terrible arguments up, you are simply trolling.


Edited by MC Fatigue, 14 November 2012 - 03:01 PM.

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#1075 King of the ES

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:19 PM

Fun fact: that was irrelevant to the argument of Kassians style of play vs Paajarvi's.


The point is that "lack of physicality" isn't a reasonable excuse. It's the excuse of somebody who's reaching. The only physical player on our top six is Kesler.
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#1076 King of the ES

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:21 PM

I can't speak for him, but what I am getting from this is that we already have an abundance of LW players who are not particularly physical or willing to fight, so why would we bring in more of what we already have when there are other holes that could possibly be filled.


Because we won't have those guys forever. Daniel Sedin is 32 years old. David Booth just isn't that good. Mason Raymond's most likely playing in his last season as a Canuck.

The point is that you should always try and go for the best player available in any trade, and not worry about minor things like "rugged, right-handed defenceman prospect depth". Sorry, I'll take whichever guy will have the most impact on the team. And if that requires further roster movements to accommodate him, so be it.
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#1077 King of the ES

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

My point is the Canucks have enough soft players, and physicality (as shown by the last 2 years drafts) is more needed.
All your comparaison are weak. Everyone is chewing your terrible arguments up, you are simply trolling.


Interesting.

One side is presenting numbers, one side is presenting insults (ie - "troll").

Who's doing the chewing?
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#1078 WolfxHaley

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:50 PM

Because we won't have those guys forever. Daniel Sedin is 32 years old. David Booth just isn't that good. Mason Raymond's most likely playing in his last season as a Canuck.

The point is that you should always try and go for the best player available in any trade, and not worry about minor things like "rugged, right-handed defenceman prospect depth". Sorry, I'll take whichever guy will have the most impact on the team. And if that requires further roster movements to accommodate him, so be it.

Yeah, you bring up a good point.
My reasoning is just based on Gillis saying he wants something to make us better now.
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#1079 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

Tuukka Rask wasn't earning $4M/year like Schneider is now. Big difference.

And BTW, are you saying that you agree with the assertion that Roberto Luongo is a franchise player - today?



Fair enough. My only point in this whole Paajarvi debacle is that he would be the clear target if we were to be orchestrating a trade with Edmonton (which I think is unlikely anyway, but whatever). Who else would there be? No, we're not getting RNH, Yakupov, probably not even Sam Gagner. Probably not even Paajarvi, IMO.



In a trade with Edmonton, who else would you suggest? You want to buy low - Paajarvi's low, so it'd be a good time to buy and take a chance that he'll blossom into something potentially very, very good. If he becomes very good, we make room for him on the roster through other moves.

I don't know who else the target would be from Edmonton, considering what they've got and what they won't give up. Any suggestions?  Before you say Colton Teubert, remember that Edmonton would then be the second team that's traded him since being drafted in '08. AHL numbers for Colton also not promising. Looks like another Komisarek, at best.


1) I'm saying that Luongo is a franchise goaltender....to the right team. This was the basis of my comparison between him and Thomas. TT certainly was a franchise goaltender against the Canucks, a year after he was bumped to #2 on the depth chart by Rask.

2) I didn't bring up MPS. (I thought that was you?) I personally don't see any deal between the Canucks and Oilers. I agree with you that none of the big 4 (5 counting Shultz) would be on the table, however, I disagree that Paajarvi would be the only possible target.

I disagree that we couldn't get Gags for Louie but I wouldn't target him anyway. I'd be more interested in a young defenseman like Potter or Petry, as well as Alex Plante.

Edited by RUPERTKBD, 14 November 2012 - 03:52 PM.

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#1080 sampy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

I don't post on this board much.  The main reason?

People Like King of E(verything) S(tupid). Can you people not see that his opinion means everything to him.  There is no logic, no reasoning, no material fact that can't be twisted to suit his all important opinion.  

His insecurity leaps off the page and clouds any potential for rational judgement or reasoning.

He can't be objective. There is no perspective except his own.  It's not possible. Please stop feeding his insecurity and let the professionals do their job.  Maybe then these posts won't get hijacked into the world according to King of E(go) S(entric).   Man I'm tired of the drivel.

PS: I know sentric is spelled centric.  (Thanks King)

Thank you


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