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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#1171 oldnews

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

Yep, that's gotta be it.

Because if there's any group of fans that are known for their objective nature, it's the fans of your Vancouver Canucks.


once again you sidestep the actual question
you said his cap hit is "acceptable"
you say other teams fans think he is "way overpaid".
so are you wrong, or are the fans of other teams wrong?
clearly neither of those have anything to do with Canucks fans.
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#1172 oldnews

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:55 PM

I didn't suggest that he thinks he's ascending - I asked if that's what he thought.


Here's how you framed your "question."

"You don't actually think that Luongo's ascending, do you?"

The point is that D-Mo suggested nothing resembling that. You do that kind of thing all the time - clearly attempting to re-frame his point in a way that has nothing at all to do with what he was saying. You are implying/suggesting that D-Mo said something to the effect that he actually thinks Luongo is ascending. If a person hadn't read his original post they would clearly be lead to believe that D-Mo made some kind of statement to that effect. The irony is that you pulled that out of nowhere - to divert from his point - that is not a conversation King.
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#1173 WiDeN

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:08 PM

Sorry - do you have a link to your post? This is RE: Bieksa/Phaneuf, yes? Hard to keep up in this thread.

Dude, I watched basketball today. THAT'S why we're talking about this.


They are extremely different players, and neither has panned out early.

Paajarvi has been given way more chance to play top 6 minutes, and has had serious pointless streaks that got him sent down to OKC in favor of guys like Omark and Hartikainen. He reminds me of a Hansen type player, and unless he has a learning cure, then he won't have lived up to his billing.

Kassian is hopefully a power forward type player, and as usual with that type, is expected to take longer to develop. Neither prospect is a sure thing, but Kassian hasn't been given steady time in the NHL to get comfortable and show his stuff like Magnus has.

At this point, I have higher hopes for Kassian to reach his ceiling than I do for Paajarvi, and this comes from someone who watches a lot of games from both teams.

Really a better comparison to Luongo for Paajarvi is Luongo for Kassian. Buffalo would have (had they not had Miller) taken that deal in the time it take a hummingbird to sneeze and called home to talk about it. It's not even in the realm of realistic, in fact, it's laughable to even propose. I am not sure how many Oilers games you have personally watched, but having followed them since I moved here in 2004, I know that is a goofy deal.

Phaneuf has been put in a position to acquire those stats since he came in to the league, but Bieksa has had to start in the bottom pairing with no special teams TOI.

Instead of career stats, let's look at the last two years.



In the last two years Phaneuf's point total is 74, where Bieksa is 88.

Phaneuf's +/- is -12, and Bieksa is +44



Advanced stats tell more of the story:

As described by arcticicehockey.com, a Corsi Number is “the shot differential while a player was on the ice. This includes not just goals and shots on goal, but also shots that miss the net, and in some formulations, blocked shots. In other words, it’s the differential in the total number of shots directed at the net.”

Phaneuf's Corsi averaged over the last 2 years is .9, and Bieksa's is 5.45

Phaneuf's On-Ice team save percentage is .912, and Bieksa's is .9275

In 5 on 4 situations (last year was the first year this stat was collected) when Phaneuf is on the ice the team shooting percentage is 13.55, and Kevin Bieksa's is 15.04

In 4 on 5 (also only collected last year) Phaneuf's Team On-Ice Save percentage was .866, and Bieksa's was .949




To sum up, my feeling is that Phaneuf's world junior performance and All Star nominations mean nothing to what he could bring to our team. I think he has been put in more situations to collect high-end stats, because his ceiling was initially projected higher than Bieksa's. In his early years he looked as though he could breakout in to a true #1 D-man, but never managed to achieve that status. I think what he brings to the team is no more than Bieksa brings for us already at a much better price. I haven't seen Garrison play, but I would assume that Phaneuf would land ahead of him on the depth charts were he here. All of the stats I posted could theoretically be brushed off by saying that Phaneuf was on the non playoff Leafs and Bieksa was on the President's Trophy Canucks, and I realize that, but I think it is more fair to compare their last two years, because in those two years their peaks have likely both been realized. Career accumulation isn't quite as telling, because like I said Phaneuf's early career was much different than Bieksa's.


Edited by WiDeN, 15 November 2012 - 08:09 PM.

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#1174 oldnews

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:13 PM

I would love to have people stop replying to King so we can have something resembling intelligent conversations in this thread...


I would love for people to stop trying to police a hockey discussion for "intelligence" - so that we can simply proceed in an inclusive way, without attempts to exclude posters who are inoffensive, but not perceived by some to be as "intelligent" as themself.

You are free to use your "ignore preferences" to ignore the posts, signatures, or messages of any users.

There is probably also the option of creating an "intelligent conversations" thread.
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#1175 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:25 PM

As I have said at other times, I do not hate Luongo, I have just had it with him and his annually pedestrian playoff performances, especially now that we have a seemingly stronger alternative (Schneider). It also doesn't help my personal opinion of him when so many posters here tout him as some sort of goaltending God when he's accomplished very little of real significance, NHL speaking. His tires are pumped by many.
I blame Luongo for being the highest paid and most important player on the team while he turns in very underwhelming performances at the most important times. The other guys you mentioned may not always be great either but they also dont carry the burden of being the most arrogant player, highest paid, and goaltender.
Last year's playoffs against LA, I saw Luongo turn in good to average regular season performances. I saw Schneider turn in elite playoff performances.
Once again, I dont hate Luongo, I'm just weary of seeing the same thing from him year after year.


Maybe, just maybe, that's how bad the team actually is. It is my fear that such success as we're experiencing is but an illusion that will cease in the event of a Luongo trade.

As with mentors in any field including corporate and religious organizations, having a mentor, an example to follow, makes everyone better. an excellent example would be the death of Steve Jobbs at Apple; Apple suddenly finds itself much less creative and projections is the $600+ shares today will fall flat withing three years.

Luongo keeps all players on the team as accountable as the organization with an expected high work ethic, personal goal achievement; diet, daily routine, sleep patern, buying in the system, and subsequently on-ice performance. Schneider, who is 26 years old, has been mentored by Luongo, a 33 year old veteran, if only by sheer observation of Luongo's daily activities. I do not foresee Schneider having such an influence on his pers as Luongo does.

Take out Luongo and you might take out the Canucks altogether. This is not so much about Schneider's performance, talent or spirit; it is more about having an aged goaltender who leads by example day in, day out.

Goaltenders are finicky, whoever they are. Historically, most goaltenders have lived an isolated life. They have been awkward with media and have been kept away from the mics and cameras. Goaltending is a world where solitude often meets loneliness. The media seldom talked to Roy for anything. Brodeur doesn't do that many interviews either.

In fact, when seldom seen, a greater aura of intrigue is created and intrigue can even lead to an aura of divinity.

Luongo's sole problem is he has been exposed to everyone too often through the media and so the mystery, the aura, is gone. This does not mean he cannot gain it back, like his prior form. Goaltenders like Luongo, Hasek, Brodeur and Roy are also known to perform better in their later years and when left to their own. Look at Thomas' awkwardness with the media. Luongo is not far behind.

It has nothing to do with Schneider and everything to do with the Canucks.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 15 November 2012 - 09:19 PM.

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#1176 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:03 PM

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you because I do agree with you most of the time and respect your posts and opinon but It has been reported numorous times that indeed he has.

http://vansunsportsb...-hear-about-it/

http://aol.sportingn...nto-maple-leafs

There's even a thread here about it.

http://forum.canucks...ng-with-gillis/


To me Luongo would prefer leaving, there have been reports, and even though reports like this aren't a sure thing by anymeans, there is still more behind it that just pure speculation.

But I do think there's no way we can keep him instead of Cory, unless the deal is just such a big overpayment that you would have to do it. He is in so much turmoil with alot/most of the fan base (Both Casual and invested fans), and adding the fact that Cory is already about the same calibre goalie only makes things worse in that respect, and for Cory overall aswell.

I'm a huge Luongo fan like you (I assume), and I do agree that he still likes the city & would be willing to stay if we don't get the deal done right away but even if he hasn't requested a trade and those reports are wrong, I still do believe he would rather move than stay here long term.


SOURCE:


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#1177 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:11 PM

SOURCE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDmpKOLFS64


... that was a nasty shot.

But your point is?

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 15 November 2012 - 09:12 PM.

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#1178 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:20 PM

... that was a nasty shot.

But your point is?


Point is that's the only source quoted as saying Luongo has requested a trade and wants to leave Vancouver; a man whose brain was turned sideways during one of his last game.
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#1179 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:23 PM

Point is that's the only source quoted as saying Luongo has requested a trade and wants to leave Vancouver; a man whose brain was turned sideways during one of his last game.


... I'm not sure how him losing a fight during his NHL career takes away from any of the credibility he has as a source...
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#1180 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:36 PM

... I'm not sure how him losing a fight during his NHL career takes away from any of the credibility he has as a source...


Me neither so THERE. lol!

Jokes aside, rumors, as mentioned above in another's post, have already been refuted.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 15 November 2012 - 09:37 PM.

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#1181 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:37 PM

Me neither so THERE. lol!


.. Haha?
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#1182 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:56 PM

*
POPULAR

Alright, it's official, King is a troll.

No one in their right mind would believe that Bouwmeester is worth 6.7, Phaneuf worth 6.5 or Lecavalier worth 7.5.

It's safe to say that not a single GM out there would want these contracts coming back in any trade, nonetheless for an all-star starting goaltender. It was a wild ride, but let's face it, a majority of what King posts is incendiary.
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#1183 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:01 PM

Alright, it's official, King is a troll.

No one in their right mind would believe that Bouwmeester is worth 6.7, Phaneuf worth 6.5 or Lecavalier worth 7.5.

It's safe to say that not a single GM out there would want these contracts coming back in any trade, nonetheless for an all-star starting goaltender. It was a wild ride, but let's face it, a majority of what King posts is incendiary.


Phaneuf was traded to Toronto on his current contract, Boumeester is rumored going to Detroit and Lecavalier exercised his NTC against a trade to Montreal after the 2009 all star game.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 15 November 2012 - 10:33 PM.

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#1184 WolfxHaley

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:43 PM

D-Mo is making point after point about Lecavalier's decline, and the fact that it'll likely get worse.

That being the case, it is reasonable for me to counter with the notion that it is likely Luongo will also get worse - like he has been since 2007, what appears to have been his peak. You bring up Martin Brodeur as an example - playoffs notwithstanding, his year was not good. Nor was last year.

Wait a second!

Interesting that you've just chosen to completely ignore Paajarvi's rookie year. :rolleyes:



You can Ignore Brodeur's playoff performance, but we must NEVER forget Paajarvi's rookie season?

Dafuq
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#1185 playboi19

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:10 PM

Phaneuf was traded to Toronto on his current contract, Boumeester is rumored going to Detroit and Lecavalier exercised his NTC against a trade to Montreal after the 2009 all star game.

His NTC hadn't kicked in yet, so that would be impossible.
These are the facts.
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#1186 smurf47

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:27 PM

Maybe, just maybe, that's how bad the team actually is. It is my fear that such success as we're experiencing is but an illusion that will cease in the event of a Luongo trade.

As with mentors in any field including corporate and religious organizations, having a mentor, an example to follow, makes everyone better. an excellent example would be the death of Steve Jobbs at Apple; Apple suddenly finds itself much less creative and projections is the $600+ shares today will fall flat withing three years.

Luongo keeps all players on the team as accountable as the organization with an expected high work ethic, personal goal achievement; diet, daily routine, sleep patern, buying in the system, and subsequently on-ice performance. Schneider, who is 26 years old, has been mentored by Luongo, a 33 year old veteran, if only by sheer observation of Luongo's daily activities. I do not foresee Schneider having such an influence on his pers as Luongo does.

Take out Luongo and you might take out the Canucks altogether. This is not so much about Schneider's performance, talent or spirit; it is more about having an aged goaltender who leads by example day in, day out.

Goaltenders are finicky, whoever they are. Historically, most goaltenders have lived an isolated life. They have been awkward with media and have been kept away from the mics and cameras. Goaltending is a world where solitude often meets loneliness. The media seldom talked to Roy for anything. Brodeur doesn't do that many interviews either.

In fact, when seldom seen, a greater aura of intrigue is created and intrigue can even lead to an aura of divinity.

Luongo's sole problem is he has been exposed to everyone too often through the media and so the mystery, the aura, is gone. This does not mean he cannot gain it back, like his prior form. Goaltenders like Luongo, Hasek, Brodeur and Roy are also known to perform better in their later years and when left to their own. Look at Thomas' awkwardness with the media. Luongo is not far behind.

It has nothing to do with Schneider and everything to do with the Canucks.

Every time someone makes a point...you want it backed up by facts..in duplicate. Yet, you can sit there and write that Luongo's " SOLE" problem has been his exposure to the media and thus the aura is gone. Truth be told, Luongo's stats were smack dab in the middle last season,on a first placed team. THAT is a measurement of his success or lack thereof. His aura or mystic is gone because teams know he is vulnerable and can be had. His stats reflect his performance. Although Lou has maintained career stats, that does not tell the whole story. Other goalies have passed him by...he is treading water while others swim away. Once again, last year he was middle of the pack...ya think there might be a good reason for that ?
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#1187 MC Fatigue

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:12 AM

Phaneuf was traded to Toronto on his current contract, Boumeester is rumored going to Detroit and Lecavalier exercised his NTC against a trade to Montreal after the 2009 all star game.

His NTC hadn't kicked in yet, so that would be impossible.
These are the facts.

Pure gold.

Edited by MC Fatigue, 16 November 2012 - 04:31 AM.

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#1188 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:27 AM

His NTC hadn't kicked in yet, so that would be impossible.
These are the facts.


Yes, you are right. It was before his NMC kicked in, though he was assured at the time he was not being shopped, as he also mentioned liking it in Tampa Bay. Point is, there is a market for good players whatever the contract. Nash is a good example of such a recent move: six years left at $7,800,000.00 a year.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 16 November 2012 - 12:28 AM.

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#1189 King of the ES

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:25 AM

you said his cap hit is "acceptable"
you say other teams fans think he is "way overpaid".
so are you wrong, or are the fans of other teams wrong?


I was making an example of the element of bias. Most Vancouver fans think that Luongo is pretty good value, while Lecavalier's an albatross. My guess is that most Tampa Bay fans would think the inverse of the two.
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#1190 King of the ES

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:38 AM


On Paajarvi v. Kassian. You're using the "more opportunity" example, yes? You're right, but the problem with that argument is that you still have to deliver. Paajarvi did - in his rookie year, anyway. Kassian had plenty of opportunities last year after arriving on this team, and the season ended with him watching the game from the press box. And again, I'll remind you that I'm not saying that I'd rather have Paajarvi than Kassian, I'm saying that they're of roughly equivalent trade value.

On Bieksa v. Phaneuf. I just don't buy those "advanced" stats. A bunch of guys trying to be the Bill James of the NHL. The problem is that hockey is a much more teammate-dependent game and individual performance can't really be broken down beyond goals, assists, sort of +/-, and then the various eye tests (skating, passing, shooting, etc.). Bieksa's a guy who, IMO, has always had an unjustified "tough guy" billing. He's had serious inconsistency issues, being this team's whipping boy on multiple years. Not a great skater, not a great shot, not a great passer. Decent in all, not great. His leadership skills are evident, as is his personality, which is why he's (at the moment) so well-liked - but, given the pattern of his career, it would not surprise me one bit to see him become this team's whipping boy once again, at some point throughout the tenure of his next contract.
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#1191 King of the ES

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:39 AM

I would love for people to stop trying to police a hockey discussion for "intelligence" - so that we can simply proceed in an inclusive way, without attempts to exclude posters who are inoffensive, but not perceived by some to be as "intelligent" as themself.

You are free to use your "ignore preferences" to ignore the posts, signatures, or messages of any users.

There is probably also the option of creating an "intelligent conversations" thread.


Thank you. Agreed.
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#1192 King of the ES

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:44 AM

Alright, it's official, King is a troll.

No one in their right mind would believe that Bouwmeester is worth 6.7, Phaneuf worth 6.5 or Lecavalier worth 7.5.

It's safe to say that not a single GM out there would want these contracts coming back in any trade, nonetheless for an all-star starting goaltender. It was a wild ride, but let's face it, a majority of what King posts is incendiary.


Where did I ever say that they were "worth" those amounts? Who's the troll?

And exactly how many GMs out there do you think are hungry to take on your 33 year-old "all-star starting goaltender"'s contract, who lost his job to a rookie backup, who is well-known to collapse under pressure, and who is on the books for $5.3M until 2022? Where are all of those GMs, troll? Shouldn't this "all-star starting goaltender" have been snapped up by the draft, at the latest? Shouldn't the bidding war have been dramatic? What happened?
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#1193 King of the ES

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:57 AM

Yes, you are right. It was before his NMC kicked in, though he was assured at the time he was not being shopped, as he also mentioned liking it in Tampa Bay. Point is, there is a market for good players whatever the contract. Nash is a good example of such a recent move: six years left at $7,800,000.00 a year.


Very true - I recall Lecavalier making noise about not wanting to be moved to Montreal. It's very unfortunate, but I think he's content with the Florida life of big (tax-free) dollars and relative anonymity.

That also is a very good point about a market existing for players that can add value, regardless of cost. Guys like Ossi Vaananen seem to think that no GMs in the league would touch Bouwmeester, Lecavalier, or Phaneuf. I would counter with the argument that I'm pretty sure that Mike Gillis would very quickly and happily trade $4.25M Keith Ballard for either of the two d-men. Think Brian Burke wouldn't jump at the chance to trade $5M Tim Connolly for Vinny Lecavalier?

There are bad contracts everywhere, on every team. If a guy can play, he still has value. Jay Bouwmeester was 3rd in the entire NHL in TOI last year, Dion Phaneuf 6th. But yeah, no team would "touch" either of these two, eh?
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#1194 WiDeN

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:25 AM

On Paajarvi v. Kassian. You're using the "more opportunity" example, yes? You're right, but the problem with that argument is that you still have to deliver. Paajarvi did - in his rookie year, anyway. Kassian had plenty of opportunities last year after arriving on this team, and the season ended with him watching the game from the press box. And again, I'll remind you that I'm not saying that I'd rather have Paajarvi than Kassian, I'm saying that they're of roughly equivalent trade value.

On Bieksa v. Phaneuf. I just don't buy those "advanced" stats. A bunch of guys trying to be the Bill James of the NHL. The problem is that hockey is a much more teammate-dependent game and individual performance can't really be broken down beyond goals, assists, sort of +/-, and then the various eye tests (skating, passing, shooting, etc.). Bieksa's a guy who, IMO, has always had an unjustified "tough guy" billing. He's had serious inconsistency issues, being this team's whipping boy on multiple years. Not a great skater, not a great shot, not a great passer. Decent in all, not great. His leadership skills are evident, as is his personality, which is why he's (at the moment) so well-liked - but, given the pattern of his career, it would not surprise me one bit to see him become this team's whipping boy once again, at some point throughout the tenure of his next contract.

Corsi is like an advanced plus minus. You should read a bit about them. They are actually a lot more accurate than an accumulation stat. Corsi is like a shot generation plus minus, and can also have quality of competition factored in. You should look in to advanced stats, because that's what the GM's are using these days cause they're more accurate to the individual, and less indicative of the team he plays on.
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#1195 oldnews

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:50 AM

I was making an example of the element of bias. Most Vancouver fans think that Luongo is pretty good value, while Lecavalier's an albatross. My guess is that most Tampa Bay fans would think the inverse of the two.


I think you've oversimplified things.

Here is how Canucks fans are perceived in our neighbouring province of Alberta - arguably the best source of a counterpoint given their proximity and dislike for us - and usually the source of our best rivalries, when their teams aren't actually pathetic also-rans... :bigblush:

http://www.sportsnet...tor_on_canucks/

Here's a sample:

"Please excuse our inattentiveness to your ever-growing needs. We'll start shopping for a gift immediately.
What's that? The baby needs a new goaltender?
Well, sure ... But we thought you already had a Canadian Olympic team starter, complete with the Vezina and Jennings dress-up bundle. Can't we just send along the camper? Or the puppy waterpark set?
Oh, that's not good enough for the Vancouver baby? They want more than that? We see."

Spector likes to 'troll' us, but do you see the point? Outside Vancouver, there is a perception that Vancouver is full of childish whiners who are never happy, where nothing is ever good enough, where the city can't stop complaining about their own players...

I rarely agree with Spector, but I find him entertaining, and on this point I think he is spot on.

If you read the Province on a regular basis, for example, you will see exactly what he is talking about.

The norm here is to devalue the home team - it's players and coaches are never good enough - there are always endless better options everywhere else. Case in point - the back to back President's trophies (uh, they mean nothing, I know) is a team that could allegedly be improved by whatever Leafs leftovers, cap dumps and b-grade roster players on the worst regular season team (the only thing to judge them by) in the NHL - many people here would be happy with whatever the Canucks could possibly manage to pry loose for the mere Luongo.

Whiners, cry babies, complainers and people who devalue their own players would seem to be the norm here.
People who look realistically at the value of maligned players - the exception.
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#1196 oldnews

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:59 AM

Very true - I recall Lecavalier making noise about not wanting to be moved to Montreal. It's very unfortunate, but I think he's content with the Florida life of big (tax-free) dollars and relative anonymity.


If that is true, what does that say about his drive, character, will to win? Doesn't want to play in a hockey market. I understand why a french guy may not want the pressure cooker of Montreal, but is that kind of floating-on-a-fat-wallet on a sunny beach in comfort likely to improve the Canucks? Some people here complained ceaselessly about offering a guy like Doan, who happens to fit exactly the profile of the kind of player the Canucks need in the present, a two year contract worth millions less than Lecavalier would make. Doan is a hungry player who has never won, with drive, loyalty, leadership qualities, a strong physical two-way game, etc. Lecavalier? What's he got left to prove?
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#1197 oldnews

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:31 AM

On Bieksa v. Phaneuf. I just don't buy those "advanced" stats.

in the entire NHL in TOI last year, Dion Phaneuf 6th.


Ok, you seem to like the simpler scoring stats - let's look at some simpler stats then.

Dion Phaneuf led the Leafs in pp ice time - a whopping 67.5% pp toi - he managed 44 points.

Kevin Bieksa had 31.2% pp toi - the lowest % of pp ice time of all NHL defensemen in the top 20 in scoring - he had 44 points.

Phaneuf's situational advantages clearly didn't translate - playing with point a game forwards on the Leafs top pp unit...

Clearly he is a significantly weaker five on five player.

Dan Hamhius had 33.3% and 38 points (not to mention a second consecutive +28 season).
Alex Edler 61.1% - 49 points.

If you get into the advanced stats, they qualify, at greater depth, why Phaneuf would be a third pairing blueliner in Vancouver, playing behind Hamhius and Edler.

The people who select the Norris trophy winner would seem to agree - and that doesn't bother to factor in the bang for your buck factor, which clearly tips the scales very heavily in favour of Vancouver's existing blueliners.

If Phaneuf were able to play the right side (which he can't - he's nowhere near as adept or versatile as a guy like Garrison), at more than 2 million less of a cap hit, he'd still have to fight tooth and nail for a top 4 spot in Vancouver. I'd prefer Garrison going forward - hands down a better two-way player with shut down quality, a similar big shot, and a headier game. Garrison played significantly less pp time - 43.6% and a full minute less per game then Phaneuf - to come up with his 16 goals - you see, Garrison't time was balanced out also playing significant shut down minutes - as he had the year before. But in the end, it's mute, because in reality Phaneuf would have to compete with Hamhius and Edler for a left side spot - where he's clearly place third.
In fantasy, Phaneuf is a hard sell, in reality, he is a gross misfit.

Edited by oldnews, 16 November 2012 - 11:48 AM.

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#1198 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:05 PM

If that is true, what does that say about his drive, character, will to win? Doesn't want to play in a hockey market. I understand why a french guy may not want the pressure cooker of Montreal, but is that kind of floating-on-a-fat-wallet on a sunny beach in comfort likely to improve the Canucks? Some people here complained ceaselessly about offering a guy like Doan, who happens to fit exactly the profile of the kind of player the Canucks need in the present, a two year contract worth millions less than Lecavalier would make. Doan is a hungry player who has never won, with drive, loyalty, leadership qualities, a strong physical two-way game, etc. Lecavalier? What's he got left to prove?


Yes you are right. Great talent gone to waste in the swamp. With his refusal to the Habs, he garnered much local hate and contempt. His desire, allegiance and credibility were questioned as well as having rumors of him bein on steroids; Montreal fans destroyed him nonetheless.
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#1199 King of the ES

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:23 PM

If that is true, what does that say about his drive, character, will to win? Doesn't want to play in a hockey market. I understand why a french guy may not want the pressure cooker of Montreal, but is that kind of floating-on-a-fat-wallet on a sunny beach in comfort likely to improve the Canucks? Some people here complained ceaselessly about offering a guy like Doan, who happens to fit exactly the profile of the kind of player the Canucks need in the present, a two year contract worth millions less than Lecavalier would make. Doan is a hungry player who has never won, with drive, loyalty, leadership qualities, a strong physical two-way game, etc. Lecavalier? What's he got left to prove?


Sure. And that's part of why I never proposed that the Canucks go after him. I've said the above paragraph repeatedly, that he's a transformed Floridian now.

That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be a lot of teams that would have interest, should he decide to want to play elsewhere.
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#1200 King of the ES

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

Ok, you seem to like the simpler scoring stats - let's look at some simpler stats then.

Dion Phaneuf led the Leafs in pp ice time - a whopping 67.5% pp toi - he managed 44 points.

Kevin Bieksa had 31.2% pp toi - the lowest % of pp ice time of all NHL defensemen in the top 20 in scoring - he had 44 points.

Phaneuf's situational advantages clearly didn't translate - playing with point a game forwards on the Leafs top pp unit...


Key word is in bold. The Toronto Maple Leafs are simply terrible. I'm pretty confident that neither Hamhuis, nor Bieksa, nor (especially not) Edler, would have similar stats on the Leafs that they do on the Canucks. Phaneuf on Vancouver's PP would be scary.
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