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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#1081 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:53 PM

Speaking of "weak" reasoning....

Comparing Shneider-Luongo to Toews-Kruger is a terrible example. First of all, there are 12 forward spots and only two goaltending spots.

A much better example would be the one already mentioned, where the Bruins had decided to go with Tuuka Rask over Tim Thomas...

...a year later, Thomas was by far the biggest factor in the Bruins'Cup final win.

Also, you mention that nobody has responded to your stats. However, you yourself have not repsoned to the point raised by myself (and others) about trading Luongo to fill an area of need, such as center and (preferably right-handed) defensive prospects.

As has been mentioned several times, MPS is a left winger and not a particularly physical one. This is something the Canucks have an abundance of already, so touting him as a player the Canucks should target in a trade for Luongo doesn't make much sense, nor does it make any sense to comapre his offensive stats to those of Kassian's.


This Boston example is what I'm hoping for as a result in the Luongo-Schneider saga where Luongo, who is indeed a franchise goaltender (the type of player who is drafted and has a team is built around), takes back his rightful place as the number one goaltender because he is being pushed by Schneider and plays lights out in the acquisition of a Cup.

This, of course, requires players of the likes Boston featured in 2011, which means a 1D, two 1C (Only H. Sedin qualifies) and excellent 3C (Ego aside, Kesler) and a plethora of dedicated, focused, massive hard workers with only one goal in mind; the Cup.

Moneyball only works for regular season success.

In effect, what Vancouver needs is a second 1C behind H. Sedin and a 1D to play in front of Luongo, while getting at least one nasty winger who's low IQ can rival that of Lucic's.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 14 November 2012 - 04:02 PM.

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#1082 WiDeN

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:58 PM

Sure there are better defensemen both on talent and in cap hit. The point is that post did not have anything close to the notions of reason and/ or argument.

For the sake of opinion, any on that list, including Phaneuf, would drastically help Vancouver's cause at acquiring their first Cup, for as it stands, teams read the defense as well as an open book.

Fair enough, but I think what that poster was replying to was the claim that Phaneuf was top 5 in the league, which is what I believe someone was saying.

I've never said the Canucks and their players are so bad. I've never said that Dubnyk or MPS are "great".

How about debating with actual things that I've brought up, instead?

I replied specifically to the Kassian vs Paajarvi topic last page just before the basketball comments.

No he isn't. Franchise players don't get summarily dumped by relatively unproven backups/young players. I don't think we'd see Chicago trade Jonathan Toews if Marcus Kruger continues to development nicely. Lu is 33 years old and has lost his job to Cory Schneider. He's a good goalie, still high-end, not a franchise player.



Your reasoning is weak, like everyone else's on this issue. It's resorting to personally insulting me, which is a pretty clear signal that your argument has no legs to stand on.

Again, I will post the NHL stats:

-Kassian: 44 GP, 4 G, 10 P
-Paajarvi: 121 GP, 17 G, 42 P

Yes, Kassian is a better hitter and a better fighter. Understood. However, it still makes zero sense to call one of them "the next great power forward" and another one of them effectively chopped liver, when the younger guy - Paajarvi - is the one that's accomplished significantly more, to-date, than Kassian has. And BTW, Magnus Paajarvi's listed at 6'2", 205, so this isn't Jan Hlavac we're talking about here.

The argument that 10/10 GMs would take Kassian is pure speculation, which I don't care to participate in. If that makes you feel better about Kassian, be my guest. But the numbers above, which, conveniently, nobody has responded to, do not lie.

Until you've replied to my lengthy weigh in on that topic, don't call my reasoning weak. You've posted the stats twice now that I refuted with my own.
Oh wait... No. That was the Phaneuf/Bieksa thing that I replied to.
Reply anyway.
I did reply to the Kassian/Paajarvi thing though. I think it was on the same page.
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#1083 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

Because we won't have those guys forever. Daniel Sedin is 32 years old. David Booth just isn't that good. Mason Raymond's most likely playing in his last season as a Canuck.

The point is that you should always try and go for the best player available in any trade, and not worry about minor things like "rugged, right-handed defenceman prospect depth". Sorry, I'll take whichever guy will have the most impact on the team. And if that requires further roster movements to accommodate him, so be it.


An excellent example of that would have been the Nash for a Schneider package that was floating around before Nash ended up in NYC...
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#1084 Riviera82

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

Schneider for Reilly. Everyone is happy.


Nope.
You think Reilly is going to save Luongo in the playoffs when he starts melting down?
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#1085 smurf47

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:10 PM

This Boston example is what I'm hoping for as a result in the Luongo-Schneider saga where Luongo, who is indeed a franchise goaltender (the type of player who is drafted and has a team is built around), takes back his rightful place as the number one goaltender because he is being pushed by Schneider and plays lights out in the acquisition of a Cup.

This, of course, requires players of the likes Boston featured in 2011, which means a 1D, two 1C (Only H. Sedin qualifies) and excellent 3C (Ego aside, Kesler) and a plethora of dedicated, focused, massive hard workers with only one goal in mind; the Cup.

Moneyball only works for regular season success.

In effect, what Vancouver needs is a second 1C behind H. Sedin and a 1D to play in front of Luongo, while getting at least one nasty winger who's low IQ can rival that of Lucic's.

Unless Luongo finds the form he used in 2010...his rightful place will be backing up the superior Schneider !!
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#1086 JimLahey

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:27 PM

The point is that "lack of physicality" isn't a reasonable excuse. It's the excuse of somebody who's reaching. The only physical player on our top six is Kesler.


Lack of physicality would be an irrelevant argument if Paajarvi completely outperformed Kassian last season.

They were similar stat-wise last season. Paajarvi had a very good rookie campaign but a less than impressive follow up season.

2011/2012 season:
Magnus Svensson-Paajarvi: GP: 41 G: 2 P:8 PPG: 0.195
Zack Kassian: GP: 44 G: 4 P: 10 PPG: 0.227

Very similar stats. If I were to pick a player based on style of play (based on Canucks needs), Kassian is my guy.

Edited by JimLahey, 14 November 2012 - 08:33 PM.

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#1087 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:55 PM

No he isn't. Franchise players don't get summarily dumped by relatively unproven backups/young players. I don't think we'd see Chicago trade Jonathan Toews if Marcus Kruger continues to development nicely. Lu is 33 years old and has lost his job to Cory Schneider. He's a good goalie, still high-end, not a franchise player.


Terrible comparison, but anyways Luongo is still a much better player than Lecavalier with a much better contract.

You say the 2 years extra makes it even, but 5.2 for a star goalie, Who's contract will end when he retires is much better than 7.5 or whatever it is for a mediocre 2nd liner (And I'm being generous).


Your reasoning is weak, like everyone else's on this issue. It's resorting to personally insulting me, which is a pretty clear signal that your argument has no legs to stand on.

Again, I will post the NHL stats:

-Kassian: 44 GP, 4 G, 10 P
-Paajarvi: 121 GP, 17 G, 42 P

Yes, Kassian is a better hitter and a better fighter. Understood. However, it still makes zero sense to call one of them "the next great power forward" and another one of them effectively chopped liver, when the younger guy - Paajarvi - is the one that's accomplished significantly more, to-date, than Kassian has. And BTW, Magnus Paajarvi's listed at 6'2", 205, so this isn't Jan Hlavac we're talking about here.

The argument that 10/10 GMs would take Kassian is pure speculation, which I don't care to participate in. If that makes you feel better about Kassian, be my guest. But the numbers above, which, conveniently, nobody has responded to, do not lie.


Even though Paajarvi has had much more opportunity than Kassian, and with better players. Stat's wise it is pretty much the exact same between the two when you average it out.

Then you also add in all the other things Kassian has that Paajarvi doesn't (Which I don't need to go through again), and then you look at last year alone since they played a similar amount of games,

Paajarvi: 41GP, 2G, 6A, 8P, 16PIMS, (-7)

Kassian: 44GP, 4G, 6A, 10P, 51PIMS, (-2)

So in roughly the same amount of Games, there production was about the same, Kassian's fighting was shown with the huge PIM total's and in more games Kassian was only -2 whereas Paajarvi was -7.

Oh ya did I mention Paajarvi was getting more icetime and playing with better player too?

I rest my case on this topic.

Daniel Sedin allowed a 23 year-old rookie who's smaller than him speedbag him in his own building without retaliating in any way.

What's your point?


Lol what does that have to do with anything?

Tuukka Rask wasn't earning $4M/year like Schneider is now. Big difference.

And BTW, are you saying that you agree with the assertion that Roberto Luongo is a franchise player - today?


Your right, 3.5M.

Huge difference. <_<


And I didn't go into all the Edmonton stuff cause Lu to Edm is completely unrealistic anyways.


All I have left to say is that you never fail to amazing me King, That's for sure.
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#1088 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:20 PM

Schneider was signed as an RFA at a perfect contract. It is cap friendly, Canucks friendly and trade friendly.

If Lecavalier won't be traded because of contractual term, neither will Luongo.

I have an inclination that the pro-Schneider fanatics, and they are fanatics, will be rioting or become fans of another team very soon.

Of course, this depends almost solely on Luongo. If he outperforms Schneider, quite a feat I must admit, I see no reason to trade Luongo. Schneider on the other hand, we know what he brings to the table and so do other teams. Making Schneider available drastically opens doors for the Canucks as most teams could be involved, especially bottom and mid range teams desperately looking for stability in net.

Concerning Paajarvi, he's exactly what the Canucks do not need. Booth, Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Raymond and Kassian more than equal what Paajarvi can bring to the table.

He's also Edmonton property.

What the Canucks missed out on is the Turris trade; that's the type of player they ought to bring in promptly at forward position.

And a 1D.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 14 November 2012 - 10:26 PM.

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#1089 Pears

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:30 PM

Schneider was signed as an RFA at a perfect contract. It is cap friendly, Canucks friendly and trade friendly.

If Lecavalier won't be traded because of contractual term, neither will Luongo.

I have an inclination that the pro-Schneider fanatics will be rioting or become fans of another team very soon.

Of course, this depends almost solely on Luongo. If he outperforms Schneider, quite a feat I must admit, I see no reason to trade Luongo. Schneider on the other hand, we know what he brings to the table and so do other teams. Making Schneider available drastically opens doors for the Canucks as most teams could be involved, especially bottom and mid range teams desperately looking for stability in net.

Concerning Paajarvi, he's exactly what the Canucks do not need. Booth, Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Raymond and Kassian more than equal what Paajarvi can bring to the table.

He's also Edmonton property.

What the Canucks missed out on is the Turris trade; that's the type of player they ought to bring in promptly at forward position.

And a 1D.

What does that have to with trading Schneider for Reilly? The majority of Canucks fans know that MG can get waaaaaay more than just Reilly.

For the I don't know how many'th time, Luongo's contract is not as bad as some people think. And with the new CBA it could be even better if player salaries are reduced.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1090 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:34 PM

I think if King redirected his cynicism towards Mason Raymond, everyone would like him again.
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#1091 MC Fatigue

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:06 PM

what do you mean..again?
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#1092 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:15 PM

VAN
J.R. Umberger (playoff beastmode)
Ryan Murray (Top D prospect, 2nd overall, 2012)

CBJ
Schneider
Ballard
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#1093 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:19 PM

I think if King redirected his cynicism towards Mason Raymond, everyone would like him again.


Outstanding point.
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#1094 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:20 PM

VAN
J.R. Umberger (playoff beastmode)
Ryan Murray (Top D prospect, 2nd overall, 2012)

CBJ
Schneider
Ballard


Not bad, but no thanks.

The writing is on the wall, Luongo wants to go and he is the one that has to go.
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#1095 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:33 PM

Not bad, but no thanks.

The writing is on the wall, Luongo wants to go and he is the one that has to go.


Let's not underestimate Luongo's sense of humor, wit and awkwardness with the media. He never said he wanted to go. He was asked a specific question to which he specifically answered and so did Gillis. Both parties are keeping options open.
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#1096 Pears

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:36 PM

VAN
J.R. Umberger (playoff beastmode)
Ryan Murray (Top D prospect, 2nd overall, 2012)

CBJ
Schneider
Ballard

Not a chance Columbus trades both Umberger (its RJ btw) and Ryan Murray, who most people say was the most NHL prospect out of the 2012 draft, even if it is for Schneider.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1097 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:56 PM

Let's not underestimate Luongo's sense of humor, wit and awkwardness with the media. He never said he wanted to go. He was asked a specific question to which he specifically answered and so did Gillis. Both parties are keeping options open.


He requested a trade.

And he said himself that it is his time to move on. I don't really want to go find a link, but I assure you he did.
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#1098 sampy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:56 PM

I watched the Russia Canada Super Series game tonight at the Pacific Coliseum and Rielly looked unreal, a lot more noticeable than Yakupov. Murray looked good too but Rielly stood out. Gillis has to find a way to pick him up.

Lu, Shroeder, Sauve, 2nd
For
Rielly and Connolly (cap dump that can fill centre)

Edited by sampy, 14 November 2012 - 11:57 PM.

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#1099 SEAN HARNETT

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:29 AM

I watched the Russia Canada Super Series game tonight at the Pacific Coliseum and Rielly looked unreal, a lot more noticeable than Yakupov. Murray looked good too but Rielly stood out. Gillis has to find a way to pick him up.

Lu, Shroeder, Sauve, 2nd
For
Rielly and Connolly (cap dump that can fill centre)


Burke is not trading a corner stone player for an aging over paid goalie. Luongo will bring a decent return, but no blue chip prospect. Think along the lines of Prospect + Draft pick + bottom six player.
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#1100 SEAN HARNETT

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:38 AM

This Boston example is what I'm hoping for as a result in the Luongo-Schneider saga where Luongo, who is indeed a franchise goaltender (the type of player who is drafted and has a team is built around), takes back his rightful place as the number one goaltender because he is being pushed by Schneider and plays lights out in the acquisition of a Cup.

This, of course, requires players of the likes Boston featured in 2011, which means a 1D, two 1C (Only H. Sedin qualifies) and excellent 3C (Ego aside, Kesler) and a plethora of dedicated, focused, massive hard workers with only one goal in mind; the Cup.

Moneyball only works for regular season success.

In effect, what Vancouver needs is a second 1C behind H. Sedin and a 1D to play in front of Luongo, while getting at least one nasty winger who's low IQ can rival that of Lucic's.


I agree with this. But I also think Kesler would be a 1st line center on alot of teams. This kind of was what was happening in 2010 when Malhotra was freeing up Kesler to play a more offensive role. A healthy Malhotra might have been all the difference in winning the cup. So my suggestion would be to find a great third line center if you cant find that 1A. Add that 1D and it wont matter who is in net weither it be Shnieds or Luo.
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#1101 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:39 AM

Burke is not trading a corner stone player for an aging over paid goalie. Luongo will bring a decent return, but no blue chip prospect. Think along the lines of Prospect + Draft pick + bottom six player.


For a young blue chip goalie though... You know?

Schneider for Reilly.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 15 November 2012 - 01:47 AM.

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#1102 Pears

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:46 AM

For a young blue chip goalie goalie though... You know?

Schneider for Reilly.

Leafs won't trade Reilly, Canucks won't trade Schneider for Reilly. Hence why this trade will not happen. Ever.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1103 Pears

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:51 AM

Burke is not trading a corner stone player for an aging over paid goalie. Luongo will bring a decent return, but no blue chip prospect. Think along the lines of Prospect + Draft pick + bottom six player.

I would be happy with this type of return for Lu. Lets try and break it down from the teams reportedly showing interest:

Florida: Howden, Kopecky, 1st or 2nd

Toronto: Frattin, Finn, 1st

Chicago: Bickell, McNiell or Pirri, 1st

Edmonton: Hamilton, Jones, 1st or 2nd
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1104 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:17 AM

Leafs won't trade Reilly, Canucks won't trade Schneider for Reilly. Hence why this trade will not happen. Ever.


I do like the fact that you said "Canucks won't trade Schneider for"... At the very least, one must be open to the idea that either goaltender could be moved in light of the right pieces offered.

As it stands today, Schneider is much more movable than Luongo. Good on you.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 15 November 2012 - 02:19 AM.

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#1105 Pears

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:27 AM

I do like the fact that you said "Canucks won't trade Schneider for"... At the very least, one must be open to the idea that either goaltender could be moved in light of the right pieces offered.

As it stands today, Schneider is much more movable than Luongo. Good on you.

How is Schneider much more moveable than Luongo when Cory is pretty much untouchable, unless MG gets an offer for Schneids that he just absolutely cannot refuse?

Edited by Steven Stamkos' Mullet, 15 November 2012 - 02:27 AM.

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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1106 King of the ES

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:31 AM

Terrible comparison, but anyways Luongo is still a much better player than Lecavalier with a much better contract.

You say the 2 years extra makes it even, but 5.2 for a star goalie, Who's contract will end when he retires is much better than 7.5 or whatever it is for a mediocre 2nd liner (And I'm being generous).


That "mediocre 2nd liner" has accomplished a lot more than Luongo has. 4X All-Star, Stanley Cup, Rocket Richard, King Clancy.

In addition, in terms of marketability, there are 60 top-six center spots, and only 30 starting goalie spots. So the demand for Lecavalier probably would be a lot higher than what it currently is for Luongo.

Even though Paajarvi has had much more opportunity than Kassian, and with better players. Stat's wise it is pretty much the exact same between the two when you average it out.

Then you also add in all the other things Kassian has that Paajarvi doesn't (Which I don't need to go through again), and then you look at last year alone since they played a similar amount of games,

Paajarvi: 41GP, 2G, 6A, 8P, 16PIMS, (-7)

Kassian: 44GP, 4G, 6A, 10P, 51PIMS, (-2)

So in roughly the same amount of Games, there production was about the same, Kassian's fighting was shown with the huge PIM total's and in more games Kassian was only -2 whereas Paajarvi was -7.

Oh ya did I mention Paajarvi was getting more icetime and playing with better player too?

I rest my case on this topic.


Interesting that you've just chosen to completely ignore Paajarvi's rookie year. :rolleyes:

Edited by King of the ES, 15 November 2012 - 04:31 AM.

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#1107 King of the ES

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:36 AM

2011/2012 season:
Magnus Svensson-Paajarvi: GP: 41 G: 2 P:8 PPG: 0.195
Zack Kassian: GP: 44 G: 4 P: 10 PPG: 0.227

Very similar stats. If I were to pick a player based on style of play (based on Canucks needs), Kassian is my guy.


I guess the idea here at CDC is to pretend that Paajarvi's rookie year just didn't happen?

Given the choice, I as well would probably choose Kassian, based solely on intrigue/potential. But that's not relevant to the debate. The debate is who to go after from Edmonton, should Luongo be dealt there. And it's quite the contradiction for CDCers to scoff at the notion of trading Kassian for Lecavalier, while also scoffing at the notion of trading Luongo for Paajarvi.
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#1108 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:40 AM

I doubt either team has any interest in trading Lecavalier for Kassian?

I guess the idea here at CDC is to pretend that Paajarvi's rookie year just didn't happen?

Given the choice, I as well would probably choose Kassian, based solely on intrigue/potential. But that's not relevant to the debate. The debate is who to go after from Edmonton, should Luongo be dealt there. And it's quite the contradiction for CDCers to scoff at the notion of trading Kassian for Lecavalier, while also scoffing at the notion of trading Luongo for Paajarvi.


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#1109 King of the ES

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:46 AM

As it stands today, Schneider is much more movable than Luongo. Good on you.


Yes, but Toronto simply will not trade Morgan Rielly for him. Like most people on here, you're making a proposal based on your desire as a Canuck fan rather than looking at it from the other side of the transaction.

Schneider maybe could've been used to land Rick Nash, though I don't think Vancouver was one of the places that Nash was interested in coming to. Kyle Turris, as someone else had alluded to, would've also made sense. Morgan Rielly just won't happen.

But anyway, that ship has sailed. Schneider should've been moved earlier, but he wasn't, and now we're stuck moving Luongo. Schneider will not be getting moved.

Edited by King of the ES, 15 November 2012 - 04:47 AM.

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#1110 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:49 AM

If Kesler and Hamhuis were healthy; we probably win the cup!

And this year we got nowhere as Kesler was injured much sooner. Assuming he returns to health the 1C is not an issue!

But we are missing a bonafide stud on D where our by committee approach wa further behind without Erhoff. Is Garrison, who brings a different element, enough?

I believe the Lou trade needs a blu chip D man and a forward prospect?



I agree with this. But I also think Kesler would be a 1st line center on alot of teams. This kind of was what was happening in 2010 when Malhotra was freeing up Kesler to play a more offensive role. A healthy Malhotra might have been all the difference in winning the cup. So my suggestion would be to find a great third line center if you cant find that 1A. Add that 1D and it wont matter who is in net weither it be Shnieds or Luo.


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